Tired of the Big LIE

[JesusistheChrist]

And there you have it friends, a person who states he doesn't sin but shows his sin first hand right here! JIS shows contempt for others by looking down his prideful nose and through his prideful heart rather than bearing fruit of the Spirit -- kindness, gentleness, humility. We who are on bended knee know we are sinners, but not our 21st Century Pharisee.

That's why God hates works salvation... it's the biggest puffer upper I've ever seen. It's also the reason I hated Christians before I got saved.

You do realize that Utah lied about me, right? I've made more than 900 posts on this forum and I challenge Utah, you or any other bearer or supporter of false witness to cite where I ever said that I don't sin. We all know who the father of lies is, don't we? And his children behave just like him...and you still hate Christians...but agree with deceivers.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Dear Brother, do you realize what a powerful statement you've just made? It is utterly heartbreaking to think Christians instill hate in others. Imagine how God grieves over this.

I rejoice that you overcame their shortfalls. God bless you!

...said the guy who lies about Christians.

Hypocrite.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You think this scripture proves you right?

You need to practice as you preach, and use scripture to interpret scripture.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Good scriptures so why all the fuss toward me, as these scriptures you posted say exactly what I have said all along. That you can not live in willful sins and still be saved unto eternal life. The only difference is between the two of us is I think that you misuse the scriptures in 1 John to believe you are completely sin free no matter what you do, and I take the full context to say as long as you stay walking in total love (Christ) you would not commit a sin because sin is based on bad and wrong doings toward others and self.
If you do sin you take yourself out of fellowship with Him, and if you chose to repent/confess that sin you regain your fellowship. If you however give into that sin fully your relationship with Him is completely severed as you have chosen to serve your original true master the flesh (sins).......

 

[3Scoreand10]

The mentality behind thinking that we can be perfect is what creates alcoholism, sex addiction eating disorders and a whole host of problems in people. We are free to struggle. All we have to do is struggle well. I don't need to be "good".....nor am I, without Jesus.....I am simply loved. This argument is fruitless and frankly is an unwise thing to participate in any longer, as far as I am concerned. You perfecto pushers hurt people.

I agree.
I have dealt with people who gave up on trying to serve God because of these people and their heresy.
They were taught that they must not sin to keep their salvation or/and were taught that a saved person did not sin.
Although their life changed for the better, the fact that the flesh continued to sin, they came to the conclusion that they could never be or keep their salvation, so they gave up and returned to a worldly life.

 

[newbirth]

Any comment on this Jason? You were trying to tell me that abstaining from sin is what allowed me to walk in the spirit.

Christ abstained from sin and no sin can abide in him....you cannot abide in Christ and sin.....how do you walk in the Spirit with sin???
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[kennethcadwell]

[/COLOR]
Just to make it clear to anyone reading - From post #553 - "Salvation is based on our belief in Jesus Christ - God's grace through our faith in Christ is what brings about salvation.

God knew we would not be "perfect" that is why Jesus Christ is our advocate - our defense attorney - and is why we have provisions such as 1 John 1:9. It is why we needed a Savior in the first place. Forsaking sin is NOT a requirement for salvation.

Jesus Christ came to save sinners - we do not clean ourselves up first - that is what I am meaning by "Forsaking sin is NOT a requirement for salvation. We come to Christ just as we are - sinners in need of a savior. The so-called cleaning up comes AFTER salvation although spiritually before God - I am righteous, I am justified, I am sanctified, I have been redeemed, I have been sealed with the holy Spirit. Where? In the flesh - NOPE but in that new man that God has created in me when I was born again. The flesh part is WORK - during my walk, my fellowship - there are things that I will have to work on and some things may not come easy while others will just drop away. I will not be perfect until Christ returns and rids me of this body of death.

repentance, baptism, and confession - And to me that is all rolled up into one because I would never have come to Christ in the first place if I didn't fall on my face as a sinner in of a savior.

I hope there are some that do understand what I meant when I said "forsaking sin is NOT a requirement for salvation."

Just as I am without one plea . . .
But that thy blood was shed for me and that thou bidst me come to thee
O Lamb of God, I come . . . I come.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

Salvation is based on our belief in the Lord Jesus Christ !!!

Nobody is denying this, or at least they shouldn't be. However the part of believing in Him is not just He existed, died on the cross to give us remission of sins, and rose on the third day. There is more to that than this, as Jesus says clearly that one who believes in Him hears what He says and does it.
Follows all of His teachings, commands, and walking properly in the Spirit in love, forgiveness, and mercy. You can not say ones walk does not matter about salvation, because the bible makes it clear that if one is walking contrary to what the Lord said they are not His. In other words not truly born again in the Spirit !!!
Confession for future sins that are committed still have to be made in order to be cleansed of that unrighteousness by the Lord. Unless one falsely believes they never sin again at all.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I agree.
I have dealt with people who gave up on trying to serve God because of these people and their heresy.
They were taught that they must not sin to keep their salvation or/and were taught that a saved person did not sin.
Although their life changed for the better, the fact that the flesh continued to sin, they came to the conclusion that they could never be or keep their salvation, so they gave up and returned to a worldly life.

I want to ask you a question then.
Do you not believe the bible when it says exactly that the Holy Spirit was sent as our helper to guide us away from sinning and them controlling our lives ?

 

[psychomom]

I agree.
I have dealt with people who gave up on trying to serve God because of these people and their heresy.
They were taught that they must not sin to keep their salvation or/and were taught that a saved person did not sin.
Although their life changed for the better, the fact that the flesh continued to sin, they came to the conclusion that they could never be or keep their salvation, so they gave up and returned to a worldly life.

well, that's sad!

the old 'escalator of progress' lie, eh?
the Christian life is an escalator of progress wherein we just keep getting better?

when in reality, it's more like a dance for most of us...
three steps forward, two steps back, at times.
while we wait patiently for God to conform us to the image of His Son.
it's He who is faithful, not we. ♥

 

[Sirk]

well, that's sad!

the old 'escalator of progress' lie, eh?
the Christian life is an escalator of progress wherein we just keep getting better?

when in reality, it's more like a dance for most of us...
three steps forward, two steps back, at times.
while we wait patiently for God to conform us to the image of His Son.
it's He who is faithful, not we. ♥

i assumed this is what he meant.

 

[psychomom]

i assumed this is what he meant.

i assumed the same.

i only meant what people go through who are taught those things is sad.

 

[kennethcadwell]

well, that's sad!

the old 'escalator of progress' lie, eh?
the Christian life is an escalator of progress wherein we just keep getting better?

when in reality, it's more like a dance for most of us...
three steps forward, two steps back, at times.
while we wait patiently for God to conform us to the image of His Son.
it's He who is faithful, not we. ♥

I think it comes down to more of the fact if somebody fell back away with that type of thinking, then they were still young in the faith and did not have a very good support group around them. That there is the sad case of reality, of people using a scare tactic in their teaching, but not showing any true love in their teaching. I would say the fault is in the teaching they were under and not the doctrine itself. As Apostle Paul used three steps in his teaching, warnings in the dangers of sins to believers, lifting them up and esteeming them with Gods word and love, and then constantly following up with them in love to see to they continue to walk properly in the faith.

 

[3Scoreand10]

I want to ask you a question then.
Do you not believe the bible when it says exactly that the Holy Spirit was sent as our helper to guide us away from sinning and them controlling our lives ?

Yes I agree.
But what some do not understand is that some have a much mor difficult of resisting temtation than others.
Some have been raised in an ungodly home, have married ungodly people, and have ungodly friends.
Some of us are stronger that others.
When you teach a person that once they are saved they will not sin, or can resist the temptation and if they do sin God will take back his gift of salvation, they can not deal with it and just quit trying.
As I said, I have delt with people who were so confused and upset they even thought about ending their life.
They try to be perfect and sinless like you and Jason, and when they fail, they give up.
You false teaching is very dangerous to some people.

 

[psychomom]

I think it comes down to more of the fact if somebody fell back away with that type of thinking, then they were still young in the faith and did not have a very good support group around them. That there is the sad case of reality, of people using a scare tactic in their teaching, but not showing any true love in their teaching. I would say the fault is in the teaching they were under and not the doctrine itself. As Apostle Paul used three steps in his teaching, warnings in the dangers of sins to believers, lifting them up and esteeming them with Gods word and love, and then constantly following up with them in love to see to they continue to walk properly in the faith.

i'm going to respectfully disagree with you, Kenneth. (i know...shocker! lol)
the problem is both the youth of the believer AND the doctrine.

why do you suppose the Lord gave us warnings about sin in His Word?
it isn't because He loves us more when we don't sin, or loves us less when we do.
(thank God forever!)

 

[newbirth]

I do repent all the time and I bear good fruit, but I make mistakes. I'm not without sin.

if you confess and repent of your sins....do you still have sins or are they all forgiven???...if all your sins are forgiven ...you are without sin...or are you not?.....so when you find out you are without sin... do you go and deliberately sin so that you cannot be without sin...to prove your case...

 

[Jeff_56]

re 612(in case someone else posts in the meantime)
while false teaching might be dangerous to some people, your post is even more dangerous, as people don't find out HOW they can be saved.
if anyone trusts in themselves, then, absolutely - they have failed already.
jesus told the disciples the exact same thing.

and he told them, as always, that if they trust their heavenly father to accomplish the change in their life - salvation and everything associated with salvation , including freedom from sin and from the power of sin, from the power of the devil, from the power of religion, from the power of demons, and so on --- all the freedoms freely given by father in christ jesus,
then this is all already as good as done, "it is finished" you might say, as YAHWEH always keeps and guards His Word and His Own.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Finally. The cat is out of the bag.

On one hand you just admitted that we cannot live any way we like.

But on the other hand you say,

"1. You cannot stop all sin."​

Yet Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. If Jesus believed that you cannot stop all sin, then he would have never said this. No man can be perfect as the Father according to you. But Jesus says otherwise.

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us.

Funny, yuo claim your not perfect. and have not fulfilled the law. So you are really no different than me.

You also say,

"2. You have no power to even change from sin."​

Ezekiel 36:26-27 essentially says "I willl give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you ... And cause you to walk in my statutes."

Who am I going to believe? You or the passage in Ezekiel?

Believe Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 essentially says "I willl give you a new heart and a new spirit I will put within you ... And cause you to walk in my statutes."

then learn how to read. Ezekial says it is God who CAUSES US TO WALK. It is his power. not our own.. Nice try though.

As for number 3, you are saying I will never be perfect, but as I said before, Jesus tells us to be perfect and Scripture says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

So your perfect? You have fulfilled the law? (moral perfection?)

Have you made it? Has anyone made it? Paul said he did not make it. so I guess he is going to hell?

dude, you are lost. And you claim yuo are not working to earn salvation?

Then again, God said he will cause you to walk. you deny this, and say you do it under your own power.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternal life is one that involves spiritual life now, but it will also continue on for all eternity one day in a new resurrected body.

Eternal life is eternal life.

You can have it right now. Jesus said so. John said so. And paul said so (paul also said it was a gift, which means it can not be earned)

If it does nto last forever (ie, if one who has eternal life can die again) then Jesus lied in John 6. and scripture is a facad, and we have no hope. because God is a liar.

Your hope is in how good you are, and your ability to not fall into sin.

My hope is in eternal life, which God, who can not lie, promised before time began.

 

[Sirk]

Yes I agree.
But what some do not understand is that some have a much mor difficult of resisting temtation than others.
Some have been raised in an ungodly home, have married ungodly people, and have ungodly friends.
Some of us are stronger that others.
When you teach a person that once they are saved they will not sin, or can resist the temptation and if they do sin God will take back his gift of salvation, they can not deal with it and just quit trying.
As I said, I have delt with people who were so confused and upset they even thought about ending their life.
They try to be perfect and sinless like you and Jason, and when they fail, they give up.
You false teaching is very dangerous to some people.

This is so true and a great comment. Some peoples struggles are unfathomable things to deal with. How heartless it is for someone to tell them they must be a failure cuz they can't instantly overcome their hardships. I wonder how many people have killed themselves because of the teachings of these perfecto pushers???????????

I would say they should be ashamed of themselves for doing so much damage to someones psyche but they won't..... until they are shown thru circumstance in their own life. I think everybody has their own lessons that they end up learning the hard way.....or not.

 

[kennethcadwell]

i'm going to respectfully disagree with you, Kenneth. (i know...shocker! lol)
the problem is both the youth of the believer AND the doctrine.

why do you suppose the Lord gave us warnings about sin in His Word?
it isn't because He loves us more when we don't sin, or loves us less when we do.
(thank God forever!)

He gave us warnings because our sins separate us from Him.
This is why the Lord was sent, so that we can have a way to be reconciled to God by receiving remission of our sins.
This is done by following the standard to repent of them, get baptized, and confess future sins while walking in love. The bible especially through the words of Paul more than once state that we are called to walk in righteousness. Walking in habitual sins is not walking in righteousness, as the bible states all sin is unrighteousness.
The bible clearly says the Holy Spirit was sent to help and guide us in our walk, and if a person continues in their sinful lifestyle they are not born again of the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.


His word does not confirm to us, as we are to be molded and walk as He walked confirming our ways to His.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you even hear yourself? I have told you I don't believe in Works Savlation and yet you are saying I am just like them.

Yeah I do. When I hear you speak. I here the same words they spoke. You say the same things, the words may change some, but it is the same story.

Again, You can say it till you turn blue, if your words do not teach it, then your words have no meaning.

Let me ask you a question. Are you angry right now?

Why would I be angry? I am secure in my faith, My belief, and I know where I will go for all eternity, No one can take that from me, because my eternity is not based on me, or how good I am, or my ability to do good works (for I can do nothing of my own, just like jesus could do nothing of his own, but it was God who worked in him)

I say this because discussing the truth should not get you upset. You should be at peace in your discussion and you should desire to love me even if you disagree with me. But I can't see how we disagree because you just repeated the same thing I agreed with in other posts. But because I am against OSAS, I believe you cannot see straight, my friend. I say this not to get you upset even more, but I say this for you to pray about it.

Pray about what? I am trying to help you. I lived in your world once, I was saved from it, Yuo have not shown me anything I have not heard, and even believed at one point in my life.

You say the same thing I have heard for years from so many people. I read about these same people in scripture. and I lived it myself, If anything I am sad, because you would rather puff yourself up. excuse the sin in your life. then come to the throne of Grace, repent, and give your eternity completely to God.

Until you do I am afraid you will never understand my belief.