Job's Heart Condition

[oyster67]

Do you think Job, for the most part, was an innocent man in need of vindication, or do you think he was a sinner in need of God's forgiveness?

 

[Rudimental]

Job was an innocent man. God said to satan "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." Thats why He chose him. We can learn a great great deal from Job.

What makes you say that or think that he was a sinner? He was a sinner in the sense that we are ALL sinners since Eve's fall in the garden of Eden. He was a righteous man, faithful in God who knew that there is nothing more important to a mans life than pleasing God.

Amen.

 

[4enlightment]

Do you think Job, for the most part, was an innocent man in need of vindication, or do you think he was a sinner in need of God's forgiveness?

Job was a sinner, but the sins that he has committed were blameless or understandable. In the laws it says that any members of your household that has sinned against God must be cast out or away; but then if the ones that has violated, must sacrifice an offering to God from their own flock for redemption or to atone from their sin, not someone else's flock.

Matthew 12:11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness in this verse means making right choices, and which the pharisees were making a lot of wrong choices, especially on the Sabbath.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Do you think Job, for the most part, was an innocent man in need of vindication, or do you think he was a sinner in need of God's forgiveness?

Seeing how the LORD Himself rebuked Job out of the whirlwind and seeing how Job abhorred himself and repented before the LORD in sackcloth and ashes, I'd go with option #2:

Job chapter 42

[1] Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
[2] I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
[3] Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
[4] Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
[5] I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
[6] Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

 

[Sophia]

God Himself called Job righteous and blameless.
I wouldn't argue with that One.

Job fulfilled the trials, by being blameless during the first, and by not cursing God in the second. The devil lost both bets.
However, Job did end up making a legal case against God for mistreatment, and fell into "rebellion" during the last trial. Up until that section, he had been blameless.
Notice in the end, that Job repented, and submitted to God, but never took back his legal case. He certainly expects vindication on Judgement Day, through his Redeemer.

 

[Sophia]

All the "friends" of Job spoke wrongly about Job and about God, and God rebuked them.... but the last speaker, who was simply a young passerby, spoke rightly of God, and judged Job rightly, and was not rebuked by God.

 

[DesiredHaven]

God Himself called Job righteous and blameless.

I wouldn't argue with that One.

Job fulfilled the trials, by being blameless during the first, and by not cursing God in the second. The devil lost both bets.
However, Job did end up making a legal case against God for mistreatment, and fell into "rebellion" during the last trial. Up until that section, he had been blameless.
Notice in the end, that Job repented, and submitted to God, but never took back his legal case. He certainly expects vindication on Judgement Day, through his Redeemer.

I am probably more inclined to agree with Sophia's overall perspective on this one.

 

[gotime]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.

And in many things we all stumble, it is in word there, and in Job that was said of him at the start of his trial

I see what JesusIsTheChrist has pointed out

And here at the finish after that also

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

At least there the LORD points out "spoken of me" there

Although I know what JITC will typically point out with Job's own abhoring himself and repenting there, I think that perfect (thereafter) could probably be challenged (if it were in word, afterwards) rather then from the start.

I mean... You know how it goes on the boards, it will be flung back and forth

Well, we are told to behold the patience (or perserverance) of Job not so much his perfection I guess. And as tribulation worketh patience and Job had plenty of it.

He just might not have been that perfect in word towards the end of the matter but the LORD was still merciful.

He was put through this without cause

 

[Sophia]

And in many things we all stumble, it is in word there, and in Job that was said of him at the start of his trial

I see what JesusIsTheChrist has pointed out

And here at the finish after that also

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

At least there the LORD points out "spoken of me" there

Although I know what JITC will typically point out with Job's own abhoring himself and repenting there, I think that perfect (thereafter) could probably be challenged (if it were in word, afterwards) rather then from the start.

I mean... You know how it goes on the boards, it will be flung back and forth

Well, we are told to behold the patience (or perserverance) of Job not so much his perfection I guess. And as tribulation worketh patience and Job had plenty of it.

He just might not have been that perfect in word towards the end of the matter but the LORD was still merciful.

He was put through this without cause

Oh, there was a cause! It just had nothing to do with Job's behaviour.
Like in John 9, this suffering occured so that the works of God could be displayed in Job. Think of the display given in God's response to Job, and the display of grace and mercy afterwards.

But I think Job may have a good legal case. Which brings us to know that we can bring our complaints to God, but are not to fall into rebellion when we do so... and repent when we do fall into it.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Oh, there was a cause! It just had nothing to do with Job's behaviour.
Like in John 9, this suffering occured so that the works of God could be displayed in Job. Think of the display given in God's response to Job, and the display of grace and mercy afterwards.

But I think Job may have a good legal case. Which brings us to know that we can bring our complaints to God, but are not to fall into rebellion when we do so... and repent when we do fall into it.

What I meant by without cause was what the LORD had said here

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Satan desired to sift Simon as well.

I do believe our faith is tried, as Jesus was led of the Spirit also to be tempted of Satan, and that we can draw comfort from the scriptures through what Job had gone through and how the LORD was merciful and restored him.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

God Himself called Job righteous and blameless.
I wouldn't argue with that One.

Job fulfilled the trials, by being blameless during the first, and by not cursing God in the second. The devil lost both bets.
However, Job did end up making a legal case against God for mistreatment, and fell into "rebellion" during the last trial. Up until that section, he had been blameless.
Notice in the end, that Job repented, and submitted to God, but never took back his legal case. He certainly expects vindication on Judgement Day, through his Redeemer.

How did Job allegedly "never take back his legal case" when his "legal case" is the very thing which the LORD rebuked him for and he himself said:

Job chapter 42

[1] Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
[2] I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
[3] Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
[4] Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
[5] I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
[6] Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

???

 

[JesusistheChrist]

All the "friends" of Job spoke wrongly about Job and about God, and God rebuked them.... but the last speaker, who was simply a young passerby, spoke rightly of God, and judged Job rightly, and was not rebuked by God.

Exactly.

Job had lamented that there was no "daysman" or "umpire" or "mediator" between him and God who could lay his hand upon both of them or mediate between the two...

Job chapter 9

[32] For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
[33] Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

...and Elihu told Job that he was there according to Job's wish or that he was going to mediate between God and Job in God's stead:

"Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (Job 33:6)

IOW, Elihu is a type of Christ in this account in that he is a mediator between God and man and, as you rightly noted, God rebuked Job's three friends, but he never rebuked Elihu because Elihu's testimony was spot on. What then did Elihu repeatedly address with Job? Well, he repeatedly addressed PRIDE with Job as the same was Job's problem and the same is what Job ultimately repented of. Elihu tore Job's "legal case" against God to pieces...and rightly so. I'll be happy to point out the same in scripture if need be.

 

[Sophia]

How did Job allegedly "never take back his legal case" when his "legal case" is the very thing which the LORD rebuked him for and he himself said:

Job chapter 42

[1] Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
[2] I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
[3] Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
[4] Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
[5] I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
[6] Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

???

In that passage, does he pull back his legal statement? No, but he submits to God, and turns from rebellion?

Also, notice God's response to Job's accusation. God never defends His actions against Job. He only displays His power by examining creation. Not once does God make excuse or apology for the plight of Job.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job_2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jas 3:2 For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.

Keep reading.

After the first two chapters of Job, Job REPEATEDLY "sinned with his lips" and the LORD ultimately rebuked him for the same and Job eventually abhorred himself and repented in sackcloth and ashes for the same.

 

[Sophia]

Exactly.

Job had lamented that there was no "daysman" or "umpire" or "mediator" between him and God who could lay his hand upon both of them or mediate between the two...

Job chapter 9

[32] For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
[33] Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

...and Elihu told Job that he was there according to Job's wish or that he was going to mediate between God and Job in God's stead:

"Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay." (Job 33:6)

IOW, Elihu is a type of Christ in this account in that he is a mediator between God and man and, as you rightly noted, God rebuked Job's three friends, but he never rebuked Elihu because Elihu's testimony was spot on. What then did Elihu repeatedly address with Job? Well, he repeatedly addressed PRIDE with Job as the same was Job's problem and the same is what Job ultimately repented of. Elihu tore Job's "legal case" against God to pieces...and rightly so. I'll be happy to point out the same in scripture if need be.

Woah! Very interesting connection.
Let me reexamine this.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

In that passage, does he pull back his legal statement? No, but he submits to God, and turns from rebellion?

Also, notice God's response to Job's accusation. God never defends His actions against Job. He only displays His power by examining creation. Not once does God make excuse or apology for the plight of Job.

Are you serious?

Again, look at what Elihu said to Job. Elihu tore Job's "legal case" to pieces and he did so as a "daysman" or "mediator" between God and Job or in God's stead and the LORD never rebuked Elihu for the same.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Woah! Very interesting connection.
Let me reexamine this.

Please do.

Again, what Elihu said to Job was said "in God's stead" or "in God's place" and Elihu tore Job's "legal case" to pieces.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

What I meant by without cause was what the LORD had said here

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Satan desired to sift Simon as well.

I do believe our faith is tried, as Jesus was led of the Spirit also to be tempted of Satan, and that we can draw comfort from the scriptures through what Job had gone through and how the LORD was merciful and restored him.

Although Satan sought to move God against Job "without cause", this does not necessarily mean that God Himself had no "cause" in what He allowed. IOW, although Satan's accusations against Job might have been off base, this doesn't mean that God Himself didn't see something in Job (PRIDE) which needed to be dealt with.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

And in many things we all stumble, it is in word there, and in Job that was said of him at the start of his trial

I see what JesusIsTheChrist has pointed out

And here at the finish after that also

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

At least there the LORD points out "spoken of me" there

Although I know what JITC will typically point out with Job's own abhoring himself and repenting there, I think that perfect (thereafter) could probably be challenged (if it were in word, afterwards) rather then from the start.

I mean... You know how it goes on the boards, it will be flung back and forth

Well, we are told to behold the patience (or perserverance) of Job not so much his perfection I guess. And as tribulation worketh patience and Job had plenty of it.

He just might not have been that perfect in word towards the end of the matter but the LORD was still merciful.

He was put through this without cause

Job spoke what was right in the first two chapters and then went on a totally unjustifiable rant against God in which he repeatedly sought to justify himself while simultaneously condemning God. Job ended his rant, after being rebuked by both Elihu, a type of Christ, and the LORD Himself, by putting his hand over his mouth, acknowledging that he had spoken wrongfully and abhorring himself and repenting in sackcloth and ashes. As such, how can you say that Job was "put through this without cause"?

There was most definitely "a cause" and if we read both Elihu's rebuke of Job and the LORD's rebuke of Job, then that "cause" becomes crystal clear:

God was dealing with Job's PRIDE.

Again, I'll be more than happy to cite numerous verses from the ordeal in regard to the same if need be.