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never the less I will clarify for you my position concerning these verses.
First Jesus has been speaking to the pharisees who are challenging Jesus and who He is. Jesus then says He is form the Father and that if they do not believe this then they will die in their sins. They again ask who is He and again Jesus directs to His mission as messiah. Then Jesus says this:
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus says that the truth will make them free, the insinuation is that they are not free. so they reply:
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
They reply that we are Abraham's seed meaning they are the family the offspring of Abraham, of course they speak of a physical descendant as their claim to the family/house of Abraham.
So Jesus then says:
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Guys if you sin then you are a slave and not free you are a slave to sin. then He says:
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
And the slave to sin will not abide in the house/family forever. In other words He is responding to their saying that they are of Abraham's house. But Jesus said no you are not free from sin so you will not stay in Abraham's house forever. They sought a physical reality as their claim to freedom but Jesus came to fee them spiritually form sin.
notice the next verse:
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
If the son/Jesus shall make you free then you shall be free indeed, free from what? Slavery to sin and thus you shall be part of the Spiritual house of Abraham. Jesus goes on to clarify:
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jesus says I know you are Abraham's seed/physical seed not spiritual seed which is where true freedom is.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So here Jesus makes it clear that if they were Abraham's true children then they would do the works of Abraham.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
But they did not and thus were Slavs to sin. they did not obey. But their greatest sin was to no believe on Jesus as the messiah and thus they could not be freed from slavery to sin. and Jesus makes it clear that the one who sins is a slave to sin.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
They are of the devil and they do the works of their Father. So he says they do the works of the Devil, now here he names murder which they were planing to do but what else are the works of the devil that they do?
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So sin is the work of the Devil and those who sin are of the Devil this lines up exactly with what Jesus is teaching the Pharisees.
First Jesus has been speaking to the pharisees who are challenging Jesus and who He is. Jesus then says He is form the Father and that if they do not believe this then they will die in their sins. They again ask who is He and again Jesus directs to His mission as messiah. Then Jesus says this:
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus says that the truth will make them free, the insinuation is that they are not free. so they reply:
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
They reply that we are Abraham's seed meaning they are the family the offspring of Abraham, of course they speak of a physical descendant as their claim to the family/house of Abraham.
So Jesus then says:
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Guys if you sin then you are a slave and not free you are a slave to sin. then He says:
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
And the slave to sin will not abide in the house/family forever. In other words He is responding to their saying that they are of Abraham's house. But Jesus said no you are not free from sin so you will not stay in Abraham's house forever. They sought a physical reality as their claim to freedom but Jesus came to fee them spiritually form sin.
notice the next verse:
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
If the son/Jesus shall make you free then you shall be free indeed, free from what? Slavery to sin and thus you shall be part of the Spiritual house of Abraham. Jesus goes on to clarify:
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Jesus says I know you are Abraham's seed/physical seed not spiritual seed which is where true freedom is.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
So here Jesus makes it clear that if they were Abraham's true children then they would do the works of Abraham.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
But they did not and thus were Slavs to sin. they did not obey. But their greatest sin was to no believe on Jesus as the messiah and thus they could not be freed from slavery to sin. and Jesus makes it clear that the one who sins is a slave to sin.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
They are of the devil and they do the works of their Father. So he says they do the works of the Devil, now here he names murder which they were planing to do but what else are the works of the devil that they do?
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So sin is the work of the Devil and those who sin are of the Devil this lines up exactly with what Jesus is teaching the Pharisees.
K
Excellent break down as to why Jesus spoke to the Pharisees the way he did.
For they did not do things out of the Love for God, and did not keep the laws perfectly as some would try to say. They corrupted and twisted the word by adding to, and not helping others in their burdens. They had no love in what they were doing. Paul did not even keep the law perfectly when he was known as the Pharisee Saul, for he was a persecutor and murderer of Christians before his conversion.
Ok then you understand that John 8:34-36 is a parallel to Galatians 2:20.
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin... but the servant adibeth not in the house forever (I am crucified with Christ). But the son abideth forever (nevertheleess I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me)... therefor if the Son has made me free by my death with him on the cross, then I am free indeed.
Ceasing from sin doesn't free us from sin, Christ made us free from sin by making us dead to the law. Christians are not perfect, we don't stop sinning when we're saved... we're just forgiven. You still sin my friend and so do I and so does Kenneth.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
All things are lawful for me, because there is no law for me. All things are lawful but certainly all things are not beneficial for me.
1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Sorry gotime but you're view of John 8:34-36 is in direct contradiction to everything written in the New Testament.
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin... but the servant adibeth not in the house forever (I am crucified with Christ). But the son abideth forever (nevertheleess I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me)... therefor if the Son has made me free by my death with him on the cross, then I am free indeed.
Ceasing from sin doesn't free us from sin, Christ made us free from sin by making us dead to the law. Christians are not perfect, we don't stop sinning when we're saved... we're just forgiven. You still sin my friend and so do I and so does Kenneth.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
All things are lawful for me, because there is no law for me. All things are lawful but certainly all things are not beneficial for me.
1Co_6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Sorry gotime but you're view of John 8:34-36 is in direct contradiction to everything written in the New Testament.
I think I will stick with what Jesus said in context thanx.
So have you really Crucified with Christ? what does that mean?
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So do you sever sin still? cause if you do then your Old man is not crucified with Christ.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Do you sin unto death or do you now obey as being alive in Christ means:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
the old man was a slave to sin but the new is a slave to righteousness:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I don't want what you have written it has no real freedom just an illusion of freedom.
Christ frees us form sin, ceasing form sin is the result of pure faith in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. If you think forgiveness is all that was accomplished at the cross then you have missed the true blessing of being free indeed by the Son.
Free from sin and its effects. alive in Christ by His Grace.
Your view is the one in contradiction not only with the immediate context but with the entire word of God.
See how that helped not one bit for me to say that. instead lets keep it bible.
blessings.
So have you really Crucified with Christ? what does that mean?
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So do you sever sin still? cause if you do then your Old man is not crucified with Christ.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Do you sin unto death or do you now obey as being alive in Christ means:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
the old man was a slave to sin but the new is a slave to righteousness:
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I don't want what you have written it has no real freedom just an illusion of freedom.
Christ frees us form sin, ceasing form sin is the result of pure faith in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. If you think forgiveness is all that was accomplished at the cross then you have missed the true blessing of being free indeed by the Son.
Free from sin and its effects. alive in Christ by His Grace.
Your view is the one in contradiction not only with the immediate context but with the entire word of God.
See how that helped not one bit for me to say that. instead lets keep it bible.
blessings.
Yes I still sin, and so do you.
Understand the verses below, then you'll understand what I posted.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Understand the verses below, then you'll understand what I posted.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Could you explain this part for me? As far as I know, there are only two types of Abraham's children (house of Abraham as you said), the physical seed and the spiritual seed. Was Jesus was telling the Pharisees which were the physical seed of Abraham that they could not continue to be Abraham's physical seed forever?
Is that what Jesus meant by the servant abideth not in the house for ever?
Is that what Jesus meant by the servant abideth not in the house for ever?
I am afraid you are backing yourself into a corner here.
you said you sin and so do you. Well aside form the fact that you don't know me so you have no right to make that claim. you do admit you sin and then quote Romans 7 to support you which means you actually think its normal or ok to be like this in Christ.
However it is you that does not understand this text so I will help you by pointing out some things you may have missed.
lets start at the beginning:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So you accept the law is spiritual, and then confess that you are carnal still and are still sold under sin making you a slave to sin.
So you claim that you are not spiritual but carnal. is this the case?
IF not then why are you using these verses to substantiate your position?
what about this verse:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is in direct relation to the verses you just quoted so you also admit that you are not delivered and are headed to death.
You admit that you want to do good but can't cause you are a slave to sin. but you can be free in Christ.
So you claim to be carnal and not spiritual, you claim to be a slave to sin and you claim to be undelivered from death.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
you claim to be carnal.
and you claim the experience of the carnal mind:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
you are not subject to the law of God and thus though you will to do good you can not do it.
but My God not only give us the will but the ability to do.
can the Romans 7 man do what He wills?
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
But God says:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
So God works to will and to do, so you confess that God is not working in you to do his good pleasure but only will.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
you confess that you delight in the law of God in the inward man but you are a slave to the law of sin. thus you are carnal and not spiritual.
but those who are spiritual it says:
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
We are strengthened in the inner man by the Spirit. no longer captive to the law of sin.
and again:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Those of us who are in Christ no longer walk according to the flesh which you admit walking according to. we by the Spirit in Christ are fee form the law of sin and death which you confess you are captive to the law of sin.
notice also:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
classic slave to sin as it is written:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
your flesh lusts against the spirit and you cannot do the things you want to do. but we who walk in the spirit:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
are free from such things.
think carefully friend.
you said you sin and so do you. Well aside form the fact that you don't know me so you have no right to make that claim. you do admit you sin and then quote Romans 7 to support you which means you actually think its normal or ok to be like this in Christ.
However it is you that does not understand this text so I will help you by pointing out some things you may have missed.
lets start at the beginning:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
So you accept the law is spiritual, and then confess that you are carnal still and are still sold under sin making you a slave to sin.
So you claim that you are not spiritual but carnal. is this the case?
IF not then why are you using these verses to substantiate your position?
what about this verse:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
This is in direct relation to the verses you just quoted so you also admit that you are not delivered and are headed to death.
You admit that you want to do good but can't cause you are a slave to sin. but you can be free in Christ.
So you claim to be carnal and not spiritual, you claim to be a slave to sin and you claim to be undelivered from death.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
you claim to be carnal.
and you claim the experience of the carnal mind:
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
you are not subject to the law of God and thus though you will to do good you can not do it.
but My God not only give us the will but the ability to do.
can the Romans 7 man do what He wills?
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
But God says:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
So God works to will and to do, so you confess that God is not working in you to do his good pleasure but only will.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
you confess that you delight in the law of God in the inward man but you are a slave to the law of sin. thus you are carnal and not spiritual.
but those who are spiritual it says:
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
We are strengthened in the inner man by the Spirit. no longer captive to the law of sin.
and again:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Those of us who are in Christ no longer walk according to the flesh which you admit walking according to. we by the Spirit in Christ are fee form the law of sin and death which you confess you are captive to the law of sin.
notice also:
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
classic slave to sin as it is written:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
your flesh lusts against the spirit and you cannot do the things you want to do. but we who walk in the spirit:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
are free from such things.
think carefully friend.
Just to clarify further:
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
who is the servant here?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Thus contextually the servant is one of sin. and the servant of sin is the one who sins. But Christ came to free us and them thus only those who are free from sin and do the works of God in them are Abraham's seed:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
who is the servant here?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Thus contextually the servant is one of sin. and the servant of sin is the one who sins. But Christ came to free us and them thus only those who are free from sin and do the works of God in them are Abraham's seed:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gods true Family are those of the spiritual. Had The Jews accepted Christ they would have been freed from sin and would have remained in Gods Family. But as they did not they remained in their sin and thus after Christ were no longer accepted as Gods Family. They remained slaves to their sin cause they did not accept the Son who alone could free them.
D
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble, I never saw the word sinless in scripture and the scriptures dont speak after that manner regarding it.
But in respects to grace sin shall not have dominion over you yes?
This keeps bugging me
I just dont understand how we should find it acceptable to believe that sin (in our members) should continue to have dominion over those under grace as grace is not the strength of sin.
Its almost as if to yeild to sin is the very norms of grace (which according to some) is without much of an effect upon it.
Its is more acceptable to say we continue to obey sin in the lusts thereof then to state you actually practice denying yourself (even as grace teaches)
The law had an effect while we were in the flesh (its the strength of sin). So sin would reign.
Why is it acceptable to admit the outworking of that (and its failure in us) then to admit the effect of grace which is to be the contrary?
I also dont understand how sin (in anyone) "and it" not having "dominion over" them (in the present) equals a person being proud or being as one who cannot say (that in the past) "they have" sinned (as all have) even as we know anyone who says otherwise is lying. But I also dont understand how it (by default) means that sin is not present in their members (thus making that equal to them saying that they are "without sin").
Why the big need for grace if it doesnt do anything?
But if it does and you continue to sin (under grace) then where is the power of grace (under the which) sin shall not have dominion over you?
Where is "that" particular effect?
Why is it considered evil to believe that the power of this grace (in relation to sin) can manifest in the actual effect its supposed to have?
These arent really directed at you (meaning I dont want you to feel I am backing you into a corner, or expecting you to answer each one) especially given your response above. I should know not to ask you, but it made a good springboard for what has been on my mind and I could ask elsewhere because folks get really rude around this subject. And to me it just appears they are equating things that when you look closer dont appear to be thre.
Anyway, not sure if I even put that out there as articulately as I should, but this one greatly bothered me but its something you cant talk to just anyone about.
But in respects to grace sin shall not have dominion over you yes?
This keeps bugging me
I just dont understand how we should find it acceptable to believe that sin (in our members) should continue to have dominion over those under grace as grace is not the strength of sin.
Its almost as if to yeild to sin is the very norms of grace (which according to some) is without much of an effect upon it.
Its is more acceptable to say we continue to obey sin in the lusts thereof then to state you actually practice denying yourself (even as grace teaches)
The law had an effect while we were in the flesh (its the strength of sin). So sin would reign.
Why is it acceptable to admit the outworking of that (and its failure in us) then to admit the effect of grace which is to be the contrary?
I also dont understand how sin (in anyone) "and it" not having "dominion over" them (in the present) equals a person being proud or being as one who cannot say (that in the past) "they have" sinned (as all have) even as we know anyone who says otherwise is lying. But I also dont understand how it (by default) means that sin is not present in their members (thus making that equal to them saying that they are "without sin").
Why the big need for grace if it doesnt do anything?
But if it does and you continue to sin (under grace) then where is the power of grace (under the which) sin shall not have dominion over you?
Where is "that" particular effect?
Why is it considered evil to believe that the power of this grace (in relation to sin) can manifest in the actual effect its supposed to have?
These arent really directed at you (meaning I dont want you to feel I am backing you into a corner, or expecting you to answer each one) especially given your response above. I should know not to ask you, but it made a good springboard for what has been on my mind and I could ask elsewhere because folks get really rude around this subject. And to me it just appears they are equating things that when you look closer dont appear to be thre.
Anyway, not sure if I even put that out there as articulately as I should, but this one greatly bothered me but its something you cant talk to just anyone about.
Paul is approaching this issue from a heart that doesn't want to sin. If the inner man changes his mind & wants to sin, then the results would be different. If the individual isn't warring against his flesh, but rather agreeing with it, this individual is going to be judged according to his heart's desire, & not trying to put his flesh under subjection to the Lord.
I don't think it is the denial of the power of grace as much as it is that someone will say they are above sin and don't sin......I will use me for an example.....
80's wild as a pet coon, drugs, immoral
90 move to get right, studying the word, submitting to the word, in church growing more faithful every day (struggling with sin)
92 Faithful in church, teaching, giving helping the poor (way less sin and way more faithful)
92-today Still studying, still serving in some form or fashion and don't live a continual lifestyle of sin like in the 80's, but not completely without sin........and still have a thorn or two in the flesh
We are all a work in progress and to say one doesn't sin contradicts John....
If we say that we have NO SIN we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US.............
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But thats what I mean, it speaks of it differently, in one place, about denying you have (past tense) as we all know all have, then it speaks of sin in our members, thus we HAVE sin, what good is grace for (in respects to the power of the same) if its not even in us? See what I mean? Like I dont see some folks denying this (as is often supposed) in respects to their conversations however that doesnt mean the person (wrangling with them) and getting made at them didnt miss that part.
Its the way some folks speak of it, some speak of it more rightly then others, but it seems there are those on the otherside of the issue missing the speak (or the way the other is speaking of it). And I'll always snag the words not in scripture right off the bat.
Just seems folks can miss each other very easily on this issue.
Its the way some folks speak of it, some speak of it more rightly then others, but it seems there are those on the otherside of the issue missing the speak (or the way the other is speaking of it). And I'll always snag the words not in scripture right off the bat.
Just seems folks can miss each other very easily on this issue.
Ok now we're getting somewhere. The house is the spiritual seed of Abraham (true Family). Back to your original post.
You said:
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
So according to your understanding of the servant (the one who serves sin) and the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), here's what we have:
The servant (the one who serves sin) initially abides in the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), even though they are not free from sin. But later they are kicked out because they are not free from sin.
That makes no sense gotime. All I did was plug your definition of "house" into the verse.
You said:
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
So according to your understanding of the servant (the one who serves sin) and the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), here's what we have:
The servant (the one who serves sin) initially abides in the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), even though they are not free from sin. But later they are kicked out because they are not free from sin.
That makes no sense gotime. All I did was plug your definition of "house" into the verse.