Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[psalm6819]

It depends on how you define sinless perfectionism. First, there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16). Second, I am not claiming to have acheived perfection and many other Anti-OSAS proponents will not make that claim, either. The key difference here is that one is not sinning with the thinking they are saved. I am talking about those types of sins that lead unto death such as lying, hating, murdering, lusting, stealing, and getting drunk, etc. Paul lists these sins several times and says at one point (in relation to those sins)..... "be not deceived" ..... "for the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." We are not talking about unintentional sins where a believer might drink socially at a restaurant and make another brother or sister to stumble (without their knowledge that they were being watched).

Yes, Jason we are responsible for unintentional sin. Missing the mark- not unintentionally missing the mark-missing the mark, THAT is why His grace is sufficient (and more than sufficient!!!) When someone TRULY understands the magnititude of thier sin and how utterly worthlees thier efforts are Then comes the ephiphany of the WORTHINESS of the LAMB.

An obediance born of love changes the heart not counting sins instead of blessing. I obey because I love Him so much, any good thing I do stems from wanting to please Him not worrying about rule keeping.

The focus on doing good like Jesus did, aware everyday He intercedes for me and understand I will fall but extends His Hand of mercy to help me up not beat me down.

 

[Jason0047]

first off. 1 John is speaking of physical death, not spiritual.

second. they law does not differentiate between sins (break even the least of the law. you found guilty of it all as james says)

third. I am not sinning thinking I am saved, When I sin, it just proves how totally wretched I still am. As apposed to you. WHo thinks you are holy, and when you sin you just "mess up" and excuse your sin by using first john 1: 9

First, you believe 1 John 1:9 is talking about physical death NOT because the 1st epistle of John says that. For please show me where in the context of John's 1st epistle that it is talking about physical death. I read 1st John and I see a constant contrast between spiritual life and spiritual death. Light and darkness. Righteousness and sin. God and the devil. There is no mention of any physical death. That is what you would want the passage to say, so you just believe that.

Second, as for James statement about the Law: He is talking about the Law of Moses and not all the Laws of God or the Law of Christ under the New Covenant. For if that was the case, then if one broke one law, then they would be breaking the law that tells them that they are not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Which can never be forgiven).

Third, when a believer employs 1 John 1:9 , they are acting upon what Scripture says and they are being humble before God with what one has done wrong before the Lord. They are not abiding in their sin as a way of life and living in that sin with no real remorse. It is essentialy one saying they are "sorry" instead of moping about how one is a sinner and can't help it. It is about putting on the new man which shows one is truly born again or not. For the Scriptures say, they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, Jason we are responsible for unintentional sin. Missing the mark- not unintentionally missing the mark-missing the mark, THAT is why His grace is sufficient (and more than sufficient!!!) When someone TRULY understands the magnititude of thier sin and how utterly worthlees thier efforts are Then comes the ephiphany of the WORTHINESS of the LAMB.

An obediance born of love changes the heart not counting sins instead of blessing. I obey because I love Him so much, any good thing I do stems from wanting to please Him not worrying about rule keeping.

The focus on doing good like Jesus did, aware everyday He intercedes for me and understand I will fall but extends His Hand of mercy to help me up not beat me down.

I am not interested in what you believe. I am interested in what you think 1 John 1:9 says.

 

[KJV1611]

8.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth isnot in us. 9. Ifwe confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and hisword is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

Soif confess our sins, and not fight for them, like people's do today,then our Lord will clean us for our sins, like the Scriptures alsotell us, if we read the whole subject, because I think it is very common, that people's use only a part of this subject, when they try to convince, that man can't live without sinning.

But man can, and man should live without sinning.

Donot deceive your selves, but be truthful so you may com clean fromsinning.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we say that have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we sin and confess our sins, he will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If we say we have not sinned then we make God a liar and God's word is not in us.

What part am I misunderstanding?

 

[psalm6819]

No, you are in direct violation of 1 John 1:9 by your belief here. Tell me, what does 1 John 1:9 mean to you? Does it mean anything to you?

It means that I confess the need for Jesus Christ, for His blood to pay the price for disobediance, myand unbelief, my trying to "do" good enough to make up for my bad. Jesus didn't die to make bad people good. He died to make dead people alive. I was dead in sin because of Jesus redemptive sacrifice I'm a child of the Living God.

1 John !:9 means everything to me. It's the gospel. Repent, 180 degree turn. Depend on Jesus Holy Spirit will guide

Read the Bible, I, not a false doctrine person. I just understand the value of Jesus blood and I thank God for His mercy and I praise Him for His goodness.

I'm sorry you think I'm going to hell or that I would knowingly send someone else..

 

[Sophia]

So, what we all agree on is:
That we are to pursue righteousness.
That we are to abstain from sin.
That when we sin, we must confess the sin and turn from it.

What we disagree on is WHY we do these things. In practice, we agree. In doctrine, we differ. A very odd thing indeed.


Those who claim that perfection has come upon them are not who I am referring to in this comparison. They are not in line with the Scriptures, but have deceived themselves.

 

[dcontroversal]

"If we confess our sins" is in the present tense. In Greek, the present tense is less concerned with present time than with ongoing or habitual action. The intent is not that each individual sin must be individually acknowledged and confessed. The intent is that we genuinely desire to cease from doing things that add to the Lord's suffering; and earnestly desire his help in turning from them.

And what I like about the whole discourse given by John is the following....

1. John who is the disciple described as the one that loved Jesus and the one that Jesus loved (notwithstanding the fact he loved all)
2. John writes almost 25% of the New Testament
3. This very man includes himself when he writes....if WE say that WE have no sin and WHEN WE sin........

It amazes me that some will place themselves above John and his level of righteousness to say that they DO not sin, can go days, weeks, months and years without sin and or excuse their sin under the banners of...(messed up, slipped up, fouled up) and or differentiating between sins while ignoring that to break the LEAST of God's command makes one as guilty as a murderer or a thief, liar etc......

 

[Sophia]

First, you believe 1 John 1:9 is talking about physical death NOT because the 1st epistle of John says that. For please show me where in the context of John's 1st epistle that it is talking about physical death. I read 1st John and I see a constant contrast between spiritual life and spiritual death. Light and darkness. Righteousness and sin. God and the devil. There is no mention of any physical death. That is what you would want the passage to say, so you just believe that.

Second, as for James statement about the Law: He is talking about the Law of Moses and not all the Laws of God or the Law of Christ under the New Covenant. For if that was the case, then if one broke one law, then they would be breaking the law that tells them that they are not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Which can never be forgiven).

Third, when a believer employs 1 John 1:9 , they are acting upon what Scripture says and they are being humble before God with what one has done wrong before the Lord. They are not abiding in their sin as a way of life and living in that sin with no real remorse. It is essentialy one saying they are "sorry" instead of moping about how one is a sinner and can't help it. It is about putting on the new man which shows one is truly born again or not. For the Scriptures say, they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

EG was referring to 1 John 5, about the sin that leads to death being physical death, like Ananias and Saphira.
1 John 1:9 isn't dealing with death, so how could EG interpret it as dealing with physical death?

God chastises those whom He loves, even to the point of death. If they were not His Child, He would not chastise them so. 1 Peter explains this clearly.

 

[Sophia]

The strawman here is that those who believe in eternal security are careless about sin.
Nonsense.

That is the only argument for this Arminianistic doctrine, and it is based on the false premise that eternal security somehow excuses sin.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Don't know if this has been brought up here before but thought it may be helpful for further discussions on the topic of 1 John in general.......

" 1 John was written to believers presently facing an internal church problem of false teachers (Gnostics)."

"C. This letter is a powerful theological treatise

1. The centrality of Jesus
a. fully God and fully man
b. salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ, not a mystical experience or secret knowledge (false teachers)
2. The demand for a Christian lifestyle (three tests of genuine Christianity)
a. brotherly love
b. obedience
c. rejection of the fallen world system
3. The assurance of eternal salvation through faith in Jesus of Nazareth ("know" used 27 times)
4. How to recognize false teachers"

Source:

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, Jason we are responsible for unintentional sin. Missing the mark- not unintentionally missing the mark-missing the mark, THAT is why His grace is sufficient (and more than sufficient!!!) When someone TRULY understands the magnititude of thier sin and how utterly worthlees thier efforts are Then comes the ephiphany of the WORTHINESS of the LAMB.

An obediance born of love changes the heart not counting sins instead of blessing. I obey because I love Him so much, any good thing I do stems from wanting to please Him not worrying about rule keeping.

The focus on doing good like Jesus did, aware everyday He intercedes for me and understand I will fall but extends His Hand of mercy to help me up not beat me down.

Didn't say we were not responsible for unintentional sin; I am saying it is the type of sin that does not lead unto spiritual death for the believer.

 

[Jason0047]

It means that I confess the need for Jesus Christ, for His blood to pay the price for disobediance, myand unbelief, my trying to "do" good enough to make up for my bad. Jesus didn't die to make bad people good. He died to make dead people alive. I was dead in sin because of Jesus redemptive sacrifice I'm a child of the Living God.

1 John !:9 means everything to me. It's the gospel. Repent, 180 degree turn. Depend on Jesus Holy Spirit will guide

Read the Bible, I, not a false doctrine person. I just understand the value of Jesus blood and I thank God for His mercy and I praise Him for His goodness.

I'm sorry you think I'm going to hell or that I would knowingly send someone else..

But how can you believe in a 180 turn if you just denied in confessing one's sins as being necessary to forgive sin? Are you not cleansed of unrighteousness and forgiven sin by confessing it by 1 John 1:9?

 

[Jason0047]

Don't know if this has been brought up here before but thought it may be helpful for further discussions on the topic of 1 John in general.......

" 1 John was written to believers presently facing an internal church problem of false teachers (Gnostics)."

"C. This letter is a powerful theological treatise

1. The centrality of Jesus
a. fully God and fully man
b. salvation comes by faith in Jesus Christ, not a mystical experience or secret knowledge (false teachers)
2. The demand for a Christian lifestyle (three tests of genuine Christianity)
a. brotherly love
b. obedience
c. rejection of the fallen world system
3. The assurance of eternal salvation through faith in Jesus of Nazareth ("know" used 27 times)
4. How to recognize false teachers"

Source:

How are you forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9?

 

[dcontroversal]

EG was referring to 1 John 5, about the sin that leads to death being physical death, like Ananias and Saphira.
1 John 1:9 isn't dealing with death, so how could EG interpret it as dealing with physical death?

God chastises those whom He loves, even to the point of death. If they were not His Child, He would not chastise them so. 1 Peter explains this clearly.

They wrongfully teach that Ananias and Saphira died lost because God took their physical life and they didn't have a chance to repent.......even though there is not ONE verse that states that.....!

 

[Jason0047]

The strawman here is that those who believe in eternal security are careless about sin.
Nonsense.

That is the only argument for this Arminianistic doctrine, and it is based on the false premise that eternal security somehow excuses sin.

Confessing sin is a necessary practice for a true believer. Many Eternal Security proponents does not believe it is necessary to confess in order to be forgiven of sin like the passage says. For it says, "if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us....." 1 John 1:9 does not say, "if we have a mental acknowledgement that Jesus is our Savior, etc."

In other words, they are not going to the Physician in order to be healed properly. They are trying to seek forgiveness their own way instead of what the Word of God says. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Jason0047]

They wrongfully teach that Ananias and Saphira died lost because God took their physical life and they didn't have a chance to repent.......even though there is not ONE verse that states that.....!

Ananais and Saphira did die spiritually. For why on Earth would FEAR fall upon the church and all who heard about their deaths? Everyone dies regardless. The brethren do not feel fear when they know one of their brothers has gone to be with the Lord. They might feel sad because they will miss him for a while, but it doesn't make sense that they would have the emotion of fear if they were just going to be with the Lord in Heaven. For when does God reward wickedness or sin? Would not Heaven be a reward?

 

[dcontroversal]

Ananais and Saphira did die spiritually. For why on Earth would FEAR fall upon the church and all who heard about their deaths? Everyone dies regardless. The brethren do not feel fear when they know one of their brothers has gone to be with the Lord. They might feel sad because they will miss him for a while, but it doesn't make sense that they would have the emotion of fear (With your OSAS type belief).

No they didn't....the only reason you wrongfully believe that is because of your salvation lite doctrine and you erroneously believe one can lose salvation.......they died physically, just like the Corinthian church members who had corrupted the Lord's supper, just like the one who were to be cut lose for the destruction of the flesh......SORRY your doctrine is corrupt Jason...Jesus saves the spirit eternally not temporarily......and to base your belief on the above is erroneous at best.....Death, regardless of a mans spiritual state is a fear even among many who truly believe...even Jesus sweat drops of blood and asked for a possibility of the cup to be passed from him....

 

[Sophia]

Ananais and Saphira did die spiritually. For why on Earth would FEAR fall upon the church and all who heard about their deaths? Everyone dies regardless. The brethren do not feel fear when they know one of their brothers has gone to be with the Lord. They might feel sad because they will miss him for a while, but it doesn't make sense that they would have the emotion of fear if they were just going to be with the Lord in Heaven. For when does God reward wickedness or sin? Would not Heaven be a reward?

Fear of condemnation brought upon those who have no fear of condemnation? Sounds contradictory.
Fear of chastisement from the active sovereign Almighty is certainly enough to warrant fear.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

How are you forgiven of sin according to 1 John 1:9?

LOL,....... My sins were completely paid for through Jesus Christ's one atoning sacrifice for all at the cross. Btw, i'm not under Gnostic influence like those 1 John is addressed to who were mere children in Christ being swayed by carnal reasonings.

Btw, How are you doing today J?
Can you answer that question?
or is that to perplexing for you as well?

 

[maxwel]

One can find scripture to support this concept, and no doubt others can counter it with another.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.



Watch the counter strike

Also, what was the point in God creating planet earth if after all this suffering here on earth we go to be spirit persons in some spirit realm?, why not create us spirit persons in the beginning?. Seems to me God went to a lot of trouble to create such an amazing universe with phenomenal natural structures and plant life and animal life and human beings for them to suffer in this debauched world only to be with Him in this spiritual heaven, i can't get my head around that one, also, does this not mean that God is part to blame for the suffering of mankind?, something does not sit right with me on this subject at hand. Each to their own interpretation i suppose, but what a mess of confusion, no wonder atheists mock sometimes, not that i agree with mocking but it can be a little disconcerting, imho.

Kedge,

Your profile says you're "unsure" if you're a Christian.
By any biblical definition, that would mean you aren't a Christian yet.
I understand that, and I think you're probably trying to be very honest about your position.

Most people who are not christians only come here to amuse themselves by arguing.

If you are genuinely concerned about all of these questions you raise,
there ARE answers.
There are theological, philosophical, and logical answers.

Most of us don't waste our time digging into all of that stuff with people who aren't even here for serious reasons.
But if you ARE genuinely serious about getting REAL answers...
I'm sure there are plenty of people who could answer your questions.

There ARE plenty of answers.
Most people aren't serious about getting those answers.

God Bless,
Max