SAVED BY WORKS

[SeaBass]

Why Calvinists are wrong:

God does not create evil or do anything that is a mistake. God does not create people just so that they can burn. God created mankind with a free will to choose Him or to not to choose Him. The moment one claims that God forced people to go to Hell against their free will choice is to make God out to be evil (pure and simple). However, God is good and He is not evil. He is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:19 KJV).

Why some Arminians are wrong:

Some Arminians are so die hard to defend "free will" that God plays no part in drawing someone to them and or giving them repentance. This is just not the case. Yes, we have the free will to choose God (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV) but no man can come to the Father unless he draws them (John 6:44 KJV), and no man can repent for it is God that grants someone repentance (2 Timothy 2:25 KJV). Then how do we choose God of our own "free will" if it is God that draws us and grants us repentance? Because God is Eternal and is outside of linear time and knows the future "free will" choices of everyone. God knows those who will accept Him and who will reject Him. For in the Lord's love He gives the damned no excuse for their rebellion against Him because He offered freely the gift of salvation for all people. His loving arms were extended to them but they slapped them away. This way the person who rejects Jesus cannot say to the Lord at the Judgment, "You see, I was already damned because my sins were never paid for." However, this person's sins were paid for because Jesus is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the entire world. They just refused to repent and accept Jesus (i.e. God's love gift) and have condemned themselves to die in their sins (For they refused the sacrifice for their life personally). So they are without excuse.

For the Elect are those who accept the Lord's free love gift of Jesus Christ of their own "free will" choice whereby they are forgiven of their sins against God. God merely knowing their future "free will" choice towards Him had drawn them to Him and granted them repentance. For God Elects us based on His foreknowledge (See verse 2 in: 1 Peter 1:1, 2). God does not make some people to go to Heaven and some people to go to Hell. God does not force anyone into being a certain way. For if God forced us to love Him, it would not longer be true love. It would be a forced love. So it is by free will choice. A free will choice that God is aware of since the beginning of linear time. For God has declared the End from the Beginning (Isaiah 46:10 KJV).

For we exist on a linear time line (within the present). God is Eternal and He exists outside of linear time (Which would place God's existence in living in the past, present, and future).

Anyone that chooses to repent can do so. God "granted" repentance in that He has given man the gift of repentance where men can choose to repent if he so chooses. It is NOT a case where man cannot repent unless God first "regenerates" him so he can then repent, that is Calvinism.

Again, the COMMAND to repent, as in Acts 2:38 implies that man has both the ability within himself and the responsibility to obey that command. No miraculous intervention by God is needed.

Jn 6:45 explains HOW men are drawn...."It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Men are drawn when they are taught, hear and learn, then come to Christ. Simply put: God draws, men come.

"Cometh" is middle deponent, men come of their own will and coming to Christ includes that men choose to repent of their own will. Therefore God's drawing is not some "irresistible" drawing where men have no choice.


You posted "no man can repent for it is God that grants someone repentance"

1) If one can only repent if God "grants" him the ability to repent
2) and it is God's will all men come to repentance
3) then why is it all men will not come to repentance with most being lost?

IF God alone can "grant' men the ability to repent and God does not "grant" all men this ability to repent then God is thwarting His own will in all men coming to repentance.

 

[SeaBass]

Holiness and Good works is the fruit of salvation. It is not the means for salvation. Again, read Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 in prayer again. To believe we are saved by works is to put the cart before the horse.

I do not have the time now to list all the verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation. Yet one verse is Jn 3:16 that puts belief BEFORE salvation and belief is obedience, Jn 3:36, a work, Jn 6:27-29.

Not a single verse say God will save disobedient/unrighteous people who remain in that state. They first must obey/work righteousness THEN they are accepted with God, Acts 10:35; 1 Jn 3:10. It is impossible to get an unrighteous person saved while they contniue to remain in their disobedience/unrighteousness.

 

[Willie-T]

"Belief is obedience?" I've seen some wild stretching of rationalizations on here, but how did you come up with that one?

 

[SeaBass]

You mean submit to YOUR gospel of "water and works" salvation. Here is Paul's point clearly made in Romans 10:3 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. Believes plus what? *Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. What other commands or works do you see mentioned along with BELIEVES?

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation is obeying the gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

Those Jews were lost due to their NOT SUBMITTING/OBEYING God's righteousness. Paul could not have implied it more plainly that obedience/submitting is what would have saved those Jews but they would not obey the gospel.

You avoided this fact that obeying/submitting would have saved these Jews and you run to Rom 1:16 and try to imply "belief only" would have saved them when that verses does not teach such and that idea contradicts Paul saying OBEYING SUBMITTING to God's commands is what would save them.

Those Jews were lost for they would not obey the gospel, would not submit to the gospel. Obeying the gospel requires one do the works of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

Nowhere did Paul say those Jews were lost for they did not have "belief only".

But Paul DID say they were lost for not have obedient works in submitting to the commandments of God.

 

[SeaBass]

Obeying God does not save us, but He won't save us unless we obey Him.

If God does not save us unless we obey, then that necessarily makes obeying a part of our salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

"Belief is obedience?" I've seen some wild stretching of rationalizations on here, but how did you come up with that one?

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Notice how the one who "believeth" is contrasted to the one who "obeyeth not". Believing is obeying and unbelief is disobedience.

 

[mailmandan]

"Belief is obedience?" I've seen some wild stretching of rationalizations on here, but how did you come up with that one?

Tell me about it! Belief is trusting in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31). Multiples acts of obedience which follows is WORKS.

 

[Mitspa]

I do not live in habitual sin as a way of life. Can you say the same? If I sin, I confess of that sin and forsake it with the Lord. Can you say the same? Or do you believe sin is not imputed to you, so you do not need to focus on feeling guilty about sin when you do sin? Again, you do not have to answer my questions personally. You can answer them from a third person perspective. I am just trying to understand what you believe.

What does that mean ...you don't sin as much as so and so? That's not a biblical standard of godliness... The biblical standard is this...

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This is the standard on those in Christ...if you don't live in this standard you are in no position to lecture others.

 

[Willie-T]

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Notice how the one who "believeth" is contrasted to the one who "obeyeth not". Believing is obeying and unbelief is disobedience.

Are you kidding here? Or do you honestly not know what "obey" means in that verse?

 

[Willie-T]

BTW, it's apeitheo... or, basically, "reject" or "rebel against". In other words, fail to trust (believe) in.

 

[SeaBass]

Are you kidding here? Or do you honestly not know what "obey" means in that verse?

The verse is clearly contrasting "believeth" to "obeyeth not" making the implication believing IS obeying. This is not hard to understand.

 

[Mitspa]

Faith and love is obedience ...legalism is not!

 

[SeaBass]

BTW, it's apeitheo... or, basically, "reject" or "rebel against". In other words, fail to trust (believe) in.

"Believe" is pisteuo. In Greek to make it a negative add an "a" to it and you get apisteou or "believe not". Yet, as you noted, John did NOT use apisteuo but used the Greek word apeitheo which literally means "obey not". The KJV missed it by putting "beleiveth not" instead of "obey not".

“This text indicates clearly that belief is not a matter of passive opinion, but decisive and obedient action” (John: Moody Gospel Commentary, Chicago: Moody, 1992, p. 87).

 

[mailmandan]

Those Jews were lost due to their NOT SUBMITTING/OBEYING God's righteousness. Paul could not have implied it more plainly that obedience/submitting is what would have saved those Jews but they would not obey the gospel.

As I already explained, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Acts 10:16). In other words, those Jews simply REFUSED to BELIEVE. Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, (BY WORKS) have not submitted to the righteousness of God (BY FAITH). 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. *Crystal clear.

You avoided this fact that obeying/submitting would have saved these Jews and you run to Rom 1:16 and try to imply "belief only" would have saved them when that verses does not teach such and that idea contradicts Paul saying OBEYING SUBMITTING to God's commands is what would save them.

So you reject Romans 1:16? What other list of requirements (works) do you see Paul adding to BELIEVES in Romans 1:16 and Romans 10:4? Paul did not say submit to God's command's (plural/works) in Romans 10:3. He said submit to the righteousness of God. Choosing to believe the gospel is submitting to God's command to believe the gospel. Notice in Philippians 3:9 that Paul said - ..the righteousness which is from God by FAITH. *NOT BY WORKS.

Those Jews were lost for they would not obey the gospel, would not submit to the gospel. Obeying the gospel requires one do the works of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you are teaching a "different" gospel. Repentance actually precedes believing (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Believing and confessing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS saving belief in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). *Mere mental assent belief plus self reformation plus lip service confession plus water baptism does not equal obeying the gospel. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel and the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) prior to water baptism.

Nowhere did Paul say those Jews were lost for they did not have "belief only".

Here is what Paul said about those Jews in Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. These Jews did not BELIEVE, therefore they were lost. So what is the only word that you see mentioned in Romans 10:4 in connection with - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who _______?

But Paul DID say they were lost for not have obedient works in submitting to the commandments of God.

Show me where Paul said "obedient works" and "submitting to the commandments of God" in Romans 10:3-4.

 

[Jeff_56]

a baby doesn't breathe through its lungs until AFTER IT IS BORN.

but if a baby isn't born, it NEVER BREATHES.

and if a baby BREATHES BEFORE IT IS BORN, it usually gets a bad infection and dies.
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a christian led by Yahweh's Spirit IS NOT LIKE THE WIND UNTIL AFTER IT IS BORN AGAIN.

but if a christian isn't born again, it NEVER SEES THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

and if a person TRIES TO DO SOMETHING SPIRITUAL BEFORE IT IS BORN AGAIN, it dies in sin and trespasses.

if it's not obvious, someone led by Yahweh's Spirit never sins on purpose.
i.e. always let Yahweh lead. not just sometimes.

AS IT IS WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD: if someone willfully willingly walks in darkness, they do not belong to God.
if someone willingly willfully continues in sin, they are liars and the truth is not in them.
if someone does what hasatan says to do, and refuses to repent, their god then is hasatan, not Yahweh.
if someone does what hasatan says to do, and refuses to repent, they are not forgiven.

all very simply summed up by JESUS:
whoever or whatever you obey/ seek to please/ ....... they are your god.
there's no inbetween. no half-way.(half Yahweh's / half hasatan's) .... it's all or nothing.

like it is written "all people are stupid" . and "a few find life". and "almost all end in destruction"

(even though as many as will call on Jesus Name may be saved, few do.) (choose today who you will obey).

If God does not save us unless we obey, then that necessarily makes obeying a part of our salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

As I already explained, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Acts 10:16). In other words, those Jews simply REFUSED to BELIEVE. Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, (BY WORKS) have not submitted to the righteousness of God (BY FAITH). 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. *Crystal clear.

So you reject Romans 1:16? What other list of requirements (works) do you see Paul adding to BELIEVES in Romans 1:16 and Romans 10:4? Paul did not say submit to God's command's (plural/works) in Romans 10:3. He said submit to the righteousness of God. Choosing to believe the gospel is submitting to God's command to believe the gospel. Notice in Philippians 3:9 that Paul said - ..the righteousness which is from God by FAITH. *NOT BY WORKS.

Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you are teaching a "different" gospel. Repentance actually precedes believing (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). Believing and confessing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS saving belief in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). *Mere mental assent belief plus self reformation plus lip service confession plus water baptism does not equal obeying the gospel. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel and the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) prior to water baptism.

Here is what Paul said about those Jews in Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. These Jews did not BELIEVE, therefore they were lost. So what is the only word that you see mentioned in Romans 10:4 in connection with - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who _______?

Show me where Paul said "obedient works" and "submitting to the commandments of God" in Romans 10:3-4.

You do not want to see that submitting/obeying is an action, a work and not some mental assent of the mind.

"Establishing their own righteousness" is a work just as submitting to God's righteousness is also a work. Paul is showing how the former work does not save yet the latter work does save. Submitting to God's righteousness is obviously the work that saves....those that WORKETH righteousness are accepted with God, Acts 10:35.

Rom 10:3---------submitting to God's righteousess>>>>>>saves
Acts 10:35-------working righteousness>>>>>>>>>>>>>accepted with God


The reason Paul did not say those Jews were lost for they "have not a belief only" is because belief only is not what would have saved them but submitting WORKING God's righteousness is what would save them.

So you are avoiding that "submit" means to WORK/OBEY which is the total opposite of a dead belief only.

 

[mailmandan]

BTW, it's apeitheo... or, basically, "reject" or "rebel against". In other words, fail to trust (believe) in.

Amen brother! apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In John 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by failing to (trust) believe.

 

[dcontroversal]

The problem is your definition of believe and faith. We believe with our lives. Our faith is belief + action.

Jesus taught that if we love Him we will keep His commandments. He taught "go and sin no more" Jesus taught that we must abide in Him. Jesus taught that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. He taught that we must clean the inside of the cup. He taught us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. And on and on

I guess you are ignorant of the very first verse I quoted....We believe with our (HEART)<--this is the mind.....I cannot believe you actually posted that...tell me genius....what part of the body has the ability to believe, acknowledge, know, discern ANYTHING........How about USE your BRAIN and come to a good solid understanding as the rest of the body has NO ABILITY to BELIEVE ANYTHING.....

For the record...I cannot believe that someone would actually like a comment that is impossible...I guess it goes with believing works for salvation and the fact that they cannot acknowledge the truth because if they do the will have to reject the HERESY they presently ABIDE IN!

I suggest a study of the words believe and faith...........WOW......!

 

[WheresEnoch]

It's much simpler than you guys are making it.
Not everyone is born again for saying a sinners prayer, those who are born again go through a process of sanctification.
Their desires change and they become a new creation. Anyone who does not desire to be obedient to loving God and others will not be born again.

If you are in continual sin, constantly struggling with yourself to do what you know is right. Then repent, desire and practice obedience(AKA LOVE, obedience is just loving God and people) and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone truly born of the Spirit will not continue practicing sin, because they cannot. They become slaves to righteousness.

 

[dcontroversal]

No doubt and go read post 146 and stand in awe of the unbelievable ignorance found in the side note.........!

Christians have ceased from sin, as scripture (1Pet 4:1, 1John 3:9) states.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

What "sin" are you thinking Christians can still be charged with?

Is it unrighteousness (1John 5:17)?
But our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), not obedience to the law.

Is it transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?
But Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.



Christians repented of dead works of self-righteousness (sin) when we received Christ.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

This was a once only repentance, Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is what Christian repented of. Thus there is no continual repentance again, and again, and again, as some incorrectly teach.



What minimum standard of good behaviour (or is it works of the law) are you claiming is needed to be saved?

And can you show details from scripture how "habitual" is determined in regards to sin (I presume you mean transgression of the law, 1John 3:4)?

Is it 7x70 offences?

It's important that we get these details right from scripture because according to the doctrine you follow our salvation depends on how good lifestyle we live.