SAVED BY WORKS

[eternally-gratefull]

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Matt23:25-28

Like some people in here who think they are worthy. They may look clean on the outside (to everyone around them) but on the inside, they have sin they deny.

They are teachers of the word of God (the word law in hebrew means the word of the lord, or the OT) and act like they follow God because they do all these works, and do not commit sins (the pharisees in Jesus time were seen as the most righteous people on earth, the people who were looked up to because they followed Gods law so well, better than anyone else alive) but they failed to realise. the law they followed and taught condemned them.

Just like the people in here, they teach the word. they act like they follow the word. But they fail to realise, the same word they teach still condemns them.

God gave us the requirements to earn salvation, perfect adherence to the law.

Only one mad ever fulfilled that law. and he hung on a cross.

these people reject the cross. because they think they have earned the right to be called children of God. and have rejected the grace gift of God. they replace the righteousness of Christ (which is perfect) with their own righteousness (which falls far short of God) and somehow think they will get to heaven.

 

[dcontroversal]

Please post the Greek spelling for "echo," as I cannot figure out which word you are talking about.

Further, please post some verses in Greek which use the two words, "pisteuo and echo," and demonstrate how these verses support your point that salvation is by works.

If you can't post the actual Greek, please refrain from using it improperly. I suggest you actually study the Greek, and you will find a totally different message than the one you have been preaching.

That is: salvation is by grace, not by works. We are justified by faith, which is totally a work of God. Sanctification, in which we are transformed through our life by God, is also a work of God. True, we cooperate, but we could not cooperate if the Holy Spirit did not initiate and lead us through every step of the journey.

Good luck with that...I gave him the definition of Justified by the Greek and he argued it and called it a man made definition......the only reason he argued it is because like you have said it will contradict his version of the bible......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I know that scripture but it does not go against what I said, they do not practice what they teach because they defiled the law and added to it. They did things to be seen, hince self gratification, and did not show love to help others in need just held them done in their burdens and added more to them.

yet if we placed any of then next to you. their righteousness would put your righteousness to shame. In fact, they would put almost, if not all of us to shame.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Matt23:25-28

Yes and once again this shows they try and make themselves out to be perfect when they are actually walking in a sinful lifestyle. Lord Jesus is saying until they change their heart and start showing love to others, and turn away from their self-righteous ways only then will they truly be clean.
Jesus is showing clearly that they do not obey the laws that they teach because they are sinful in their actions. Just like the rich man who came to Jesus who told Him he has obeyed all of His commands since youth. Jesus told Him now go sell all that he had and give it to the poor. The rich man went away sad because he was shown his true faith was in his possessions and not in the Lord.

Nothing done without the love for the Lord is filthy rags, but everything that is done in love for the Lord is a sign of a true faith. The ones that Jesus told I never knew you in Matthew 7:21, stated that they did many wonderful works in His name which they did. But Jesus did not give salvation because they also lived a sinful lifestyle as He shows by calling them lawlessness. You can not serve the Lord and serve the flesh both...............

 

[michael56]

Yes I know that scripture but it does not go against what I said, they do not practice what they teach because they defiled the law and added to it. They did things to be seen, hince self gratification, and did not show love to help others in need just held them done in their burdens and added more to them.

Do you agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy?

What was their hypocrisy? It was demanding of others what they could not attain to in their own lives.

They quoted the literal letter of scripture ceaselessly and insisted it was faultlessly followed, yet they did not understand the heart of the message that letter contained

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes and once again this shows they try and make themselves out to be perfect when they are actually walking in a sinful lifestyle. Lord Jesus is saying until they change their heart and start showing love to others, and turn away from their self-righteous ways only then will they truly be clean.
Jesus is showing clearly that they do not obey the laws that they teach because they are sinful in their actions. Just like the rich man who came to Jesus who told Him he has obeyed all of His commands since youth. Jesus told Him now go sell all that he had and give it to the poor. The rich man went away sad because he was shown his true faith was in his possessions and not in the Lord.

Nothing done without the love for the Lord is filthy rags, but everything that is done in love for the Lord is a sign of a true faith. The ones that Jesus told I never knew you in Matthew 7:21, stated that they did many wonderful works in His name which they did. But Jesus did not give salvation because they also lived a sinful lifestyle as He shows by calling them lawlessness. You can not serve the Lord and serve the flesh both...............

in other words they are like you.

They can not show love until they first recieve the love of Christ, thats why they could not love others. Like you, they thought they were ok, because they followed a set of rules and regulations, and thought they were good enough.

One that does not think they need to be saved, because they are good enough, is not going to love others, all they can do is puff themselves up as holy and righteous, and get mad at anyone who tells they the truth, and how totally unworthy they are.

we get alot of that in here.

 

[michael56]

Yes and once again this shows they try and make themselves out to be perfect when they are actually walking in a sinful lifestyle. Lord Jesus is saying until they change their heart and start showing love to others, and turn away from their self-righteous ways only then will they truly be clean.
Jesus is showing clearly that they do not obey the laws that they teach because they are sinful in their actions. Just like the rich man who came to Jesus who told Him he has obeyed all of His commands since youth. Jesus told Him now go sell all that he had and give it to the poor. The rich man went away sad because he was shown his true faith was in his possessions and not in the Lord.

Nothing done without the love for the Lord is filthy rags, but everything that is done in love for the Lord is a sign of a true faith. The ones that Jesus told I never knew you in Matthew 7:21, stated that they did many wonderful works in His name which they did. But Jesus did not give salvation because they also lived a sinful lifestyle as He shows by calling them lawlessness. You can not serve the Lord and serve the flesh both...............

I'm sure they preached and stressed the love of God also Kenneth, but by their attitude they neglected it

 

[Stephen63]

Why don't we get down to the brass tacks of this thread? We all know what it's really about....... saying faith vs. faith with evidence of works.

James ch 2 is at the core of proving OSAS is wrong, & it is literally interpreted. Just check all the replies in the thread concerning James 2...... they're either ignored altogether, or the argument is it's been interpreted improperly & the context doesn't say that. But.... it IS literally interpreted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy?

What was their hypocrisy? It was demanding of others what they could not attain to in their own lives.

They quoted the literal letter of scripture ceaselessly and insisted it was faultlessly followed, yet they did not understand the heart of the message that letter contained

yes, they thought they were worthy of gods love, and sinners were unworthy, and demanded sinners live as they did, or they would have no hope.

Sounds like alot of people in here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why don't we get down to the brass tacks of this thread? We all know what it's really about....... saying faith vs. faith with evidence of works.

James ch 2 is at the core of proving OSAS is wrong, & it is literally interpreted. Just check all the replies in the thread concerning James 2...... they're either ignored altogether, or the argument is it's been interpreted improperly & the context doesn't say that. But.... it IS literally interpreted.

No.

James 2 supports OSAS.

If one CLAIMS TO have faith, yet have no works (zero zip nada, they continued to live in sin, had no change in life, were hearers of the word not doers) Can THAT FAITH save them?

No!

WHy?

It was dead. it was no faith at all.

Nice try, but james destroys legalism, because one work completed by a person who has faith would mean he had real faith, and james does not pertain to them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

yet if we placed any of then next to you. their righteousness would put your righteousness to shame. In fact, they would put almost, if not all of us to shame.

You and your condescending remarks toward me all the time.
You do not know me and how I walk in the faith, nor do you know my heart to make such judgmental remarks. Nor are you suppose to judge others as Paul says do not judge anybody before the Lord returns. The bible says those believe they are allowed to judge others are shameful.

1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? No, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren

1 Corinthians 6:7
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

 

[dcontroversal]

Why don't we get down to the brass tacks of this thread? We all know what it's really about....... saying faith vs. faith with evidence of works.

James ch 2 is at the core of proving OSAS is wrong, & it is literally interpreted. Just check all the replies in the thread concerning James 2...... they're either ignored altogether, or the argument is it's been interpreted improperly & the context doesn't say that. But.... it IS literally interpreted.

Try again.....

Faith for salvation as opposed to faith + works for salvation.....

Paul-->Romans--> a man is justified (rendered LEGALLY INNOCENT) before GOD by FAITH without works
James--> A MAN'S faith is justified before MEN by his works.....

This is what you all cannot seem to fathom.........

NOT one person I know who believes in the security of the believer has said that there will not be fruit/works evident...the difference is that WORKS do not add to, facilitate, get, procure salvation....

That is what the (brass tacks) of this thread is about!

 

[michael56]

No.

James 2 supports OSAS.

If one CLAIMS TO have faith, yet have no works (zero zip nada, they continued to live in sin, had no change in life, were hearers of the word not doers) Can THAT FAITH save them?

No!

WHy?

It was dead. it was no faith at all.

Nice try, but james destroys legalism, because one work completed by a person who has faith would mean he had real faith, and james does not pertain to them.

[SUP] [/SUP]For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10

I wish they would stress the above also, rather than be selective.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No.

James 2 supports OSAS.

If one CLAIMS TO have faith, yet have no works (zero zip nada, they continued to live in sin, had no change in life, were hearers of the word not doers) Can THAT FAITH save them?

No!

WHy?

It was dead. it was no faith at all.

Nice try, but james destroys legalism, because one work completed by a person who has faith would mean he had real faith, and james does not pertain to them.

James supports OSAS according to you, I think his last two verses prove that to be wrong;

[h=1]James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.[/h]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You and your condescending remarks toward me all the time.
You do not know me and how I walk in the faith, nor do you know my heart to make such judgmental remarks. Nor are you suppose to judge others as Paul says do not judge anybody before the Lord returns. The bible says those believe they are allowed to judge others are shameful.

1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? No, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren

1 Corinthians 6:7
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

I know you claimed to be worthy. Which proves you are just like the pharisees. And your gospel needs to be taken out. and put where it belongs in the trash.

And as far as what you do. It does not take a brain surgeon to see the type of lives the pharisees lived, Even jesus acknowledged it. By saying our righteousness must exceed theirs. Why would he make a claim? because no ones back then did. and no ones today will..

they spent 24/7 of their lives living holy lives. they had to, every person alive was watching them to see if they would screw up. because their adherence to the law was what made them a pharisee, if they broke the law they would have been cast out.

 

[dcontroversal]

You and your condescending remarks toward me all the time.
You do not know me and how I walk in the faith, nor do you know my heart to make such judgmental remarks. Nor are you suppose to judge others as Paul says do not judge anybody before the Lord returns. The bible says those believe they are allowed to judge others are shameful.

1 Corinthians 6:5
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? No, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren

1 Corinthians 6:7
Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

That is where you make your mistake....no one here is judging you individually, but rather we judge your heretical message KENNETH.....what you say does not jive....just like rejecting the Greek definition of justified (rendered legally INNOCENT) in a PAST TENSE (ED) sense......

Who have been JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH<---PAUL, ROMANS and your problem is you will reject any truth that contradicts your view while throwing verses left and right out of context like JAMES to try and justify your position.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James supports OSAS according to you, I think his last two verses prove that to be wrong;

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

lol.. Save a soul from death.

How can a person who has eternal life die again?

You claim your born again how can you die again? you would not have eternal life,

oh thats right, you follow the roman catholic doctrine of penance. where salvation is not complete until all your sins are paid for by your acts of penance.

PS. some of the "you" he spoke to he said were hears of the word, and not does. He called them people who had a dead faith (not yet saved)

when are yuo people going to realise. A letter was directed to EVERYONE going to that church, which means it was directed to the SAVED< as well as the UNSAVED.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do you agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy?

What was their hypocrisy? It was demanding of others what they could not attain to in their own lives.

They quoted the literal letter of scripture ceaselessly and insisted it was faultlessly followed, yet they did not understand the heart of the message that letter contained

Yes they were because they twisted and defiled the word of God, and used the laws to their own advantage.
They did not give and teach the laws out of love for God, that is why as their was no love behind what they were doing.

 

[michael56]

Yes they were because they twisted and defiled the word of God, and used the laws to their own advantage.
They did not give and teach the laws out of love for God, that is why as their was no love behind what they were doing.

You seem reticent to agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy, because they demanded of others what they failed to attain to in their own lives. It is a simple and widely accepted truth, why will you not give full endorsement to it?

 

[kennethcadwell]

lol.. Save a soul from death.

How can a person who has eternal life die again?

You claim your born again how can you die again? you would not have eternal life,

oh thats right, you follow the roman catholic doctrine of penance. where salvation is not complete until all your sins are paid for by your acts of penance.

PS. some of the "you" he spoke to he said were hears of the word, and not does. He called them people who had a dead faith (not yet saved)

when are yuo people going to realise. A letter was directed to EVERYONE going to that church, which means it was directed to the SAVED< as well as the UNSAVED.

You do not have eternal life as a physical possession yet, it is a mental assurance of receiving it.

James clearly says in that last passage if a believer wanders from the truth (falls away) then if you go and bring them back to the Lord you will save them from the lake of fire (spiritual death).
Keep denying and twisting all you want to make it fit that false OSAS philosophy, but the scripture is clear if a believer falls away from the faith and does not come back they do not get eternal life.