SAVED BY WORKS

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

Please do not speak for the Lord Jesus in that way because this is what He said about what it means to believe in Him, and we should let Him speak above our own understanding;

Luke 6:46-49

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them

Jesus does not say believe in Him for salvation is an unactive faith, as He says those who believe and love Him keep, obey, and follow His teachings.

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

[h=1]Luke 12:42-48[/h]42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.

45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Stephen63 · Mar 14, 2015

Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 22:10-16 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. [SUP]11 [/SUP]He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [SUP]13 [/SUP]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [SUP]14[/SUP]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [SUP]16 [/SUP]I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

According to all of Jesus'words about judgement, we are judged according to our works. Is faith there? Sure it is! Faith is what promotes good works.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

But, faith without evidence is no faith at all.
James 2:14-26 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [SUP]17[/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

gotime · Mar 14, 2015

Why is it that people are ok with works that are fruit of Christ in you. unless those works have anything to do with the law then suddenly that's bad?

Ahwatukee · Mar 14, 2015

Because:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it."

And

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone." (Rom.9:30)

Jeff_56 · Mar 14, 2015

gotime said:

as it is written in ephesians, because they are still under the deception of the prince of the power of the air.

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

gotime said:

Some are not even ok with any sort of work at all, and treat all works as a filthy thing.
Yet the bible even says that we are to encourage and urge others to do good work, and James clearly says faith without works is dead. He compares it with the body without the spirit being dead.
Can our physical bodies walk around alive without the spirit in it ? No it can not !!!

Therefore a faith without works can not give eternal life...........
Apostle Paul says godliness (walking properly) is profitable to this life, and eternal life that is to come. (1 Timothy 4:8)

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

Colossians 3:24

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

dcontroversal · Mar 14, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

You are so blind to the truth and to what anyone states that you cannot even see straight...now pay attention.....MY reply was to YOUR HEBREWS 10 REFERENCE.....

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

No you can not because I know who said that on here and it was only tow of you, counting you.
Hebrews 10 clearly says they will face God's judgment (verse 31), and His judgment is the lake of fire which is what verse 27 says a fiery indignation that will devour those against God. Destroyed in the lake of fire !!!

Revelation 2:5 has nothing to do with taking away their authority, as He says when He comes again and they have not repented and returned to Him they will not receive their place in the kingdom of heaven (no salvation). He says they have to overcome to eat from the tree of life ( receive eternal life), if they do not repent they will not get to eat from that tree and will be blotted out and sent to the lake of fire.

MY REPLY
Ignorance seems to pour forth from you on a regular basis......the context IS forsaking the assembling together and in so doing you count the blood of Jesus a common ordinary base thing.....keep working your way and see how far it gets you.....I would drink plenty of water while you are still alive though.....

THOSE who count the blood of JESUS a COMMON ORDINARY BASE THING ARE NOT OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH!

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Well you need to be more specific in your replies to what you are speaking on because you did not say, and we were discussing Revelation 2:5 at that time when you jumped back to another subject.
And even with that being so that you were speaking of Hebrews 10, it still does not take away that Hebrews 10 does refer to salvation. If a person receives the truth of salvation that is in Christ, but continues to live a sinful lifestyle then they are trampling His blood by doing this. They make His blood sacrifice worthless to them, because they refuse to give up their old sinful ways and walk in righteousness/Spirit/light.

Notice how Hebrews 10:19 is speaking of receiving eternal life, as in getting salvation by His blood.
The following verses show what we have to do to receive His remission for our sins. Verse 22 shows faith, repentance, baptism and born again all in one verse. Verse 23 shows keeping our confession in Him without wavering, and the following two say to stir up good works and not forsake the assembling together.
The assembling together is not the main focus though, it is just one part of many in a believers life.

Then it goes into the warning that after this if you continue to willfully/deliberately sin you will stand before God at His judgment and face being sent to the lake of fire.

You want to continue to pick out which parts of the scripture you want and try to make the whole focus on that one area, which it is not even the focus. We had this issue with Jude just the other day, where you stated in disagreeing with me that Jude is only speaking of false teachers. I showed you clearly how that was only one part of what Jude was saying, but the whole context of his epistle Jude gives us in verse 3 where he says he is writing us of things to watch out for that affect our salvation.

kennethcadwell · Mar 14, 2015

dcontroversal said:

You do realize that by being judgmental and condemning to others the bible specifically says not to do, and it also says by doing so you will face the same judgment you are opposing on others. Just to let you know !!!

RememberTheSabbathDay · Mar 14, 2015

Momo10 said:

Preparation day was Friday and then the Sabbath followed as it stated and the Sabbath drew on which is the 7th day of the week. If u look at the word Sabbath it really means 7. Remember God did tell us that men would think to change times and laws. Ask urself what times and laws God is speaking on. The 4th commandment says Remember and its the only one which God tells us to remember. What is the purpose of remembering? What is so important about this day? I dont understand why people won't believe history about Rome changing this day to the vulnerable day of the Sun. God says, He change not. The traditions of men are killing us.

RememberTheSabbathDay · Mar 14, 2015

By the way, was there Jews during creation week that is said that the Sabbath is only for the Jews? Only Adam and Eve were on this planet when God gave man the Sabbath day..Which He said Remember. So how is it that people can justify this day being only for Jews?

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Mar 15, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Faith working by love according to the fruits of the Spirit Kenneth. Our individual physical works don't grant eternal life....... Christ's payment for our sins and belief in Him to save does.

Brother James is not reminding believers to follow traditions of men,dead works of the letter, or any other useless works when he says faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead.
Brother James goes on to give an example of those fruits of the Spirit shining through in his instruction.

Example 1.......James 2:14-16.......love, gentleness, goodness
Example 2.......James 2:21-24....... longsuffering, gentleness, faith,meekness
Example 3.......James 2:25.......gentleness,faith,meekness

Galatians 5:22:26
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Galatians5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

kennethcadwell · Mar 15, 2015

RememberTheSabbathDay said:

You are right to an extent because the Sabbath was not just for the Jews, and that God does not change.
However the bible does show God did make changes from one covenant to another, as in the new covenant we are in all 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws do not apply to us (Acts 15).
The other thing is the Lord in Matthew 12, and John 5:8 showed that the Sabbath is not observed in the same manner as in the OT. Apostle Paul then shows in Romans 13 that love upholds the 10 moral commands of God and the rest of Jesus teachings. Hebrews 4 shows how our Sabbath rest is now in Him through obedience to the faith.

Acts shows the Apostles gathered together for worship on multiple days, and shows Sunday as one of those days. (Acts 20:7)

kennethcadwell · Mar 15, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

I did not say anything about our own personal works, as I am always speaking of the works produce from us through the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

James also states as an example that if you refuse to help a person in need and send them on their way without what they needed then you faith is worthless.
Apostle James here is paralleling what the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 25, as not all who call Him Lord will get eternal life if they live an unloving/uncaring lifestyle. Both groups in Matthew 25:31-46 profess Jesus as Lord, but only the group that walked in love and helped others in need got eternal life. The other group that did not help out others was sent to eternal punishment, and Jesus tells them the reason is because by denying others they have denied Him.

Apostle Paul shows more then 10 times in scripture that are faith leads to righteousness unto salvation. He shows we have assurance and hope of receiving it right now, when the Lord comes to gather us to be with Him is when we actual receive the physical possession of it.

MarcR · Mar 15, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Kenneth,

Most of us who teach Salvation by grace alone do not argue the premise that true Salvation will produce obedience in the lives of believers.

The point of disagreement is about whether obedience is instrumental in obtaining Salvation.

kennethcadwell · Mar 15, 2015

MarcR said:

Well I would have to say by the bible it states that obedience is needed to obtain salvation.

Lord Jesus said clearly in Luke 12:43-48 that a disobedient servant will be cut in two and appointed a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers. He even says they will face worse torment then the unbelievers.
So yes I would say Jesus clearly says obedience is important for salvation, and there is over 25 scriptures in the NT that speaks of the importance of obedience. Hebrews for one states disobedience as a sin of unbelief, because if you deny to follow His teachings then you deny Him.

MarcR · Mar 15, 2015

Stephen63 said:

Stephen,

Perhaps this may clarify what James is saying here:

James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James, passing from the particular "mercy" or "love" violated by "respect of persons," notwithstanding profession of the "faith of our Lord Jesus" (Jas 2:1), combats the Jewish tendency (transplanted into Christianity) to substitute a lifeless acquaintance with the letter of the law for change of heart to holiness, as if justification could be thereby attained (Ro 2:3,13,23). It seems likely that James had seen Paul's letters, because he uses the same phrases and examples (cf. Jas 2:21,23,25 with Ro 4:3; Heb 11:17,31; and Jas 2:14,24 with Ro 3:28; Gal 2:16). At all events the Holy Spirit by James combats, not Paul, but those who abuse Paul's doctrine. The teaching of both alike is inspired, and to be received without wresting of words; but each has a different class to deal with: Paul, self-justiciaries; James, advocates of a mere notional faith. Paul urged as strongly as James the need of works as evidences faith, especially in the later letters, when many were abusing the doctrine of faith (Tit 2:14; 3:8). 'Believing and doing are blood relatives' (Rutherford).

Though a man say - not 'if a man have faith', but if "a man say [
legeee
, allege] he hath faith;" referring to a mere profession of faith, such as was usually made at baptism. Simon Magus so "believed and was baptized," and yet had "neither part nor lot in this matter," for his "heart," as his words and works evinced, was not right in the sight of God. The illustration (Jas 2:16) proves the emphasis on "say;" if "one of you say" the words to a naked brother [
eipee
, referring to the words;
legee
, to the sentiment] 'Be ye warmed, notwithstanding ye give not those things needful.' The inoperative profession of sympathy answers to the inoperative profession of faith.

Can faith save him? - rather, 'can such a faith (literally, the faith) save him?' the empty boast contrasted with true fruit-producing faith. So that which self-deceivers claim is called "wisdom," though not true wisdom (Jas 3:15). The "him" also is emphatic; the particular man who professes faith without having works to evidence its vitality.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

I used this excerpt from JFB, because what I wanted to say was already said better by those before me.

MarcR · Mar 15, 2015

gotime said:

Gotime,

Most of us who teach Salvation by grace alone do not argue the premise that true Salvation will produce obedience in the lives of believers.

The point of disagreement is about whether obedience is instrumental in obtaining Salvation.

SAVED BY WORKS

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