SAVED BY WORKS

[Mitspa]

Paul said he labored more than his brehtren but it was not his own doing but the grace of God that was within him. I talk plenty about how it is the Lord that does the good work within a person and it is not us. However, avoiding in doing evil or sin is not a work, though. That's repentance. That's the basics. Confessing your sin and forsaking it is repenting. This is the foundation of how you stay right with the Lord. There is no such thing as future sin is forgiven you. That leads people to think they can sin and still be saved if you do not show them the disclaimer that God's people are to live holy.

Well again talking about obedience and avoiding sin in context of being a brother to edify others looks much different than what some of you guys do on this forum...show some folks you love them and edify them in their faith and then you will find a place in correction...If they need it? But the fact is that most of the believers on this forum probably live more godly than you?

 

[Jason0047]

Obeying God does not save us, but He won't save us unless we obey Him.

More like... God changes us from being a caterpillar on into being a butterfly that can fly. Before we were not capable of flying. But after the transformation, all things have become new. We have a new heart and a new spirit and God lives within us and does the good work within us. We can't pat ourselves on the back and gives ourselves credit for flying. God was the one who gave us the transformation or the change. So all glory goes to Jesus Christ and never ourselves.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Your avoidance of my questions lowers your credibility. I would have no problem answering your questions in what I believe. To me it suggests that you are afraid that your doctrine or belief will not hold up to what the Word of God actually says. Until you answer the questions. That is what I am going to think. Your not caring what I think and allowing me to continue in falsehood is not brotherly love (Which is what Christianity is all about). So again. Answer the questions if you dare, my friend.

What I found was that Mitspa doesn't answer my questions and I came to the conclusion that it is not because he is dishonest but due to a lack of knowledge.

I do believe he is sincere but misguided.

 

[Jason0047]

Well again talking about obedience and avoiding sin in context of being a brother to edify others looks much different than what some of you guys do on this forum...show some folks you love them and edify them in their faith and then you will find a place in correction...If they need it? But the fact is that most of the believers on this forum probably live more godly than you?

This is just speculation with no real proof. Again, answer my questions from a third person perspective. If what you believe holds any weight with Scripture than we can rejoice together. But if not, then it is the Word of God that will correct you and not me. For I am nothing. Christ and His Word is everything.

 

[Mitspa]

Look. I don't care about any mud in your personal life. I am not here to dig up dirt on you. You can answer the questions I had given from a third party perspective. You can say....

"A True believer can do this and this.... but he can't do this...etc. etc." ​

I just want to know what you believe. Avoiding my questions makes me think you are not on the level and or being true with me.

Well if you haven't noticed Jason...im not looking for you to approve me...Im trying to make a point about you and others thinking you have a level of godliness that puts you above others on this forum... That you guys think because you quote scripture about obedience that somehow means your obedient ... I think thats a sign your not in God will but very much out of the will of God in relation to other believers.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason,
I apologize for asking this, but can you clarify on this statement because I don't quite understand? Please.

Some Christians falsely believe all sin is forgiven: past, present, and future sin. It is the future sin that I have a problem with. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is a present active thing I have to do in the present with Jesus Christ. If future sin was forgiven me, then 1 John 1:9 would be a verse in the Bible that wouldn't make any sense. Now, if I were to twist 1 John 1:9 (Not really sure how to do that) and or ignore it, and believe future sin is forgiven me, then there would be no incentive for me to live upright and holy before God. In other words, lets say there was a miracle plant (with no side effects) that allowed you to never get fat no matter what you ate. What do you think you are going to do if you took this miracle plant? You are going to eat whatever you want and not worry about the consequences anymore. For example: If breaking the speed limit by just a little on the highways involved 10 thousand dollar fines all of a sudden, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to obey the speed limit on the highways because there is now a major consequence that can effect them.


Side Note:

Oh, and the chastening of the Lord is not enough of a deterrent for people to stop sinning with the thinking they are saved, either. Bad things happen to people regardless if they are a believer or an unbeliever.

 

[Mitspa]

This is just speculation with no real proof. Again, answer my questions from a third person perspective. If what you believe holds any weight with Scripture than we can rejoice together. But if not, then it is the Word of God that will correct you and not me. For I am nothing. Christ and His Word is everything.

Well thats part of the point also...its easy to get on a forum and pretend you obey God and quote scripture to others about obedience ...What I do know is that I have seen with these type people throughout the church, that those who talk about obedience and try to judge others are very often the most ungodly. Even often they are bound in dark sins. So I assume all you guys who preach standards you don't keep are at the least hypocrites and most likely really bound in certain sins.

 

[Jason0047]

Well if you haven't noticed Jason...im not looking for you to approve me...Im trying to make a point about you and others thinking you have a level of godliness that puts you above others on this forum... That you guys think because you quote scripture about obedience that somehow means your obedient ... I think thats a sign your not in God will but very much out of the will of God in relation to other believers.

Again, it's not about me approving of you. It's about me accepting what you believe. If anything you say is even remotely true, you would answer my questions.

 

[Jason0047]

Well thats part of the point also...its easy to get on a forum and pretend you obey God and quote scripture to others about obedience ...What I do know is that I have seen with these type people throughout the church, that those who talk about obedience and try to judge others are very often the most ungodly. Even often they are bound in dark sins. So I assume all you guys who preach standards you don't keep are at the least hypocrites and most likely really bound in certain sins.

Your shooting the messenger instead of explaining the message that you have thats supposed to be better.

 

[Mitspa]

Your shooting the messenger instead of explaining the message that you have thats supposed to be better.

The first message of Jesus Christ was to the hypocrites ...was it not? I don't think some on this forum have gotten that message.. Don't shoot the messenger

 

[cmarieh]

Some Christians falsely believe all sin is forgiven: past, present, and future sin. It is the future sin that I have a problem with. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is a present active thing I have to do in the present with Jesus Christ. If future sin was forgiven me, then 1 John 1:9 would be a verse in the Bible that wouldn't make any sense. Now, if I were to twist 1 John 1:9 (Not really sure how to do that) and or ignored it, and believed future sin was forgiven me, then there would be no incentive for me to living upright and holy before God. In other words, lets say there was a miracle plant (with no side effects) that allowed you to never get fat no matter what you ate. What do you think you are going to do if you took this miracle plant? You are going to eat whatever you want and not worry about the consequences anymore. For example: If breaking the speed limit by just a little on the highways involved 10 thousand dollar fines all of a sudden, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to obey the speed limit on the highways because there is now a major consequence that can effect them.


Side Note:

Oh, and the chastening of the Lord is not enough of a deterrent for people to stop sinning with the thinking they are saved, either. Bad things happen to people regardless if they are a believer or an unbeliever.

Thank you for clarifying it, I understand it better and agree that repentance is turning from the sin to remain obedient to God. However, where I was a bit fuzzy was about future sinning and I believe that Christ died for our sins past, present, and future all we had to do is ask, yet like you said about if we keep committing the same sin there would not be an incentive to live as Christ did if we already assumed that we are forgiven. I appreciate that you explained it in a way I can comprehend it.

 

[Mitspa]

Again, it's not about me approving of you. It's about me accepting what you believe. If anything you say is even remotely true, you would answer my questions.

Jason we have already spent hours talking about true obedience in faith and love, don't pretend you don't have a understanding of what I believe and teach...also this discussion here started about this issue. Don't try to change the subject ..if you want to bail out then bail..its late for me anyway

 

[Jason0047]

Thank you for clarifying it, I understand it better and agree that repentance is turning from the sin to remain obedient to God. However, where I was a bit fuzzy was about future sinning and I believe that Christ died for our sins past, present, and future all we had to do is ask, yet like you said about if we keep committing the same sin there would not be an incentive to live as Christ did if we already assumed that we are forgiven. I appreciate that you explained it in a way I can comprehend it.

You are most welcome.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason we have already spent hours talking about true obedience in faith and love, don't pretend you don't have a understanding of what I believe and teach...also this discussion here started about this issue. Don't try to change the subject ..if you want to bail out then bail..its late for me anyway

I am skeptical of anyone who shoots down others who strive to practice righteousness. I am also skeptical of anyone who does not share their beliefs as I asked in a non-confrontational third person kind of way. Again, it makes me think you are not being entirely truthful with me. But you can correct that by simply answering the questions.

 

[haz]

Have you ceased from sin?

Christians have ceased from sin, as scripture (1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9) states.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

What "sin" are you thinking Christians can still be charged with?

Is it unrighteousness (1John 5:17)?
But our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), not obedience to the law.

Is it transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?
But Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Do you abide in unrepentant sin?

Christians repented of dead works of self-righteousness (sin) when we received Christ.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

This was a once only repentance, Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is what Christian repented of. Thus there is no continual repentance again, and again, and again, as some incorrectly teach.

Do you believe a true believer can do any type of evil or sin habitually as a way of life and still be saved?

What minimum standard of good behaviour (or is it works of the law) are you claiming is needed to be saved?

And can you show details from scripture how "habitual" is determined in regards to sin (I presume you mean transgression of the law, 1John 3:4)?

Is it 7x70 offences?

It's important that we get these details right from scripture because according to the doctrine you follow our salvation depends on how good lifestyle we live.

 

[mailmandan]

You "believe" with your life. Not only with your mouth.

Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. We demonstrate with our life that we truly believe. Faith without works is dead. Faith that is alive in Christ results in producing works.

What did Jesus say to the prostitute?

John 8
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Are you implying here that "in addition" to what Paul said Romans 10:9-10, we must also live sinless perfect lives in order to be saved? Do you claim to be sinless (without fault or defect, flawless) 100% of the time?

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Only unbelievers do not follow Christ, are in darkness and walk in darkness:1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.1 John 1:6 - If we SAY that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth - compare with 1 John 3:10 - does not practice righteousness = child of the devil.
1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

IN CONTRAST TO:

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Children of God are in the light and not in darkness. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.

1 John 2:​Be careful that you do not lose your saltiness or that your eye becomes dark. For if the light that is in you is darkness... How great is that darkness!

Where does it say "lose your saltiness" in 1 John 2 or that your "eye becomes dark?" In 1 John 2:9-11, we read 9 He who SAYS he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. (nothing mentioned about "becomes" darkness but is in darkness until now) 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

 

[john832]

What I found was that Mitspa doesn't answer my questions and I came to the conclusion that it is not because he is dishonest but due to a lack of knowledge.

I do believe he is sincere but misguided.

I do believe you are correct.

 

[Mitspa]

I am skeptical of anyone who shoots down others who strive to practice righteousness. I am also skeptical of anyone who does not share their beliefs as I asked in a non-confrontational third person kind of way. Again, it makes me think you are not being entirely truthful with me. But you can correct that by simply answering the questions.

Jason, your not the judge buddy...like I said I have already explained enough to you in regards to obedience . What I doubt is that you and the others that lecture other members on the forum are really any different than those I described before? As I have found the judgmental types to be very ungodly and almost always under bondage to sin.

 

[Willie-T]

Mitspa,
You are never going to be able to convince people of a love relationship, as long as they can only imagine obeying out of fear.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,
You are never going to be able to convince people of a love relationship, as long as they can only imagine obeying out of fear.

Well lets try to save some of them