SAVED BY WORKS

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Aug 15, 2009
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No.

James 2 supports OSAS.

If one CLAIMS TO have faith, yet have no works (zero zip nada, they continued to live in sin, had no change in life, were hearers of the word not doers) Can THAT FAITH save them?

No!

WHy?

It was dead. it was no faith at all.

Nice try, but james destroys legalism, because one work completed by a person who has faith would mean he had real faith, and james does not pertain to them.
Adam Clarke's Commentary.
"From James 1:22 the apostle has been enforcing Christian practice. He now applies to those who neglect this under the pretense of faith. St. Paul had taught that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law. This some already began to wrest to their own destruction. Wherefore St. James, purposely repeating, James 1:21, 23, 25, the same phrases, testimonies, and examples which St. Paul had used, Romans 4:3; Hebrews 11:17, 31, refutes not the doctrine of St. Paul, but the error of those who abused it. There is therefore no contradiction between the apostles; they both delivered the truth of God, but in a different manner, as having to do with different kinds of men. This verse is a summary of what follows: What profiteth it, is enlarged on, James 2:15-17; though a man say, James 2:18, 19; can that faith save him? James 2:20. It is not though he have faith, but though he say, I have faith. Here therefore true living faith is meant. But in other parts of the argument the apostle speaks of a dead imaginary faith. He does not therefore teach that true faith can, but that it cannot, subsist without works. Nor does he oppose faith to works, but that empty name of faith to real faith working by love. Can that faith which is without works save him? No more than it can profit his neighbor.

 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
You seem reticent to agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy, because they demanded of others what they failed to attain to in their own lives. It is a simple and widely accepted truth, why will you not give full endorsement to it?

I do not agree with your understanding of that passage, as even the scriptures you gave showed clearly all that they did was for self gratitude, financial gain, and added on to it. Something strictly forbidden in the bible, for it says if you add or take away from His word you will blotted out of the book of life.
 
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VioletReigns

Guest
in other words they are like you.

They can not show love until they first recieve the love of Christ, thats why they could not love others. Like you, they thought they were ok, because they followed a set of rules and regulations, and thought they were good enough.

One that does not think they need to be saved, because they are good enough, is not going to love others, all they can do is puff themselves up as holy and righteous, and get mad at anyone who tells they the truth, and how totally unworthy they are.

we get alot of that in here.
eternally-gratefull, you must hold that mirror up to yourself as well. You are judging rather harshly, don't ya think? This sounds like condemnation to me; it certainly isn't edification, admonition or exhortation. Your words are downright judgmental.

In 2 Timothy 2:14 reads: Remind them of these things, and command them in the presence of God not to argue about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

There's no need to rip a Christian apart because you don't happen to agree with him or her. That's not love. And believe you me, I'm not picking on you. As I'm typing this the Holy Spirit is reminding me that I must put that mirror up to me as well. I know how inconsiderate and ignorant my flesh is.
:p

loveispatient.jpg
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You do not have eternal life as a physical possession yet, it is a mental assurance of receiving it.
Yes I do.

John said I teach you things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE (IN POSSESSION) ETERNAL LIFE. and you will continue to believe in his name.


He also said eternal life s KNOWING the son of God. Nothing about doing good to earn it.


Eternal life is a gift of God. It can not be earned, if it can not be earned, then one does not have to wait for it. they have it in possession.

Again, leave your catholicism, you have been brainwashed by it.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You do not have eternal life as a physical possession yet, it is a mental assurance of receiving it.

James clearly says in that last passage if a believer wanders from the truth (falls away) then if you go and bring them back to the Lord you will save them from the lake of fire (spiritual death).
Keep denying and twisting all you want to make it fit that false OSAS philosophy, but the scripture is clear if a believer falls away from the faith and does not come back they do not get eternal life.
More rejection of truth......

He that believeth on the Son HATH eternal life....not is going to get, will get, might get, but HATH....

Also....Is Abraham DEAD...HOW long has he been GONE......

Just like the PHARSEES and their corrupt views...JESUS said they were in error as well...God is not the God of the dead, but of the LIVING......

Abraham BELIEVED GOD and he was JUSTIFIED by FAITH and right now has ETERNAL LIFE and is LIVING........!

Wake UP......
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Adam Clarke's Commentary.
"From James 1:22 the apostle has been enforcing Christian practice. He now applies to those who neglect this under the pretense of faith. St. Paul had taught that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law. This some already began to wrest to their own destruction. Wherefore St. James, purposely repeating, James 1:21, 23, 25, the same phrases, testimonies, and examples which St. Paul had used, Romans 4:3; Hebrews 11:17, 31, refutes not the doctrine of St. Paul, but the error of those who abused it. There is therefore no contradiction between the apostles; they both delivered the truth of God, but in a different manner, as having to do with different kinds of men. This verse is a summary of what follows: What profiteth it, is enlarged on, James 2:15-17; though a man say, James 2:18, 19; can that faith save him? James 2:20. It is not though he have faith, but though he say, I have faith. Here therefore true living faith is meant. But in other parts of the argument the apostle speaks of a dead imaginary faith. He does not therefore teach that true faith can, but that it cannot, subsist without works. Nor does he oppose faith to works, but that empty name of faith to real faith working by love. Can that faith which is without works save him? No more than it can profit his neighbor.

so we listen to men and not God? I can post many commentaries which show the opposite.

James said who has faith and ZERO works is not saved.

Paul said one who has faith is saved, And he, James, Hebrews and every other apostle said those who are saved WILL DO WORKS.

If i have no faith, I will not be saved, I can test my faith. by looking at my works. Which is what James was demanding his readers do.


The context of james is testing our own faith. is it real or is it not.

Those who have true faith (are saved) will have works.

those who do not have true faith (not saved) will not have works, they will be hearers of the word. and not doers.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes I do.

John said I teach you things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE (IN POSSESSION) ETERNAL LIFE. and you will continue to believe in his name.


He also said eternal life s KNOWING the son of God. Nothing about doing good to earn it.


Eternal life is a gift of God. It can not be earned, if it can not be earned, then one does not have to wait for it. they have it in possession.

Again, leave your catholicism, you have been brainwashed by it.
He contradicts his own view with his translation of ECHO....He states...to hold in the hand as in a MENTAL assurance of it.....talk about double talk....

I don't know about him, but when I have something in my hand it is not a MENTAL ASSURANCE because it is IN MY HAND and is TANGIBLE.....!
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
That is where you make your mistake....no one here is judging you individually, but rather we judge your heretical message KENNETH.....what you say does not jive....just like rejecting the Greek definition of justified (rendered legally INNOCENT) in a PAST TENSE (ED) sense......

Who have been JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH<---PAUL, ROMANS and your problem is you will reject any truth that contradicts your view while throwing verses left and right out of context like JAMES to try and justify your position.


Judging is judging my brother no matter how you try to twist it to make it be acceptable, as it is still in the wrong.
As Jesus says do not judge, and if you do judge you will be judged in the same manner. So if you are willing to tell others they are going to the lake of fire, guess where you will be to. Paul says do not judge anybody tell the Lord returns.

My teaching is only heretical to your understanding, but my teaching lines up with the bible.
Read post 634 and see how you can twist that one, because James there in those verses completely refutes OSAS doctrine. He says if a brother (believer) falls away from the truth, if you bring him back to the Lord you will save them from death.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
eternally-gratefull, you must hold that mirror up to yourself as well. You are judging rather harshly, don't ya think? This sounds like condemnation to me; it certainly isn't edification, admonition or exhortation. Your words are downright judgmental.

In 2 Timothy 2:14 reads: Remind them of these things, and command them in the presence of God not to argue about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

There's no need to rip a Christian apart because you don't happen to agree with him or her. That's not love. And believe you me, I'm not picking on you. As I'm typing this the Holy Spirit is reminding me that I must put that mirror up to me as well. I know how inconsiderate and ignorant my flesh is.
:p

View attachment 100997

I have looked at myself I have never puffed myself up to be worthy before God. If God came to me today, Like Daniel and the apostle john, I would be on my face so scared I would be like dead. (If I was not already out of fear) because I know how unworthy I am.

I am the tax collector. on my knees, these people cliam they praise God they are not sinners, They are pharisees puffing themselves up and leading others to join them in hell

1. I am not worthy of Gods gift
2. I can not earn Gods gift, not in my sin
3. I am no more righteous than any other person, my righteousness are as filthy rags.

I know my plight against God. He does not know his, he claims he is worthy, thus he is a modern day pharisee. Jesus judged them and called them whitewashed tombs. Paul condemned them, and call then false teachers.
I use scripture, I can not judge them, their words judge themselves.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
He contradicts his own view with his translation of ECHO....He states...to hold in the hand as in a MENTAL assurance of it.....talk about double talk....

I don't know about him, but when I have something in my hand it is not a MENTAL ASSURANCE because it is IN MY HAND and is TANGIBLE.....!

That is not double talk as the having in hand is a metaphor in the definition, and this comes directly from the definition itself. So if you have issue with that then your debate is with the Strong's Greek Concordiance ..........
But you probably will because anything that doesn't fit your understanding you disagree with..........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Judging is judging my brother no matter how you try to twist it to make it be acceptable, as it is still in the wrong.
As Jesus says do not judge, and if you do judge you will be judged in the same manner. So if you are willing to tell others they are going to the lake of fire, guess where you will be to. Paul says do not judge anybody tell the Lord returns.

My teaching is only heretical to your understanding, but my teaching lines up with the bible.
Read post 634 and see how you can twist that one, because James there in those verses completely refutes OSAS doctrine. He says if a brother (believer) falls away from the truth, if you bring him back to the Lord you will save them from death.

Yeah no doubt....but a few things you fail to see and understand are.....

1. Some in the N.T. were cut lose for the DESTURCTION of the FLESH so as to learn not to blaspheme
2. Some sins lead to PHYSICAL death
3. It is the SPIRIT that is born AGAIN
4. SOME of the Corinthian BROTHERS had fallen asleep (DIED) physically because of a corruption of the Lord's Supper
5. God chastises his people and sometimes that leads to PHYSICAL death
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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It is grave error to suggest that cause the Pharisees tried to keep the law in their own strength and compelled others to do so that all who keep the law and teach to do so are in the same error.

They tried to work their way, we let Jesus work in us. Big difference.

Jesus said:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He said do it, but for real not just lip service like they did.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

again he said that those who teach them shall be great but again he says:

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So again the same point in chapter 23, do it but don't be like them who do not do what they teach:

Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

SO the issue is not teaching the law the issue is being a hypocrite as it is written:

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

So it is that the issue is hypocrisy, people teaching to keep it and not keeping it themselves.

Thus Jesus said do what they say he said teach the law and be great in heaven, but don't copy their hypocritical ways because your righteousness must exceed theirs, it must be real not pretend.

So it is that we who say the law can be kept do keep it, well I guess I can't speak for everyone. But I can speak for myself, I practice what I preach. Thus you cannot put all who teach the law in the same camp as the pharisees.

Blessings.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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That is not double talk as the having in hand is a metaphor in the definition, and this comes directly from the definition itself. So if you have issue with that then your debate is with the Strong's Greek Concordiance ..........
But you probably will because anything that doesn't fit your understanding you disagree with..........
Well...lets see, Strong's, Gerhard, Kittel and Bromiley Theological Dictionary of N.T. words, and half a dozen other books I use all say the same thing......

Do you have a wife? Is she a just a mental assurance of marriage or real and tangible?

He that believeth on the SON HATH ETERNAL life......

Your argument is with the word not mine........I understand what it means to HAVE something

HATH=HAVE and again if you understood the perfect tense, and the aorist tense found in the GREEK language you would open your eyes and understand that it is a present REALITY!
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Yeah no doubt....but a few things you fail to see and understand are.....

1. Some in the N.T. were cut lose for the DESTURCTION of the FLESH so as to learn not to blaspheme
2. Some sins lead to PHYSICAL death
3. It is the SPIRIT that is born AGAIN
4. SOME of the Corinthian BROTHERS had fallen asleep (DIED) physically because of a corruption of the Lord's Supper
5. God chastises his people and sometimes that leads to PHYSICAL death

I do understand and I will address each one of your points;

1) They were cut lose to learn not to blaspheme, but if they do not change and repent they will not have eternal life.

2) Some sins do lead to physical death, but the verses in 1 John that is peaking of sins leading to death and sins not leading to death is not speaking of physical death. The context in the scriptures that are previous to this show that the sins that do not lead to death is repented/confessed sins that a brother/sister may still be having a issue in not walking in them any more. Hince if you see a brother sinning a sin that has been confessed, that is working on stopping.

3) We are to be born again in Spirit, but the meaning shows our outer actions, words, deeds are to match our faith. If not it is a dead faith that does not lead to eternal life.

4) If a person dies in unrepented/unconfessed sins they do not get eternal life for walking a deliberate sinful lifestyle.
A person can not die in the flesh and then be forgiven of sins afterwards, the forgiveness has to be received by the Lord before we die.

5) God chastises His sons to make them repent, not to destroy them. The only ones that gets destroyed by God are those who do not repent. God chastises for correcting period, and if the person who receives the chastising does not repent of their ways will not receive eternal life.

It is completely unbiblical to say a person can physically die in unrepented sins and get eternal life, there is absolutely no biblical evidence for that. James in his final two scriptures clearly says if a believer falls away, only if they are brought back to the truth will they escape spiritual death in the lake of fire.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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It is grave error to suggest that cause the Pharisees tried to keep the law in their own strength and compelled others to do so that all who keep the law and teach to do so are in the same error.

They tried to work their way, we let Jesus work in us. Big difference.

Jesus said:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He said do it, but for real not just lip service like they did.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

again he said that those who teach them shall be great but again he says:

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So again the same point in chapter 23, do it but don't be like them who do not do what they teach:

Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

SO the issue is not teaching the law the issue is being a hypocrite as it is written:

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

So it is that the issue is hypocrisy, people teaching to keep it and not keeping it themselves.

Thus Jesus said do what they say he said teach the law and be great in heaven, but don't copy their hypocritical ways because your righteousness must exceed theirs, it must be real not pretend.

So it is that we who say the law can be kept do keep it, well I guess I can't speak for everyone. But I can speak for myself, I practice what I preach. Thus you cannot put all who teach the law in the same camp as the pharisees.

Blessings.
The grave error is in saying that law keeping has anything to do with getting saved or maintaining salvation.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I do not agree with your understanding of that passage, as even the scriptures you gave showed clearly all that they did was for self gratitude, financial gain, and added on to it. Something strictly forbidden in the bible, for it says if you add or take away from His word you will blotted out of the book of life.
Of course you wouldn't........

Originally Posted by michael56
You seem reticent to agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy, because they demanded of others what they failed to attain to in their own lives. It is a simple and widely accepted truth, why will you not give full endorsement to it?
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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The grave error is in saying that law keeping has anything to do with getting saved or maintaining salvation.
not true, the grave error is thinking that salvation has nothing to do with actually being saved from sin.

If sin is breaking the law which it is and we are saved from sin then what are we saved from? Answer: breaking the law.

And if we continue to break the law/sin then are we free from sin/breaking the law? no we are still slaves to sin and thus not free.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


To say you are free from obedience to Gods law is exactly the same as saying you are free to sin. remember sin is breaking the law. Sin is disobedience to Gods law it is lawlessness.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Well...lets see, Strong's, Gerhard, Kittel and Bromiley Theological Dictionary of N.T. words, and half a dozen other books I use all say the same thing......

Do you have a wife? Is she a just a mental assurance of marriage or real and tangible?

He that believeth on the SON HATH ETERNAL life......

Your argument is with the word not mine........I understand what it means to HAVE something

HATH=HAVE and again if you understood the perfect tense, and the aorist tense found in the GREEK language you would open your eyes and understand that it is a present REALITY!

Well that is funny because the definition I give comes directly from the Strong's Greek Concordiance.

Now you are trying to compare a physical worldly thing to a Spiritual aspect.
If you have eternal life now then walk through walls, go from here to Israel without using a plane or boat....
We have not be changed at a twinkling of an eye yet, so we do not have actual physical possession of it yet. We have mental assurance of receiving it right now. If it was an actual physical possession, then over 30 scriptures in the NT would be contradicting as they all say it is the end result of keeping the faith.

You keep wanting to post the same few scriptures over and over again, yet those few scriptures do not cancel out the rest of the Lords teaching and the rest of the bible. That and the Greek words are exactly the ones we are refuting that means a continuation of belief leading to eternal life.

Jesus clearly says those who believe in Him are those who come, hear, and do what He said.......
Not those who come and hear only, as the bible states those who do that are deceived......
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Of course you wouldn't........

Originally Posted by michael56
You seem reticent to agree the yeast of the Pharisees was hypocrisy, because they demanded of others what they failed to attain to in their own lives. It is a simple and widely accepted truth, why will you not give full endorsement to it?

That is right as he believes the scripture is saying the Pharisees is forcing others to keep the Mosaic law that they don't keep. Which is only part of the equation that I pointed out, as if was not that the Lord was not telling the people they don't have to keep the laws. On the contrary Jesus told the people to do the laws that they preached.

Then Jesus told not to do what they do, because the Pharisees did not keep the laws but twisted and corrupted them instead. And used them for self recognition and financial gain, not out for or out of love.

That is why I said I do not accept his version of understanding because he was only going by half of the context that was there. I was simply pointing out the whole context.
 
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Well that is funny because the definition I give comes directly from the Strong's Greek Concordiance.

Now you are trying to compare a physical worldly thing to a Spiritual aspect.
If you have eternal life now then walk through walls, go from here to Israel without using a plane or boat....
We have not be changed at a twinkling of an eye yet, so we do not have actual physical possession of it yet. We have mental assurance of receiving it right now. If it was an actual physical possession, then over 30 scriptures in the NT would be contradicting as they all say it is the end result of keeping the faith.

You keep wanting to post the same few scriptures over and over again, yet those few scriptures do not cancel out the rest of the Lords teaching and the rest of the bible. That and the Greek words are exactly the ones we are refuting that means a continuation of belief leading to eternal life.

Jesus clearly says those who believe in Him are those who come, hear, and do what He said.......
Not those who come and hear only, as the bible states those who do that are deceived......
Now you are just being ridiculous........My eternal SPIRIT is still bound in a physical BODY......the word means to have period.....You reject this because you believe you can lose your salvation which is false......

He that believes HATH everlasting/eternal LIFE....reject the word if you so choose...I guess you are right in this sense......by your own theology (faith+works) for salvation that you can lose which is a gospel of a different KIND, double cursed and no power to save then you would be correct to say that you do not possess eternal life...as for me I will stick with what the words actually mean and the verb tenses which PROVES that one who actually trusts into Christ is PRESENTLY HAVING EVERLASTING SPIRITUAL LIFE.......