Ok I have one scripture for the sinless

Blain · Apr 24, 2015

Ephesians 4:29

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Colossians 3:8-10 ESV

But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator

Matthew 15:11

It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person

Proverbs 4:24

Put away from you crooked speech, and put devious talk far from you.

tribesman · Apr 24, 2015

Blain said:

What the sinless crowd will say about that is that they do still have the sin nature, they just don't do sin anymore. The point you must always stress is that those who desire to be justified by the law must keep every jot and tittle of it. That's where the sinless crowd goofs out.

phil112 · Apr 24, 2015

Blain said:

Tell you what, I'll concede that my irritation with you made it seem to me you are like a petulant brat. I raised 2 girls, and I am no stranger to snipey little attitudes.
If you didn't mean to come across like that, I apologize.
If you disagree with scripture, we will not ever get along on this forum.

Blain · Apr 24, 2015

phil112 said:

I responding kindly and patiently and continue to do so. But when did I disagree with scripture? we haven't even addressed it yet nor given our opinons on it so how did I disagree with it? I posted it asked you what you thought it meant how is that disagreeing with it?

dcontroversal · Apr 24, 2015

Blain said:

I agree......to say one is bound in a dead body of sin that occasionally fails and sins is not the same thing as saying one is sold out to sin....I for one get sick of those who say that they dont sin and or alleviate their sin under the banner of (messing up) or (slipping up)..John wrote this and included himself as an apostle, Paul calls himself the number 1 chief sinner among men close to his death in Rome, Daniel who has not one sin recorded about himself was CONFESSING his sins and including himself under the banner of the sins of Judah....To say one is without sin stes forth that they ARE DECEIVED and the TRUTH is NOT IN THEM....the ony aspect of man that DOES NOT SIN is that SPIRIT which has been born of GOD which is eternally sealed, justified, sanctified (positionally) in Christ for all eternity....it is bound in a WEAK, FALLEN, SINFUL, DEAD body and until the day that we are CHANGED and or resurrected in a NEW celestial, eternally righteous body there will be sins in the flesh that rear their ugly heads....

The PHARISEES claimed to be sinless and righteous whie condemning all of those low life sinners all around them......tells me all I need to know about those who boast of sinless, self righteous lives.......!

Lord, be merciful unto me a sinner.........!

1. This does not mean that we cannot conquer particular sins and or live a lifestyle of sin!

phil112 · Apr 24, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Friend Dcon, I never said I don't sin... I said we don't have to. And to disagree with me is to deny the bible as His word. We can stop sinning. It is a choice. Brother, make the choice to not sin. God doesn't lie. We can stop if we lean on Him.

prove-all · Apr 24, 2015

phil112 said:

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart;
and they defile the man.

Jason0047 · Apr 25, 2015

Blain said:

Well, one of the probllems when people read the Bible is that they read a verse and they do not look at the context. They just see a verse and go... "Ah ha! That is what I believe!" Yet they don't really read the surrounding verses to get the propler understanding on it. In 1 John 1:8, John was warning the brethren against a false group of believers (i.e. the secessionists) who were trying to seduce them with a bad theology (See 1 John 2:26). This bad theology allowed them believe they could walk in darkness and make the claim that they could have fellowship with God (See 1 John 1:6). This is what chapter 2 says, as well. For 1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So this is the context of 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. The secessionists were claiming they were without sin (i.e. they walked in darkness and yet claimed to have fellowship with him). To them, sin did not exist for them spiritually. It's as if they had never sinned according to their beliefs (See 1 John 1:10). In other words, to say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) is to deceive ourselves and the truth then is not in us. However, the true believer holds to the view that sin is very real and can place in danger their very souls. So if they do sin, then they confess their sins because he is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins (1 John 1:9). However, John does not give the brethren an excuse to sin or even to sin on occasion. John tells the brethren very clearly that they are to sin not in 1 John 2:1. However, if they do sin, they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (Meaning they can confess their sins to Jesus and be forgiven and cleansed of sin, i.e. 1 John 1:9).

So 1 John 1:8 is not dealing with ceasing with sin. If it did, then the Bible would be in contradiction with itself because 1 Peter 4:1 says believers can cease from sin by suffering in the flesh. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts; And Peter identifies certain false prophets as having not ceased from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about those false believers who believe they have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist for them). A similar group of believers today to the secessionists would be the Antinomian or OSAS proponent. They believe all sin is forgiven a believer: that all past, present, and future sin is forgiven. They believe that all sins were paid for at the cross. So when they sin, they don't sin spiritually but yet they believe they sin in the flesh (Which is deceptive and not true).

Actually, the 1st epistle of John defends the idea of ceasing from sin. 1 John 2:13-14 says that both the fathers and the young men (in the faith) have overcome the wicked one. This is what is confirmed in James 4:7. For it says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Blain · Apr 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Well, one of the probllems when people read the Bible is that they read a verse and they do not look at the context. They just see a verse and go... "Ah ha! That is what I believe!" Yet they don't really read the surrounding verses to get the propler understanding on it. In 1 John 1:8, John was warning the brethren against a false group of believers (i.e. the secessionists) who were trying to seduce them with a bad theology (See 1 John 2:26). This bad theology allowed them believe they could walk in darkness and make the claim that they could have fellowship with God (See 1 John 1:6). This is what chapter 2 says, as well. For 1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." So this is the context of 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10. The secessionists were claiming they were without sin (i.e. they walked in darkness and yet claimed to have fellowship with him). To them, sin did not exist for them spiritually. It's as if they had never sinned according to their beliefs (See 1 John 1:10). In other words, to say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) is to deceive ourselves and the truth then is not in us. However, the true believer holds to the view that sin is very real and can place in danger their very souls. So if they do sin, then they confess their sins because he is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins (1 John 1:9). However, John does not give the brethren an excuse to sin or even to sin on occasion. John tells the brethren very clearly that they are to sin not in 1 John 2:1. However, if they do sin, they have an advocate that they can go to named Jesus Christ (Meaning they can confess their sins to Jesus and be forgiven and cleansed of sin, i.e. 1 John 1:9).

So 1 John 1:8 is not dealing with ceasing with sin. If it did, then the Bible would be in contradiction with itself because 1 Peter 4:1 says believers can cease from sin by suffering in the flesh. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts; And Peter identifies certain false prophets as having not ceased from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

1 John 1:8 is for those false believers who believe they have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist for them). A similar group of believers today to the secessionists would be the Antinomian or OSAS proponent. They believe all sin is forgiven a believer: that all past, present, and future sin is forgiven. They believe that all sins were paid for at the cross. So when they sin, they don't sin spiritually but yet they believe they sin in the flesh (Which is deceptive and not true).

Actually, the 1st epistle of John defends the idea of ceasing from sin. 1 John 2:13-14 says that both the fathers and the young men (in the faith) have overcome the wicked one. This is what is confrimed in James 4:7. For it says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

That was a well thought and well written response Jason.So what about this what if one does all they can to not sin not by thier power of course but say they slip up every now and then and ask for forgiveness would then they be considered without sin only in the sense that Christ made them pure when they asked for forgiveness and forgot their sin as if it never happened. The scriptures you posted said to not sin and another said if one claims to be without sin the truth is not in them now a sinless doctrine clearly counters the verse I posted but if we were to look at it this way does it not make more sense?

Hepzibah · Apr 25, 2015

We must not wrest this verse out of the context of the book, as Jason has said, and the chapter in which it is written if we want to understand John. 1John was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church (and still is) and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church.

The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism. In order to understand the epistle we must ask ourselves the following questions, Why did John give these admonitions? Why did he repeat them frequently? Why has he admonished if he thought admonition necessary, merely in general terms and brotherly love?

The Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, (which is nowadays recognised as 'imputed righteousness' contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.

The basis of this error i.e. that a believer can still be in Christ and sin was made popular and spread through the church by Augustine who has spread this heresy throughout the Protestant and Catholic Church since.

If we look at verses 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in chapter 1,

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.

7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin

(BUT)

8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

(BUT)

9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

(BUT)

10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us

We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-

1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.

So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.

Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin nature to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.

But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5

My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6

He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9

Jason0047 · Apr 25, 2015

Blain said:

1 John 1:6 is the context of 1 John 1:8. 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. Walking in darkness is in relation to sin (of which we can see that is a repeated concept and clarified for us in 1 John 2:4). John tells us to sin not in 1 John 2:1. Meaning, John is not leaving the believer any excuse for sin. But if they happen to sin (not that John wants them to sin because he tells them to sin not), they can confess their sin to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

So there are two different extreme views or schools of thought on 1 John 1:8 today.

#1. The Antinomian or OSAS school of thought thinks 1 John 1:8 is teaching they will always sin (i.e. they will always sin in the flesh but they can't sin in the spirit because they have no more sin debt in Christ). However, the context does not support this line of thinking, though.

#2. The true believer (who just reads the Bible plainly in context) knows that 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 1:6. They realize that this is speaking of the false secessionist view. John is warning the brethren in 1 John 1:8 about this false theology. For the false believer thinks they have no sin whatsoever in the fact that it does not exist for them. Sort of like the Antinomian and OSAS proponent today thinks this way. They believe they have no sin in the spirit because Jesus took that sin away. But the true believer recognizes that sin is very real and if they do sin (Even though John tells them not to sin), then they have an advocate named Jesus Christ whereby they can confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed of it (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

pwrnJC · Apr 25, 2015

even though we are VICTORS in CHRIST by accepting JESUS as our LORD and Savior, we are still "SINNERS saved by Grace"..we cannot forget our PAST, but our future has been changed. Why does the simplicity of GOD elude us?

Hepzibah · Apr 25, 2015

I made a mistake in my last post: it should have read:

Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-

1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for perfection (not forgiveness).

We are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. There are three types of men: the unsaved, the carnal and the spiritual who are perfect and sinless.

Blain · Apr 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

1 John 1:6 is the context of 1 John 1:8. 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. Walking in darkness is in relation to sin (of which we can see that is a repeated concept and clarified for us in 1 John 2:4). John tells us to sin not in 1 John 2:1. Meaning, John is not leaving the believer any excuse for sin. But if they happen to sin (not that John wants them to sin because he tells them to sin not), they can confess their sin to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

So there are two different extreme views or schools of thought on 1 John 1:8 today.

#1. The Antinomian or OSAS school of thought thinks 1 John 1:8 is teaching they will always sin (i.e. they will always sin in the flesh but they can't sin in the spirit because they have no more sin debt in Christ). However, the context does not support this line of thinking, though.

#2. The true believer (who just reads the Bible plainly in context) knows that 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 1:6. They realize that this is speaking of the false secessionist view. John is warning the brethren in 1 John 1:8 about this false theology. For the false believer thinks they have no sin whatsoever in the fact that it does not exist for them. Sort of like the Antinomian and OSAS proponent today thinks this way. They believe they have no sin in the spirit because Jesus took that sin away. But the true believer recognizes that sin is very real and if they do sin (Even though John tells them not to sin), then they have an advocate named Jesus Christ whereby they can confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed of it (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

I don't know a lot about the osas group, I know it's a doctrine that believes once you are saved you cannot be unsaved but as for what kind of views and beliefs I figured it was like a lot of groups with the same doctrine- their beliefs and views vary

Radius · Apr 25, 2015

phil112 said:

If you have to have someone explain scripture, that's okay. If you come on a bible forum and spout like you know scripture, and then duck like a dodge ball player, you're weak.
You don't know scripture. You're weak. And I owe no one an explanation if that explanation isn't going to educate them. I believe in God, I believe the bible is His word, and all my posts are aligned with scripture. You, son, need to grow up. Get on your knees, off the bottle, and stop venturing into strong meat. You, like so many others, will choke on it. Just like you are doing now.

wow....after reading this...just wow. Messed up.

Radius · Apr 25, 2015

PennEd said:

you can add cursing to that list of sins he has just committed in this thread alone.

Skinski7 · Apr 25, 2015

Blain said:

Why did Jesus challenge the Pharisees?

Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Jesus was speaking of the issue of the heart.

People can outwardly appear to be righteous yet actually be inwardly wicked. This was a point Jesus made in the Sermon on the Mount...

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If one sins in their heart then they have sinned. Jesus was addressing the issue of the heart.

Can you see that Blain? I think you can.

Now why was Jesus pointing that out?

Look at this...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus specifically states that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus also specifically stated that the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was outward in appearance only.

Now look at this statement...

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Blain do you believe that is possible? Your posts deny the possibility of being inwardly cleansed because you speak evil of anyone who claims to have been cleansed. Yet the Bible teaches...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Can you testify of being redeemed from all iniquity and made pure?

Peter spoke of such...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The genuine new birth experience is a result of the sinner wholeheartedly yielding to God. We have plucked out the eye and cut off the hand and entered by the narrow gate which leads to life. We have lost our lives to this world and died to sin and have subsequently been railed up to newness of life by the Spirit of God.

Yet you speak evil of us who claim such a thing.

Who was Peter speaking of Blain? Ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Who was Peter speaking to Blain?

Paul wrote...

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in who Blain?

Do you walk after the Spirit?

There is no condemnation upon those who have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in them Blain.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Walking after the Spirit sets us free from the law of sin and death. Walking after the Spirit purifies out souls whereby we can love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Do you love your brother with a pure heart Blain?

Is your heart pure Blain?

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

None of this is rocket science.

So what of 1John 1:8. Well read it in context and stop isolating and snipping it in order to force a dogmatic view upon it.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Is there any darkness in God? Any darkness at all?

Is there any darkness in Jesus Christ? Any darkness at all?

Are you in Jesus Christ with darkness Blain?

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Those whom "walk" in darkness and claim fellowship with Christ are liars and do not know the truth. Do you "walk" in darkness or the light Blain? What is walking ?

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from how much sin Blain?

If we are cleansed of all sin and then we willfully sin then what happens?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
...
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Willful sin negates the cleansing Blain. The Bible is very clear on that matter.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 1:8-10 is about coming clean with God when approaching God seeking reconciliation and a cleansing from ALL sin Blain.

That is the context.

People like you snip a single verse from John and then isolate it. You deceitfully twist the Bible in an attempt to prove a dogmatic view.

John is not going to claim in one place that everyone still sins and that those who deny it are liars, and then claim in another place that those who are born of God do not sin.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The children of God are manifest to the world by their deeds done in righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

How much clearer could it be?

The children of God are MANIFEST because they DO righteousness. The children of the devil are MANIFEST because they do not righteousness.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Have the works of the devil been destroyed in your life Blain?

Or are you going to cling to 1Joh 1:8 as a proof text and use it as evidence that the works of the devil cannot be destroyed in your life?

The choice is yours.

Am I casting pearls to swine? I hope I am not.

GoodGnus · Apr 25, 2015

I am not OSAS, but I do believe God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Jason does make a good point about our relationship to sin after we are saved by God's grace. I would suggest that he should have said "there are those who believe..." rather than painting all of OSAS with a broad brush.

I find broad statements on both sides of the OSAS aisle objectionable. And in case anyone is wondering, I dont have a position on OSAS. But after I have been there 10,000 years, I might get around to asking my Savior about it.

Dont be surprised if I dont respond to any vitriolic replies to my post no matter how much scripture is quoted in them.

Skinski7 · Apr 25, 2015

Blain said:

OSAS is a symptom of a false salvation message.

In fact the entire OSAS versus non-OSAS is a ruse. Both sides tend to hold to a false view of salvation. It is what we can call an oppositions of science falsely so called. False dialectic paradigm are one of the most effective means to deceive people by for it limits peoples thinking within set limits when the real truth is actually outside of those limits.

If one understands that salvation is a literal manifest state where we are walking with God with a pure heart and therefore doing the will of God then any notion of OSAS evaporates instantly. Salvation is FROM sin, not IN it.

Anyone whom engages in willful sin (ie. rebellion) is a servant of sin. They are in bondage to evil. Salvation involves being set free from that state.

If one is set free from the service of sin and then one is to go an serve it once again then obviously they have returned to the prison cell. OSAS is nonsense and is not even worth contending against. Instead it is prudent to contend for genuine salvation.

GoodGnus · Apr 25, 2015

I don't know a lot about the osas group, I know it's a doctrine that believes once you are saved you cannot be unsaved but as for what kind of views and beliefs I figured it was like a lot of groups with the same doctrine- their beliefs and views vary

I am not OSAS, but I do believe God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Jason does make a good point about our relationship to sin after we are saved by God's grace. I would suggest that he should have said "there are those who believe..." rather than painting all of OSAS with a broad brush.

I find broad statements on both sides of the OSAS aisle objectionable. And in case anyone is wondering, I dont have a position on OSAS. But after I have been there 10,000 years, I might get around to asking my Savior about it.

Dont be surprised if I dont respond to any vitriolic replies to my post no matter how much scripture is quoted in them.

Ok I have one scripture for the sinless

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