what is your point, are you going to answer or speculate about some thing that is not written.
A question...
- Thread starter Bowhunter2394
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A
atwhatcost
Guest
I hope I'm allowed to ask questions.
If letting anger grow is a sin, then were we wrong for fighting Germany and/or Japan? Are we now wrong if we fight ISIS? I'm angry. I don't know if that makes me morally sinful. I'll never know when it comes to doing something about this anger, since I, personally, cannot go kill someone for doing something that wrong.
(I know. Not where you were going, but it's where my mind took me, and I don't quite understand all you meant.)
Don't mind me. I'm no biblical scholar. I'm merely checking out who thinks they are.
(I answer only without the assumption I'm a scholar.)
Im just a simple man, a person who loves to Bowhunt and fish, who has been Saved by His Grace, I also at times and long and wish I would depart from this planet, and be with Him.. some days its beyond human comprehension.. lolz.. Im still here when I awake so I know He has more things for me ... that I look forward to with Appreciation, some apprehension, but with a desire to Please Him, thru His Word and the only way thru the Power of the Spirit.. I want People to 'know' Him as I have come to know Him, and that has not been thru the groovy cool jesus trip, but standing at the foot of the tree, as Im crucified with Him Daily, thru oppresion, affliction, persecution, etc.. Refined.. indeed! oh the Sercurity you have when you know you are His Elect and that you are seated with Him in the Heavenlies and that no ONE can snatch you out of His Hand! To God be the Glory!
I am going to answer your question if you are not too lazy to read. I will have to begin with the presentation of the prohibition of the tree so this is going to take me some time. If you do not wish to pursue this then I will not waste my time unless someone else wants to read the material.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
His point, so far, is he's waiting for Bowhunter to give permission to derail Bowhunter's post. If it goes further from here, I'm still game to watch, (whispers the woman in the bleachers watching, and forgetting, sometimes, she's not answering the original question. lol)
answer away, this is not my Thread but those who are 'led' here by the Spirit... very simple.. we'll do the best on our part to answers questions as they are manifested... no problems here.. just may not get to them right away.. but will try..
A
atwhatcost
Guest
Me, me, me!!! (shouts the woman who has now forgot she was supposed to be whispering.)
EAASSSSYYYYY there big fella! lolz.. this post was started n the Spirit of meekness... eassssyyy..
Even if I already agree with what you say, I enjoy reading it and it helps me. Could you please share it?
LOL. It was not my intention to be antagonistic. It is just that my experience has been that often when people ask a question they find out they really do not want to know as much as they thought they did. I have learned to weed out the simple curiosity seekers from these who really wish to learn something. Most people are simply either too lazy or disinterested to do that much reading to discover answers.
You have someone here who has read the encyclopedia for fun....and I enjoy all of your posts. I read all of them. Length does not deter me.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
What do you think of Bob Dylan's Saved Album? Don't bother bringing in any background information regarding it, just answer my question.
Same kind of deal. That's not fair. To give a good answer (to an arbitrary question, in my case, but not in your case), he needs to go out further to answer. OldHermit said it's also going to take time to do that. Add to that you already told him you were fine with that.
It stopped being strictly your terms a while ago. That doesn't mean he's not going to answer your question. It means he's going to take the time to answer it thoroughly. You need to give him that since you already told him he could have that.
Patience is a virtue, whether it kills us or not.
would a song cause a emotional response, or physical action.What do you think of Bob Dylan's Saved Album? Don't bother bringing in any background information regarding it, just answer my question.
Same kind of deal. That's not fair. To give a good answer (to an arbitrary question, in my case, but not in your case), he needs to go out further to answer. OldHermit said it's also going to take time to do that. Add to that you already told him you were fine with that.
It stopped being strictly your terms a while ago. That doesn't mean he's not going to answer your question. It means he's going to take the time to answer it thoroughly. You need to give him that since you already told him he could have that.
Patience is a virtue, whether it kills us or not.
We are on the subject of Morality, good and evil, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil, from the Garden, Lets delve into Hebrews ... now lets take a look at These's pieces of Truth as Penned under the Inspiration of the Spirit..
For every one that useth Milk is unskilful in the Word of Righteousness: for he/she is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Now Here one is shown and Taught he/she has the Power to discern Good and Evil, 'knowing good and evil'.. what is the Source of that 'ability?' or should I say WHO is the Source of that.. and can one discern good and evil, outside that source? lets say a carnal man or woman.
For every one that useth Milk is unskilful in the Word of Righteousness: for he/she is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Now Here one is shown and Taught he/she has the Power to discern Good and Evil, 'knowing good and evil'.. what is the Source of that 'ability?' or should I say WHO is the Source of that.. and can one discern good and evil, outside that source? lets say a carnal man or woman.
Very well.
By oldhermit
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As we move from creation to the garden there develops an emerging discontinuity between man and his association with forbidden things. When man is unconstrained by revelation, he quite naturally draws conclusions based upon how he relates to the world around him. Man allows what he experiences to influence how he defines what is relevant. Once man learns to link the natural to the eternal, he learns to represent human events in quite a different way. One cannot build a triadic picture of reality based upon experiential logic. Human rationalization operating on its own cannot properly context the relationship of man to the natural world. Building a triadic picture of reality is only possible when one learns to represent human experience in the light of revelation. To do this, one must allow revelation to transcend experiential logic.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There is an example of triadic structure that demonstrates how the natural world and the supernatural world relate to one another in the eternal continuum. At the beginning of man’s history in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mentioned in the context of man’s relationship both to God and to the natural world. The text never seems to indicate that in the beginning there was any prohibition to the tree of life but that man was only denied access to the tree of knowledge. It was not until after the fall of man that God placed an angel with a flaming sword at the east of the garden to prohibit man’s access to the tree of life. The way in which Adam chose to represent these trees would reflect his understanding of his association with both God and the natural world. As the narrative unfolds, it becomes clear that access to the tree of life was predicated upon man’s observance of the divine prohibition of the other. Man was to have absolutely no contact with the tree of knowledge. God had provided every tree of the garden for man’s use and pleasure, but this tree was to be left strictly alone. These two trees stand as symbols of a world beyond man’s sensory existence. The tree of forbidden knowledge represents the holiness, the superiority, and the sovereignty of God. It suggests that God always reserves unto Himself the things that belong exclusively to him. It is not merely the tree that has exclusivity, but what that tree represents. As a whole, man is never content to abide by prohibitions. Here, he desires the one thing he is denied. How characteristic this has proven to be of human nature!
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Although man was given the highest place of honor as the crowning creation of God with dominion over all creation, this tree was a reminder that even man is not God. Man must stand in the index position of this triadic structure and link the tree of knowledge that he can see to the will of God whom he cannot see. He must also link this tree to revealed consequences that he cannot see and has never before experienced. For Adam to properly relate to both worlds he must learn to link the eternal world to the natural world by bringing God’s warning to bear upon his relationship to this tree. He must learn how to define the nature of his relationship to this tree based on what God had told him about it. Now, this epistemology did not just apply to this tree but extended to everything in man’s dominion. He must understand his relationship to all of his domain based upon this triadic epistemology. God had already defined his function in creation and man must relate to his world according to the words of the Lord. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From the beginning, man was confronted with a decision in his association with this icon of good and evil. This tree was a symbol of an unseen reality. T[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]here is a particular type of knowledge man was not equipped to handle and should not seek to obtain[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. The accessibility of the tree shows that man was also given the ability to obtain this knowledge. The prohibition laid down by God says that this knowledge is destructive to man. This reinforces man’s position as a subordinate creature to what is unseen. God had said, “From this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shalt not eat of it; for in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die.” Here is a divine standard given to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Since God has decreed that punishment will follow disobedience, the validity of God’s word is upheld. Divine judgment preserves divine justice because it is through the exercise of justice that God protects his holiness. Observance of this revelation becomes a matter of life and death. The ethics were simple; God said, “Don’t touch it.” This did not require a human analysis of ethics to decide what might be the right thing to do. Contact with the tree was evil both because God said it was evil, and because of what man would suffer as a result.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We know, because of how this tree is interpreted by the physical senses in the text that man, left on his own, could not arrive at this conclusion. Adam could not see what the tree represented. He could only see the physical dynamics of the tree. For the rest, he must rely upon what God had told him about the tree. Man requires instruction from God to protect him from that which he has no point of reference to understand. As the Creator, God understood things about the nature of man and his relationship to his environment that man did not know and was not created to know. Man was not endowed with the capacity to distinguish between good knowledge and evil knowledge. This truth has not changed. The knowledge provided by this tree was not a necessary component for man to fulfill his role within his assigned environment.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The environment of the garden supplied every conceivable human need. He was even given access to the tree of life and the garden was a secure environment where man had no experience with fear, shame, and disgrace. These were yet unknown elements. It was an aesthetic environment where God controlled access to knowledge. There were certain things that man knew by design, but the prohibition of the tree says that [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]there were those things which man should never want to know or seek to know[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In the garden, man enjoyed the presence of God and the full awareness of God. God knew that through disobedience man would be exiled from this controlled and protected environment and from his fellowship with God. By violating God’s prohibition, man challenged the sovereignty of God. Man does not have the authority to mandate a standard of moral conduct. The text of Genesis shows us that this level of knowledge belongs exclusively to God. Because man chose to behave sinfully, he is now confronted with a new reality. Adam is now aware of a particular type of knowledge that will forever change the way mankind represents the relationship he has with the natural world and with his God. It also laid a foundation by which humanity would forever be forced to choose between these two epistemologies. Should we represent reality based on revelation from God or should we rely on those things learned from pragmatic experiences? Which one will we depend upon to tell us the truth about what is relevant?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a revealed ethical standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]She relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relied instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belongs to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Satan’s temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knew nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent created doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that she was already like God. He creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best but he is also able to supply it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Satan then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.[/FONT]
