Jesus killed the law causing enmity to cease
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B
Ok so then if Yeshua is our High Priest, you are saying He didn't become that 'til after death.
I don't believe that.
Because He fullfilled the Torah when He died. correct? The whole of Torah. Not just bits and pieces. The whole of it. The only way He could have been able to fullfill the whole Torah is if He were a priest. Or has He not fullfilled it all then?
I don't believe that.
Because He fullfilled the Torah when He died. correct? The whole of Torah. Not just bits and pieces. The whole of it. The only way He could have been able to fullfill the whole Torah is if He were a priest. Or has He not fullfilled it all then?
B
Ok, but still for Yeshua to fullfill ALL of the Torah, it means He would have to fullfill ALL of the Torah. That includes the teaching part, otherwise He didn't fullfill all of it.
Or are you saying that Yeshua only had to fullfill bits and pieces?
I'm trying understand, but it's not making sense to me that He would just fulfill part of it but not all of it.
And based off of your statement, then technically every single rabbi in every single Jewish synagogue today is wrong and not allowed to teach Torah. Which is not true.
Also I did just re-read Dueteronomy 6.
I do not see once say that only priest are to teach this.
Having the basis of only priests could teach it, means that parents cannot teach it to their children.
Or are you saying that Yeshua only had to fullfill bits and pieces?
I'm trying understand, but it's not making sense to me that He would just fulfill part of it but not all of it.
And based off of your statement, then technically every single rabbi in every single Jewish synagogue today is wrong and not allowed to teach Torah. Which is not true.
Also I did just re-read Dueteronomy 6.
I do not see once say that only priest are to teach this.
Having the basis of only priests could teach it, means that parents cannot teach it to their children.
Nothing in the Torah required him to teach.
Nothing in the Torah required him to marry.
Nothing in the Torah required him to buy slaves, etc., etc., etc.
He fulfilled all that applied to him.
Not everything applied to him, nor did everything apply to anyone else.
The purification of child birth laws did not apply to him, etc.
"Allowed" and "required" are not the same thing.
Only priests are required to teach the law.
That does not forbid others from teaching it.
Nothing in the Torah required him to marry.
Nothing in the Torah required him to buy slaves, etc., etc., etc.
He fulfilled all that applied to him.
Not everything applied to him, nor did everything apply to anyone else.
The purification of child birth laws did not apply to him, etc.
"Allowed" and "required" are not the same thing.
Only priests are required to teach the law.
That does not forbid others from teaching it.
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B
I'm stating He taught the Torah, you're saying He didn't teach the Torah.
That's what the discussion is on, whether He taught it or not.
If He did not teach Torah, then all of His teachings were new, and were not based off of anything.
This would not be true, because there are times where He states "in the law of Moses, or in the Law"
If Yeshua is stating stuff like this, He is teaching Torah.
Where do the 2 greatest commandments come from?
The Torah.
Yeshua didn't just think of something new.
He reffered back to Torah, therefor teaching it.
That's what the discussion is on, whether He taught it or not.
If He did not teach Torah, then all of His teachings were new, and were not based off of anything.
This would not be true, because there are times where He states "in the law of Moses, or in the Law"
If Yeshua is stating stuff like this, He is teaching Torah.
Where do the 2 greatest commandments come from?
The Torah.
Yeshua didn't just think of something new.
He reffered back to Torah, therefor teaching it.
B
Um I only said the first thing, and I believe Yeshua to be the High Priest before and in death.
To say Torah is wrong, is to not follow the bible.
Paul calls the Torah: Holy, Just, and Righteous.
John says trangression of the law is sin.
So technically based off of what John says. If someone tells me not to follow the law, that person is telling me to go sin.
That's very contradicting to scripture.
B
Now Phil112, I'm just stating my view points. I don't know how much on here you've read.
I do not judge others on what their view point is.
I will not say someone is wrong, and I do not tell people I'm better than others either.
If someone tells me I'm wrong, or accuses me wrongly though, I will defend my position.
I think very logically.
I do not judge others on what their view point is.
I will not say someone is wrong, and I do not tell people I'm better than others either.
If someone tells me I'm wrong, or accuses me wrongly though, I will defend my position.
I think very logically.
How was what I said not according to the word of God?
Israel's righteousness came through obedience before God. Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Did they achieve righteousness in this manner? Nope . . . reason for the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So those born again, the church of God, the body of Christ are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ . . . But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. Romans 3
Israel's righteousness came through obedience before God. Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Did they achieve righteousness in this manner? Nope . . . reason for the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So those born again, the church of God, the body of Christ are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ . . . But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. Romans 3
B
My view points do align with scripture. If you read back at my earlier posts everything I've stated aligns with scripture. I think where the view points differ is when I look at the scriptures I'm looking at it that Yeshua and God are one. Yeshua was there at the beginning of creation (John 1, in Geniuses, and Deuteronomy 6). I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. I believe that God gave His people the Torah at Mt Sinai, I also believe that the Torah is a everlasting covenant between God and His people, in Genesis 17 God told Abraham that His covenant with him and all his descendants is an everlasting covenant. I believe that God's people are Israel, because God changed Jacob's name to Israel and that's what He called His people at Mt Sinai. I believe when someone comes to salvation they are graphed into Israel (there is multiple scriptures on this in the new testament). Now throughout Torah it states in a few places that it's suppose to be observed through all generations. Now to me, and a lot of people disagree with this, but through all generations means through all generations, it does not mean through all generations up until the cross. I'm pretty sure if God meant it to end at the cross, I'm pretty sure He would have told Moses this. Now after the fall of Israel this is where I believe scripture need to be studied very well and it's in the prophets and what they prophesied. After Israel split into north and south from what it is stated in the OT the northern kingdom completely abandoned Torah and God's ways and they were spread amongst the nations, they were scattered all over the earth, they were and in a way still are blind to the Torah and the ways of God. Now the southern kingdom ended up either coming back to Torah or kept it, I'd have to double check it. Anyway, they kept Torah, but eventually their pride in it blinded a lot of the religious leaders when Yeshua came. Now it is prophesied that God would return and gather His sheep. His sheep are the children of Israel, both kingdoms. It's stated throughout the prophets, and Yeshua states He is the good shepherd and He states He's gathering 2 flocks (this is reference to the lost tribes [northern kingdom] and Judah [southern kingdom]). Now also throughout the prophets it God doesn't only rebuke Israel, but also comforts Israel and says He'll bring them back to His ways. Now that I've pointed that out (and there is scripture to back all of that up).
Now we get into where my view probably differs from yours and others. Now Torah again is a covenant between God and His people. According to Torah when there is adultery someone must be a sin offering. Israel was in a covenant with God and was an adulterer by breaking away from His covenant. So God sent Himself as Yeshua to pay the price to cover that. From my understanding this is what it means He died for our sins, to give us a clean slate and come back into a covenant with Him, but this time instead of stone tablets He wrote it in our mind and on our hearts and He gave us access to the Spirit so we can be guided in our walk in His covenant. So based off of this God did not change His covenant, He changed us because now His covenant is within us.
Paul says the Torah makes us aware of sin, he doesn't say following Torah is sin. Paul even calls the Torah holy just and good.
The apostle John says sin is transgression of Torah.
King David, a man after God's heart said, "But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night."
So even though these are a few examples how can following Torah be wrong in any way?
This is my point of view based off of scripture. So please tell me where I'm wrong.
Now we get into where my view probably differs from yours and others. Now Torah again is a covenant between God and His people. According to Torah when there is adultery someone must be a sin offering. Israel was in a covenant with God and was an adulterer by breaking away from His covenant. So God sent Himself as Yeshua to pay the price to cover that. From my understanding this is what it means He died for our sins, to give us a clean slate and come back into a covenant with Him, but this time instead of stone tablets He wrote it in our mind and on our hearts and He gave us access to the Spirit so we can be guided in our walk in His covenant. So based off of this God did not change His covenant, He changed us because now His covenant is within us.
Paul says the Torah makes us aware of sin, he doesn't say following Torah is sin. Paul even calls the Torah holy just and good.
The apostle John says sin is transgression of Torah.
King David, a man after God's heart said, "But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night."
So even though these are a few examples how can following Torah be wrong in any way?
This is my point of view based off of scripture. So please tell me where I'm wrong.
The bliss of blind grace is not in the Word, but it is practiced and preached by many who misrepresent the Word, as you accuse.
As misrepresenting the Word is concerned, that term is not in the Word, but it too is practiced and preached by many. Please. do not search for any words at all to be clever and retort to those who are honestly attempting to build the Body of Christ, Yeshua. If you do not love me or others who are not exactly as you, at least allow them to continue in their Way given them by Christ. You see we do try our best to be as He; even those who lean more on Paul, though they have more difficulty. Now, back in the box for a while until your posts look more like edification and fellowship.
As misrepresenting the Word is concerned, that term is not in the Word, but it too is practiced and preached by many. Please. do not search for any words at all to be clever and retort to those who are honestly attempting to build the Body of Christ, Yeshua. If you do not love me or others who are not exactly as you, at least allow them to continue in their Way given them by Christ. You see we do try our best to be as He; even those who lean more on Paul, though they have more difficulty. Now, back in the box for a while until your posts look more like edification and fellowship.
i've seen people say Jesus didn't teach from the Torah, that He brought a new teaching. in Luke 4:16 it says as custom was jesus stood up to read. What was He reading? they didn't have nothing but Torah. Do some think Jesus was reading and then saying (oh don't pay no mind to that its old news)? Jesus doesn't change His mind, and play games with our mind.
W
1 WE establish the law by using and recognizing its proper function. "Even an heir, as long as he is a child is under tutors and governors" The law was a school master to bring us to Christ. 2 Paul is saying that he is following what the law and prophets were pointing towards, the messiah and the resurrection, which the jews hated. Even the sadducees and pharisees disagreed on whether there is a resurrection. 3 I'm not sure what you mean. It was said of old , thou shall not commit adultery ,but I say unto you if you look upon a woman with lust you have committed adultery already, Jesus increased the demands of the law, because it was now a heart issue , not an outside ordinance, and needful of being born again, with a new nature
L
Leviticus 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
Aaron was the second High Priest mentioned in the bible, before Aaron and his sons were made priests, the only mention of there being a High Priest, is in regards to Melchizedek.
Who was without Father or mother...So even before the Mosaic law was given(at least to the Hebrew people,) there was indeed a High Priest on this earth, "without father and without mother."
Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hebrews 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Not only was it the job of the High Priest to teach the law, but also to uphold it, putting a difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean, (As you can see in the Leviticus passages above.)
Even during the trial of Jesus the high priest at that time questioned Jesus, as to examine His responses by the Law.
Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Jesus answered, not only stating whom HE is, but he also referenced Palm and Daniel 7
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(Jesus even responded, with His own word, from the OT. He did the same when he answered the enemy during the temptation. Three times, responding with HIS word...
Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
The enmity between God and man is the carnal mind. It's not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Psalms 110 is one of many passages that foretold of the coming of the Messiah,
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
What is being put under His feet? All things that are corrupt, and all things that offend. As Paul stated, none of these things will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Psalms 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of
Melchizedek.
Psalms 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psalms 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
What do you think HIS standards are in Judgement?
Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
Aaron was the second High Priest mentioned in the bible, before Aaron and his sons were made priests, the only mention of there being a High Priest, is in regards to Melchizedek.
Who was without Father or mother...So even before the Mosaic law was given(at least to the Hebrew people,) there was indeed a High Priest on this earth, "without father and without mother."
Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Hebrews 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Not only was it the job of the High Priest to teach the law, but also to uphold it, putting a difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean, (As you can see in the Leviticus passages above.)
Even during the trial of Jesus the high priest at that time questioned Jesus, as to examine His responses by the Law.
Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Jesus answered, not only stating whom HE is, but he also referenced Palm and Daniel 7
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
(Jesus even responded, with His own word, from the OT. He did the same when he answered the enemy during the temptation. Three times, responding with HIS word...
Mark 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
The enmity between God and man is the carnal mind. It's not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Psalms 110 is one of many passages that foretold of the coming of the Messiah,
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
What is being put under His feet? All things that are corrupt, and all things that offend. As Paul stated, none of these things will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Psalms 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of
Melchizedek.
Psalms 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psalms 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
What do you think HIS standards are in Judgement?
Isaiah 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
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