A question about the Lake of Fire
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Well the words like (suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE) and (the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER before the throne) and (ETERNAL DAMNATION) seem to indicate exactly how long it will last......I don't understand how people can read the above references and reject the eternal aspect of what God does.....
WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL...Nothing added, nothing taken away and he does it this way so men may FEAR BEFORE HIM........Ecclesiastes 3:14
WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL...Nothing added, nothing taken away and he does it this way so men may FEAR BEFORE HIM........Ecclesiastes 3:14
W
While of course many things cannot be said to be fully conclusive, as the interpretation of the evidence is always going to be influenced by presuppositions. I think the evidence is strongly for annihilation after judgement/punishment.
Some of the key points to study to determine for yourself I suppose would be:
The meaning and usage of the greek word aion throughout the Bible
The meaning and usage of the hebrew word owlam throughout the Bible
The usage of Smoke going up/Forever and ever (aion of aion) in Revelation 20 and its exact same usage to describe the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34
The verses in Ezekiel 28 which describe the complete destruction of Satan
The many many verses which state the fate of the wicked and wages of sin
The mortal nature of man
Immortality/eternal life being a result of being born again of the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 1 among other passages
God stating that His spirit would not contend with sinful man forever. Limiting his life to 120 years. Genesis 6:3
God's plan for creation to ultimately be free from imperfection, sin and pain for eternity
The impossibility of man to exist "apart" from God as evidenced in Job 17 and Psalm 139. - As many who do not believe in literal eternal torment claim the punishment of sin to be. Meaning "outer darkness"
The improbability of Jesus's parable of the rich man and Lazarus as being a literal description of eternity, especially when weighed against Revelation 21
The statement God made in Revelation 21 of how there will be no more pain, no more crying, no more mourning etc for eternity
The absence of the topic of eternal torment in the writings and acts of the apostles, Jesus and the Old Testament. If such a fate awaited man, you think it would be a topic preached frequently
The consideration of the greek mythological view of hell and how it became a part of Catholicism. Dante's Inferno etc
The beliefs held by ancient Israel on the topic
And many many other things
Also the different degrees of punishments mentioned in Mt. 11:20-22, Luke 12:47-48, John 19:11, Heb. 10:29.
When an eternity in a lake of fire would be a universally horrible punishment for all.
Hell being destroyed in Revelation 20
And some links with more info to consider
Hell-Fire: A Twisted Truth Untangled | Amazing Facts
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more
The Biblical Truth About Hell, Does it Last Forever?
concering the aions.
What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums this thread was on this forum and contains good information to consider all throughout the 15 pages.
Some of the key points to study to determine for yourself I suppose would be:
The meaning and usage of the greek word aion throughout the Bible
The meaning and usage of the hebrew word owlam throughout the Bible
The usage of Smoke going up/Forever and ever (aion of aion) in Revelation 20 and its exact same usage to describe the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34
The verses in Ezekiel 28 which describe the complete destruction of Satan
The many many verses which state the fate of the wicked and wages of sin
The mortal nature of man
Immortality/eternal life being a result of being born again of the Holy Spirit. 1 Peter 1 among other passages
God stating that His spirit would not contend with sinful man forever. Limiting his life to 120 years. Genesis 6:3
God's plan for creation to ultimately be free from imperfection, sin and pain for eternity
The impossibility of man to exist "apart" from God as evidenced in Job 17 and Psalm 139. - As many who do not believe in literal eternal torment claim the punishment of sin to be. Meaning "outer darkness"
The improbability of Jesus's parable of the rich man and Lazarus as being a literal description of eternity, especially when weighed against Revelation 21
The statement God made in Revelation 21 of how there will be no more pain, no more crying, no more mourning etc for eternity
The absence of the topic of eternal torment in the writings and acts of the apostles, Jesus and the Old Testament. If such a fate awaited man, you think it would be a topic preached frequently
The consideration of the greek mythological view of hell and how it became a part of Catholicism. Dante's Inferno etc
The beliefs held by ancient Israel on the topic
And many many other things
Also the different degrees of punishments mentioned in Mt. 11:20-22, Luke 12:47-48, John 19:11, Heb. 10:29.
When an eternity in a lake of fire would be a universally horrible punishment for all.
Hell being destroyed in Revelation 20
And some links with more info to consider
Hell-Fire: A Twisted Truth Untangled | Amazing Facts
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more
The Biblical Truth About Hell, Does it Last Forever?
concering the aions.
What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums this thread was on this forum and contains good information to consider all throughout the 15 pages.
depends on who you ask.
if you ask the Hebrew Jewish Believers in YAHSHUA, who YAHWEH entrusted with HIS WORD, and through whom YAHWEH brought SALVATION to the goyim,
you will get one answer.
if you ask the pagan influenced , greek influenced, english speaking (with dozens of translations that don't agree in many things) , so-called 'scholars' ,
you will get a different answer.
if you ask the Hebrew Jewish Believers in YAHSHUA, who YAHWEH entrusted with HIS WORD, and through whom YAHWEH brought SALVATION to the goyim,
you will get one answer.
if you ask the pagan influenced , greek influenced, english speaking (with dozens of translations that don't agree in many things) , so-called 'scholars' ,
you will get a different answer.
Its Eternal Suffering.. man in his carnal discernment 'changes' that.. and says God would never do something like that.. or says they will be obliterated without any knowledge of pain or suffering..
the Smoke of their 'torment' goes up forever.. Revelation
Someobody who is in 'torment'. is both conscious on their 'state'.. this state of 'pain and suffering'.. like when you get a 'high fever and burn'. you sometimes are delirious yet you 'know you are sick'.. the same with Gehenna fire.. Conscious and knowledgable of their position. those in Gehenna fire, the Wicked (damned) will just prior to that Recieve their resurrected sinful bodies they lived on in this earth.. resurrected to stand before their Judge.. the Christ.. at the GWTJ.. once tossed into Gehenna fire after Judgment.. their flesh/ bone.. will burn.. yet it will not consume them.. Understand Gehenna fire was never designed for 'man. but the devil and his angels that followed his 'lies'.. Man will be there because of his /her rebellion. this is Eternal Folks.. no asking the LORD to come out for a break, cookies coffee milk.. nope. its Eternal.. and God Himself will NOT BE THERE.. so you have eternal suffering by flesh/bone.. plus those there will have to deal with a supernatural creature , satan, that is placed there too to Suffer eternal torment.. not only torment but he will be ENRAGED and will more than likely pick on the flesh/bone he once decieved.. not only 'fire' torment.. but the torment from the Devil who will be Eternally damned along with those flesh/bone that followed him.. Christ's Life at the Tree.. provides a Way to avoid that.. His Life was SO VAULUABLE.. yet He Gave it at the Tree.. for Appeasement for the Father.. thats purdy wonderful.. Those who are Regenerated Genuinely, and are called Home by the Father, will not taste of the Lake of Fire.. for the 2nd Death has no power over them.. indeed! Glory be to the Father.. and what He accomplished at the Tree! Wow!
the Smoke of their 'torment' goes up forever.. Revelation
Someobody who is in 'torment'. is both conscious on their 'state'.. this state of 'pain and suffering'.. like when you get a 'high fever and burn'. you sometimes are delirious yet you 'know you are sick'.. the same with Gehenna fire.. Conscious and knowledgable of their position. those in Gehenna fire, the Wicked (damned) will just prior to that Recieve their resurrected sinful bodies they lived on in this earth.. resurrected to stand before their Judge.. the Christ.. at the GWTJ.. once tossed into Gehenna fire after Judgment.. their flesh/ bone.. will burn.. yet it will not consume them.. Understand Gehenna fire was never designed for 'man. but the devil and his angels that followed his 'lies'.. Man will be there because of his /her rebellion. this is Eternal Folks.. no asking the LORD to come out for a break, cookies coffee milk.. nope. its Eternal.. and God Himself will NOT BE THERE.. so you have eternal suffering by flesh/bone.. plus those there will have to deal with a supernatural creature , satan, that is placed there too to Suffer eternal torment.. not only torment but he will be ENRAGED and will more than likely pick on the flesh/bone he once decieved.. not only 'fire' torment.. but the torment from the Devil who will be Eternally damned along with those flesh/bone that followed him.. Christ's Life at the Tree.. provides a Way to avoid that.. His Life was SO VAULUABLE.. yet He Gave it at the Tree.. for Appeasement for the Father.. thats purdy wonderful.. Those who are Regenerated Genuinely, and are called Home by the Father, will not taste of the Lake of Fire.. for the 2nd Death has no power over them.. indeed! Glory be to the Father.. and what He accomplished at the Tree! Wow!
W
Here are some other things that are forever in the Bible:
The smoke rising from the destruction of Edom, even though it says right afterwards that the land would become inhabited by wild animals
Isaiah 34
And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the hawk and the porcupine[c] shall possess it,
the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
He shall stretch the line of confusion[d] over it,
and the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there to call it a kingdom,
and all its princes shall be nothing.
The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-
The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-
In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."
In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."
The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-
In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."
Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-
So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)
If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deuteronomy 15:12-17
Is Sodom still burning from eternal fire, is Edom still burning? What would happen if we were thrown into a lake of fire? We would die, unless God gave us immortality with a fireproof body that could still feel pain.
Revelation 20
This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”
The wages of sin is death.... Biblical support for sinners being destroyed could continue to be given all day, but only a small handful of verses can be given to support eternal torment and I have already studied them in depth until I was sure of what was true
The smoke rising from the destruction of Edom, even though it says right afterwards that the land would become inhabited by wild animals
Isaiah 34
And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the hawk and the porcupine[c] shall possess it,
the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
He shall stretch the line of confusion[d] over it,
and the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there to call it a kingdom,
and all its princes shall be nothing.
The Aaronic priesthood is said to be "everlasting," -Numb.25:13-
The land of Canaan is given as an "everlasting" possession, and "for ever" -Gen. 17:8...Gen. 18:15-
In Deut. 23:3, "for ever" is distinctly made an equivalent to "even to the tenth generation."
In Lamentations 5:19, "for ever and ever" is the equivalent of from "generation to generation."
The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen "for ever" -Lev. 25:46-
In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant "for ever."
Caleb obtains his inheritance "for ever" -Joshua 14:9-
So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.--(Ezek. 16:55)
If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and serves you six years, then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
And when you send him away free from you, you shall not let him go away empty-handed;
you shall supply him liberally from your flock, from your threshing floor, and from your winepress. From what the LORD has blessed you with, you shall give to him.
You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this thing today.
And if it happens that he says to you, 'I will not go away from you,' because he loves you and your house, since he prospers with you,
then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his ear to the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also to your female servant you shall do likewise. Deuteronomy 15:12-17
Is Sodom still burning from eternal fire, is Edom still burning? What would happen if we were thrown into a lake of fire? We would die, unless God gave us immortality with a fireproof body that could still feel pain.
Revelation 20
This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”
The wages of sin is death.... Biblical support for sinners being destroyed could continue to be given all day, but only a small handful of verses can be given to support eternal torment and I have already studied them in depth until I was sure of what was true
W
Is Sodom still burning? And if it is how could God fulfill His promise to restore it?
The only problem in your understanding is how the greek word "aion" and the hebrew word "owlam" are used in the Bible and in their native languages.
It would be like me saying, "I had to redo all the work we did yesterday by myself, it took forever" and then you would go around telling everyone I literally was redoing all the work we did yesterday forever and ever without end. I didn't mean it to literally mean for all eternity.
It doesn't even say sinners would be tormented forever and ever in Revelation, all it says is the beast and false prophet will be tormented there.
Does not ezekiel clearly say that Satan will be reduced to ashes and cease to exist?
The only problem in your understanding is how the greek word "aion" and the hebrew word "owlam" are used in the Bible and in their native languages.
It would be like me saying, "I had to redo all the work we did yesterday by myself, it took forever" and then you would go around telling everyone I literally was redoing all the work we did yesterday forever and ever without end. I didn't mean it to literally mean for all eternity.
It doesn't even say sinners would be tormented forever and ever in Revelation, all it says is the beast and false prophet will be tormented there.
Does not ezekiel clearly say that Satan will be reduced to ashes and cease to exist?
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The answer to this question is simple. What is a fire? It is the energy released from the combustion of physical materials. It destroys things.
An eternal fire, is a fire that is not extinguished. This does not mean there is torture or a kind of destruction or burning which is just pain without destruction, which is the picture many want to project.
No the death caused by the lake of fire is eternal, with no resurrection, annihilation. On the other-side the beast of revelations will be eternally tortured and will never be burnt up.
Now think a little deeper. Does eternal death mean a better option to eternal torture? Other than better justice and theology, I think it is just as valid an option to avoid, but it also underpins a deeper issue.
Sin is only fun because it is fed out of anger, loneliness and bitterness. It destroys our very being.
Life that Jesus brings is eternal, everlasting, strong, victorious and full of love. Now which would you rather have.
The empty church says something different. Have your existance today or burning in hell forever unless you do all these religious deeds etc. Now if you have no victory, or sense of the real eternal, what option can you provide other than beefing up the downside. So it is little wonder churches have often gone down this root out of desperation.
An eternal fire, is a fire that is not extinguished. This does not mean there is torture or a kind of destruction or burning which is just pain without destruction, which is the picture many want to project.
No the death caused by the lake of fire is eternal, with no resurrection, annihilation. On the other-side the beast of revelations will be eternally tortured and will never be burnt up.
Now think a little deeper. Does eternal death mean a better option to eternal torture? Other than better justice and theology, I think it is just as valid an option to avoid, but it also underpins a deeper issue.
Sin is only fun because it is fed out of anger, loneliness and bitterness. It destroys our very being.
Life that Jesus brings is eternal, everlasting, strong, victorious and full of love. Now which would you rather have.
The empty church says something different. Have your existance today or burning in hell forever unless you do all these religious deeds etc. Now if you have no victory, or sense of the real eternal, what option can you provide other than beefing up the downside. So it is little wonder churches have often gone down this root out of desperation.
Look dude, I am not going to argue with you.....I have studied intently the Greek words and Hebrew words used to describe eternal punishment....and on top of that you think you have a better understanding exactly why? God is clear in his word....the verbiage is clear in his word, the context is clear in his word and God eternally saves and God eternally punishes....I really don't care if you reject it.......!
W
Without going into the word aion and how the length of time it specifies is dependent on context and can just mean "age" (it is even translated as world, age, ancient time etc), let us look at this verse in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
It says that those who worship the beast will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of Jesus and the angels.
Do you think they have nothing better to do for all eternity than to watch this take place?
Then it says "The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night" -
So the "smoke of their torment" is what is said to go up "forever and ever". All that would be needed to fulfill the "day or night" portion would be one day and one night though I do not know how long it would actually take place