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gotime

Senior Member
#701
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#701
KJV1611 said:
Ok now we're getting somewhere. The house is the spiritual seed of Abraham (true Family). Back to your original post.
You said:



Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

So according to your understanding of the servant (the one who serves sin) and the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), here's what we have:

The servant (the one who serves sin) initially abides in the house (the spiritual seed of Abraham, true family), even though they are not free from sin. But later they are kicked out because they are not free from sin.

That makes no sense gotime. All I did was plug your definition of "house" into the verse.
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It does make sense if you see the whole picture. Jesus has in mind a picture from Prophecy:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God gave Israel a time to put an end to sin. They were considered His People until the time expired then if they had not done this they were rejected.

This time started when they were freed from captivity and ended when?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

The crucifixion of Jesus and they were given 3 and a half years after that to repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah through the preaching of the Disciples. After they rejected these the Gospel went out to the Gentiles in power.

SO it is God gave them time to cease from sin by accepting Jesus. But after their rejection they were left in their sins.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#702
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#702
gotime said:
It does make sense if you see the whole picture. Jesus has in mind a picture from Prophecy:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God gave Israel a time to put an end to sin. They were considered His People until the time expired then if they had not done this they were rejected.

This time started when they were freed from captivity and ended when?

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

The crucifixion of Jesus and they were given 3 and a half years after that to repent and accept Jesus as the Messiah through the preaching of the Disciples. After they rejected these the Gospel went out to the Gentiles in power.

SO it is God gave them time to cease from sin by accepting Jesus. But after their rejection they were left in their sins.
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God Gave them time to understand that Jesus was the answer and the one to whom the law and the prophets pointed to. You and I don't have this same option because we are meant to start on the true foundation. We are called to enter this truth from the beginning, they were given time to grasp that Jesus was the one who alone could free them from sin.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#703
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#703
You have admitted you are still a slave to sin as I address in post 691. but you can be free in Jesus. I don't preach bondage you are already in bondage by your own confession.

But if Christ shall make you free you shall be free indeed. We have all the truth already we can be free. For them Jesus was on the scene teaching them the truth and they had time to accept it.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#704
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#704
DesiredHaven said:
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble, I never saw the word sinless in scripture and the scriptures dont speak after that manner regarding it.

But in respects to grace sin shall not have dominion over you yes?

This keeps bugging me

I just dont understand how we should find it acceptable to believe that sin (in our members) should continue to have dominion over those under grace as grace is not the strength of sin.

Its almost as if to yeild to sin is the very norms of grace (which according to some) is without much of an effect upon it.

Its is more acceptable to say we continue to obey sin in the lusts thereof then to state you actually practice denying yourself (even as grace teaches)

The law had an effect while we were in the flesh (its the strength of sin). So sin would reign.
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I would love to discuss this with you DesiredHaven. If you're interested, let's take your post one point at a time.

You're right, scripture does not speak of us being sinless, but some people teach that if we sin we loose our salvation which is absolutely not true. When we get saved, we don't stop sinning... we may slow down a bit but the sin nature is still in this fleshly body.

Does sin have dominion over me? It depends on what you mean by that. Do I still sin... yes. Do I have absolute control over me sinning... no. So from the point of view of me controlling sin, sin has dominion over me. It is more powerful than my will not to sin. But when Romans 6:14 says "sin shall not have dominion over you", it's not talking about me controlling my sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why does sin not have dominion over us? Is it because now that we are saved, we have the power to overcome our sinful nature. Not according to Paul in Romans 7. Paul says he does the things he doesn't want to do and he has trouble doing the things he wants to do. He still has a sin nature and he does not have dominion over it. If he did, he would do the things he wanted to do and wouldn't do the things he doesn't want to do.

The reason sin does not have dominion over us is because we are not under the law. That is a huge statement! Paul said: without the law, sin is dead. Sin can't have dominion over me if sin is dead.

I was alive once without the law when I was a child... I had no understanding of the law as a child and I was sinless because where there is no law, there is no sin. But when I became old enough to understand the law, sin slew me. This is what Paul was talking about in Romans 7:8-11.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So what I'm getting as is this. To say that sin doesn't have dominion over us does not mean that we have the power stop sinning, it means the power sin through the law is broken... sin no longer has dominion over us.
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#705
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#705
gotime said:
You have admitted you are still a slave to sin as I address in post 691. but you can be free in Jesus. I don't preach bondage you are already in bondage by your own confession.

But if Christ shall make you free you shall be free indeed. We have all the truth already we can be free. For them Jesus was on the scene teaching them the truth and they had time to accept it.
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You know all of the stuff you said is well and good, and some of is accurate and some of it is not. But all the things you posted have nothing to do with John 8:34-36.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
 
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DesiredHaven

Guest
#706
#706
KJV1611 said:
I would love to discuss this with you DesiredHaven. If you're interested, let's take your post one point at a time.

You're right, scripture does not speak of us being sinless, but some people teach that if we sin we loose our salvation which is absolutely not true. When we get saved, we don't stop sinning... we may slow down a bit but the sin nature is still in this fleshly body.

Does sin have dominion over me? It depends on what you mean by that. Do I still sin... yes. Do I have absolute control over me sinning... no. So from the point of view of me controlling sin, sin has dominion over me. It is more powerful than my will not to sin. But when Romans 6:14 says "sin shall not have dominion over you", it's not talking about me controlling my sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why does sin not have dominion over us? Is it because now that we are saved, we have the power to overcome our sinful nature. Not according to Paul in Romans 7. Paul says he does the things he doesn't want to do and he has trouble doing the things he wants to do. He still has a sin nature and he does not have dominion over it. If he did, he would do the things he wanted to do and wouldn't do the things he doesn't want to do.

The reason sin does not have dominion over us is because we are not under the law. That is a huge statement! Paul said: without the law, sin is dead. Sin can't have dominion over me if sin is dead.

I was alive once without the law when I was a child... I had no understanding of the law as a child and I was sinless because where there is no law, there is no sin. But when I became old enough to understand the law, sin slew me. This is what Paul was talking about in Romans 7:8-11.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So what I'm getting as is this. To say that sin doesn't have dominion over us does not mean that we have the power stop sinning, it means the power sin through the law is broken... sin no longer has dominion over us.
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Thank you very much for taking the time out to answer me in respects to how you are seeing this. Much appreciated KJV1611
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#707
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
#707
Stephen63 said:
Paul is approaching this issue from a heart that doesn't want to sin. If the inner man changes his mind & wants to sin, then the results would be different. If the individual isn't warring against his flesh, but rather agreeing with it, this individual is going to be judged according to his heart's desire, & not trying to put his flesh under subjection to the Lord.
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The saved Spirit (inner man) and the flesh will war till the day that the flesh goes to the ground and or the Lord comes again and changes those who are alive and remain........Yes a spiritual man will have way more victories than the flesh, but that does not alleviate the fact that the flesh wins sometimes and a saved child of God sins.....
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#708
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#708
KJV1611 said:
You know all of the stuff you said is well and good, and some of is accurate and some of it is not. But all the things you posted have nothing to do with John 8:34-36.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
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Typical instead of addressing scripture Just say no your wrong. that fixes everything. I did a whole post and supposedly I haven't addressed it but you just can't show me how. so nothing personal but you saying I some is not means nothing really cause it has nothing to back it up.

anyway guess we are done then. Blessings
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#709
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#709
You know its funny but in the end its experience people are arguing form and not scripture.

You would think Christians would be happy at the prospect of being free from sin in Christ.
 
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michael56

Banned
#710
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
0
#710
gotime said:
.


Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Jesus says I know you are Abraham's seed/physical seed not spiritual seed which is where true freedom is.

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

So here Jesus makes it clear that if they were Abraham's true children then they would do the works of Abraham.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But they did not and thus were Slavs to sin. they did not obey. But their greatest sin was to no believe on Jesus as the messiah and thus they could not be freed from slavery to sin. and Jesus makes it clear that the one who sins is a slave to sin.

.
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Did Abraham keep God's commands, statutes and laws when he took his wife to Egypt?
 
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michael56

Banned
#711
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
0
#711
gotime said:
It is grave error to suggest that cause the Pharisees tried to keep the law in their own strength and compelled others to do so that all who keep the law and teach to do so are in the same error.

.
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It is not grave error to say the hypocrisy of the Pharisees was demanding of others what they did not attain to in their own lives. I cannot imagine whyt some are uncomfortable with this obvious truth
 
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michael56

Banned
#712
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
0
#712
gotime said:
To say you are free from obedience to Gods law is exactly the same as saying you are free to sin. remember sin is breaking the law. Sin is disobedience to Gods law it is lawlessness.
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You are free from a righteousness before God of obedience to the law. A new Christian reading your words would most certainly link their continued salvation to law keeping. Therefore, they would not know the core of the Gospel message
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#713
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#713
michael56 said:
Did Abraham keep God's commands, statutes and laws when he took his wife to Egypt?
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what sort of question is that? what does it prove?

That like someone saying about me now, Did he keep God's commands, statutes and laws when he used to steal?

But I don't steal anymore and have paid back my thefts.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#714
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#714
michael56 said:
It is not grave error to say the hypocrisy of the Pharisees was demanding of others what they did not attain to in their own lives. I cannot imagine whyt some are uncomfortable with this obvious truth
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What is the purpose of this statement?

I have not said anything contrary to your statement.
 
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Ella85

Senior Member
#715
May 9, 2014
1,414
106
63
#715
gotime said:
You know its funny but in the end its experience people are arguing form and not scripture.

You would think Christians would be happy at the prospect of being free from sin in Christ.
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Tell me about it.... I come on here and I get a headache!
 
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michael56

Banned
#716
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
0
#716
gotime said:
what sort of question is that? what does it prove?

That like someone saying about me now, Did he keep God's commands, statutes and laws when he used to steal?

But I don't steal anymore and have paid back my thefts.
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It proves that Abraham did not perfectly obey God. As none perfectly obey today
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#717
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#717
michael56 said:
It proves that Abraham did not perfectly obey God. As none perfectly obey today
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That is an illogical conclusion. Does someone stuffing up mean they always stuffed up for the rest of their life? no not at all.
 
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michael56

Banned
#718
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
0
#718
gotime said:
That is an illogical conclusion. Does someone stuffing up mean they always stuffed up for the rest of their life? no not at all.
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Actually, my wifes minister has been doing a series of sermons on Abraham. Quite refreshing if I might say so. He has stressed Abraham's walk with God was not always simple and straightforward, and he made mistakes/sinned along the way
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#719
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#719
michael56 said:
Actually, my wifes minister has been doing a series of sermons on Abraham. Quite refreshing if I might say so. He has stressed Abraham's walk with God was not always simple and straightforward, and he made mistakes/sinned along the way
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He did make mistakes the wife one twice. It is however important to note that Abraham was not in rebellion. Not once if my memory recalls does Abraham disobey God. The wife issue for instance was a lack of faith on Abraham's part. But by the time Abraham has had Issac and is told to sacrifice Him Abraham has complete Faith in God.

Its a story of growth.
 
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