Catholics

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J

JesusIsAll

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#21
I do not think most would say that. I would not, I am profoundly aware of me not being good enough!
I've personally heard that from the most vehement Catholics, that my faith is flawed, that I'm out of communion, been called a heretic, many, many times, yes, damned. Given your history of Satanic mayhem, Bible burning and promulgation of fables, in very God's name, this is as offensive as hell. It is idiocy, to tell anybody the faith of the Bible, the whole gospel of Jesus Christ and the apostles, is not enough.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#22
I think it the duty of every Christian to evangelize to a Catholic while they still have time to find their way to Christ.
Perhaps you can explain to me? Why it is that 10000 Protestant denominations at least believe in mutually exclusive things on every material aspect of doctrine, you name it , they disagree with each other, on justification, sacraments, liturgy, predestination , Eucharist , baptism... The list is endless.

So please tell me which 1 Protestant denomination got it right and which are the 9999 false teachers and doctrines?
Which is the only one I should listen to? Or is there one?
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
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#23
The question is, from what vantage? Hanging with the rich man? But wow! A thread titled Catholics. Now it's dropping down into the mainstream list. Anyway, being Friday, you Papists got any mackerel snapping tips?
Valid point and it crossed my mind as well but I know mikeuk is right in that most Catholics would not say such a thing so I wanted to remain respectful.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Catholics are not saved, but my heart breaks for them because they are indeed sidetracked from God's full glory in Jesus Christ and they are severely lacking in being taught grace.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#24
I've personally heard that from the most vehement Catholics, that my faith is flawed, that I'm out of communion, been called a heretic, many, many times, yes, damned. Given your history of Satanic mayhem, Bible burning and promulgation of fables, in very God's name, this is as offensive as hell. It is idiocy, to tell anybody the faith of the Bible, the whole gospel of Jesus Christ and the apostles, is not enough.
Unlike Protestants catholics are unlikely to venture opinions unless you ask, and unlikely even then, given hostility, and indeed they will point at what they think is right and wrong doctrine, and even some times heresy, take Modalism of Pentecostals declared as such in the early church.

But the phrase used was " good enough" , I would not say it, and I do not know any that would. None of us are good enough.
 
Feb 1, 2015
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#25
My brother converted to the RCC because of his marriage, sigh. Please pray for him.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#26
Valid point and it crossed my mind as well but I know mikeuk is right in that most Catholics would not say such a thing so I wanted to remain respectful.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Catholics are not saved, but my heart breaks for them because they are indeed sidetracked from God's full glory in Jesus Christ and they are severely lacking in being taught grace.
How can you say that Utah? I just pulled up at least 10 parts of the catechism that say again again " saved by grace" read the first I quoted. That is what we are taught. most know so.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#27
Valid point and it crossed my mind as well but I know mikeuk is right in that most Catholics would not say such a thing so I wanted to remain respectful.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Catholics are not saved, but my heart breaks for them because they are indeed sidetracked from God's full glory in Jesus Christ and they are severely lacking in being taught grace.
It only remains respectful, of those who are steeped in it, until the real issues are brought to the table, as we're heretics, in the Catechism. Catholicism only later redacted we're damned, to being flawed, as if unfortunate, out of communion beggars at God's table, but who can be saved. One can only suppose we'll be the golden street sweepers in the kingdom of heaven.

As to who is saved, this is God's and God's alone, Who can divide the hearts of man. But the serious, legitimate question is how the Holy Spirit can be failing to lead many people, of any cult, into truth? I've seen many testimonies of those who, upon actually learning from the word of God in the Bible, could not remain Catholic, and, being able to learn from the word of God proof of having the Holy Spirit, spiritual discernment. There was one young man, from many years ago, that went from lifelong Catholic, of a Catholic family, to a Baptist, gave me this little book by a Baptist, was actually quite the sound, Spirit-filled theologian, too.

There is grave reason to raise a big red flag, and some people had better carefully consider whether things of the Spirit and the whole truth of scripture are important.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#28
How can you say that Utah? I just pulled up at least 10 parts of the catechism that say again again " saved by grace" read the first I quoted. That is what we are taught. most know so.
The devil comes as an angel of light. Come off it. The devil came with truth in the Garden, then mixed in the lie. This is the Catechism, a quilt of truth and lies. The Pope wouldn't be so stupid to think they'll be any ring kissing, if he comes with horns and a pitchfork. This is the same of ALL spiritual deceivers.
 

Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
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#29
How can you say that Utah? I just pulled up at least 10 parts of the catechism that say again again " saved by grace" read the first I quoted. That is what we are taught. most know so.
Mike, please know that what I share is with a loving heart and not an attacking spirit.

When I say that I have met thousands of former Catholics who have nothing but disdain for the Catholic church and/or for God Himself, I seriously mean that -- thousands. I have asked them why they feel that way and they become quite emotional in that they're are all tired of being beaten down by the faith.

I've heard the term, overdosed on Catholicism time and again. A serious lack of love from priests and other church leaders, too much talk in mass of guilt, perdition and damnation ad nauseam rather than mercy and grace, love and rejoicing, peace and eternal life. Business as usual in a void, spiritless manner rather than establishing and building a relationship with God in Jesus Christ.

I work in hospice and work with Catholic patients all the time and I see this from them over and over and over. Little hope, little peace, and sometimes complete and total despair due to the teachings of the Catholic church. I wish is wasn't so. But then I have opportunities to discuss things with folks like you and it gives me hope.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#30
Don' t worry on my account!
I went through the decidedly unbiblical rituals like " altar calls " and " asking Jesus into your life" of a variety of congregations, some of whom believed in " fast food " salvation get rich quick scheme called OSAS,
Well if you did it a number of times it shows how little it meant to you. The Holy Spirit had not worked in your heart. And that is revealed by your behaviour on this site.

If you think OSAS is fast food salvation it shows how little you knew about it.

It is true that our salvation is determined the moment that we put our lives in the hands of the Saviour, because from then on by His favour our salvation becomes His responsibility. But the process is lifelong and only completed when we meet Him in glory.

So according to you I already am.
Nope. You need Christ as your personal Saviour to be saved.

Then I realised that none of those things are biblical, and it is even less historical, so not early church.
Which demonstrates how little you know the Scriptures.

That the new testament did not drop out of the sky, it was decided by catholic councils,
It was on the whole established by mid 2nd century at the latest. Most churches had the four Gospels, Acts, the letters of Paul, Peter, John and Jude and Revelation. They acknowledged them as Scripture. The other peripheral books took longer in some churches because they did not know of them. All the Council did was test which were Apostolic and confirm the use of three hundred years and more. So you are not really very knowledgeable about what REALLY happened

that the early church was handed by tradition, I found clauses that I. Had not seen that said" the pillar of truth was the church" , which rules out all the modern denominations.
The tradition that the early church received FROM THE APOSTLES was finally recorded in the Gospels. The church which was the pillar of truth was the Apostolic church overseen by the Apostles. So it was the Scriptures that became the pillar of truth because they contained the tradition of the Apostolic church as the later church recognised when they measured all teaching by the New Testament.

I discovered the early fathers believed in sacraments, liturgy , real presence,
Well I believe in 'the sacrament' of the Lord's supper. It is a sacred occasion. And so do all here. So it is not the prerogative of any church. We also believe that every Christian should be baptised. What was NOT taught by the early fathers was the other so-called sacraments invented by the Roman Catholic church.

ALL churches have a liturgy. They conduct their services in a certain way. What they do not usually do is repeat words parrot fashion that have lost their meaning.

The real presence is not Scriptural and was never taught by the early fathers. It is Roman Catholic blasphemy to make God into a piece of bread.

that bishops were needed for valid sacraments and so on, and they were saying this only one generation after the apostles.
Not 'they'. Just Ignatius in his excited state on his way to martyrdom in Rome. He was simply trying to keep his church together now they had lost him. The New Testament has nothing to say on the subject. Each church had a number of overseers (bishops).

At which point you realise the evangelists have got it wrong. And any way, if individual interpretation worked, why do Protestants post reformation diverge on every material point of doctrine?
They don't. They only differ on less important points.

I concluded as countless Protestant ministers and theologians have done, that to study history is to cease to be Protestant. but nobody mentions the traffic in that direction!
LOL only because you studied history as written by Rome. 'Countless' is an exaggeration (something you are good at). Far more have moved the other way.
 

Pemican

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2014
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#31
The criterion for salvation is whether a person has believed in Christ
for his salvation or not. What one believes about Christ is the issue.
Some people believe in the person and work of Christ, but unfortunately most do not.

For example some people believe in their own works for salvation, not in Christ.
Some people believe in rituals for salvation, not in Christ.
Some people believe in Mary for salvation, not in Christ.
Some people believe in their own goodness for salvation, not in Christ.

Some Catholics are saved some are not. The same could be said for
people who call themselves Baptists or Methodists etc.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#32
A serious lack of love from priests and other church leaders, too much talk in mass of guilt, perdition and damnation ad nauseam rather than mercy and grace, love and rejoicing, peace and eternal life.
Utah, you are a pleasure to talk to , and I don't judge anybody. I made my decisions on information to hand and prayer, and it feels right to me, unlike other places, I know what I think and why, but I am not pushing anyone there.

But on your point, the hellfire damnation preachers were a fact of the Bible Belt as well, so not just RCC, and in all my time at least in perhaps 100? Different churches ( I go to mass whilst travelling), I have not heard that kind of preaching.

One of the worrying bits of theology of some Christian congregations is that somehow misfortune is earned, where at least in RCC suffering is seen as something out of which grace can flow.

But also, my mentality suits quiet lone mediation, me and Christ, and I actually like ritual, Gregorian chant and so on, so the atmosphere of a RCC suits me, the 15 minutes before mass. Whilst I admired the warmth of evangelist fellowship, it does not suit me for prayer, even less so rock bands ! In another time, I might have become a discalced Carmelite!
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#33
How can you say that Utah? I just pulled up at least 10 parts of the catechism that say again again " saved by grace" read the first I quoted. That is what we are taught. most know so.
but it is not enough to spout words. The truth has to be experienced. You have said that you are trusting in your baptism for salvation. It is clear that you do not understand the grace (unmerited love and favour) of God specifically active in your life. You think that God's grace is applied to you through the church and its ordinances. That is not true grace. It is myth.
 
Dec 26, 2014
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#34
the Jewish leaders taught Yahweh's WORD, 10 billion times more accurately than leaders in the rcc,
but
Jesus told them 'sorry'....

the mixture in the rcc of a lot that is wrong and bad, the source being wicked to start with, is the error of the rcc. they don't teach, preach, practice or love the Truth, any more than the Jewish leaders did who sought to crucify and who crucified the MESSIAH JESUS.

so what if most all of the rest of the world ALSO is in error and lost,

that won't help anyone in the rcc or in the world who remains lost - they all are resurrected to shame and judgment.

out of the whole world, and out of the rcc, a few will be saved. it is written in Yahweh's WORD.

the rcc is already judged by Yahweh's WORD, but only the few who will be saved ever know it.
the rest of the world is already judged by Yahweh's WORD, but only the few who will be saved ever know it.
until judgment day that is.


Yahweh's WORD is clear about this. the road is narrow that leads to life. few are there who find it. according to Yahweh's Written WORD, the rest of the world(everyone not in the remnant, rcc included, protestants and other religions also in their portions as Yahweh knows) worships(serves) demons, and refuses to repent of serving demons ; they REFUSE LIFE ....
 
M

mikeuk

Guest
#35
As Thomist said.... Speak of the devil and....

the Jewish leaders taught Yahweh's WORD, 10 billion times more accurately than leaders in the rcc,
but
Jesus told them 'sorry'....

the mixture in the rcc of a lot that is wrong and bad, the source being wicked to start with, is the error of the rcc. they don't teach, preach, practice or love the Truth, any more than the Jewish leaders did who sought to crucify and who crucified the MESSIAH JESUS.

so what if most all of the rest of the world ALSO is in error and lost,

that won't help anyone in the rcc or in the world who remains lost - they all are resurrected to shame and judgment.

out of the whole world, and out of the rcc, a few will be saved. it is written in Yahweh's WORD.

the rcc is already judged by Yahweh's WORD, but only the few who will be saved ever know it.
the rest of the world is already judged by Yahweh's WORD, but only the few who will be saved ever know it.
until judgment day that is.


Yahweh's WORD is clear about this. the road is narrow that leads to life. few are there who find it. according to Yahweh's Written WORD, the rest of the world(everyone not in the remnant, rcc included, protestants and other religions also in their portions as Yahweh knows) worships(serves) demons, and refuses to repent of serving demons ; they REFUSE LIFE ....
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#36
Here is what I know about the Catholic religion, I know it is more about rules regulations and traditions than an actual relationship with God I know that Mary seems to be just as important if not more by some than Jesus himself I know they baptize babies I know they pray to mary a regular human who had a sinful nature as well I believe she is supposed to interceded their prayer to God and I have met some who very strict and condemning but other than this I don't know a lot about Catholism.

But like I said the Catholic lady I am talking to showed more Christianity than she did Catholic, the relationship with God she has is so deep and intimate the knowledge of his nature and heart she had was astounding.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#37
Here is what I know about the Catholic religion, I know it is more about rules regulations and traditions than an actual relationship with God I know that Mary seems to be just as important if not more by some than Jesus himself I know they baptize babies I know they pray to mary a regular human who had a sinful nature as well I believe she is supposed to interceded their prayer to God and I have met some who very strict and condemning but other than this I don't know a lot about Catholism.

But like I said the Catholic lady I am talking to showed more Christianity than she did Catholic, the relationship with God she has is so deep and intimate the knowledge of his nature and heart she had was astounding.

Had you ever considered that the Protestant view of catholics is shaped by hearsay in places like this, by ranters such as Jeff, and that in that discussion the Protestants focus far more on discussion Mary , than the catholics do in their faith?

All I can do is repeat to show focus, that the mass is wall to wall scripture connected, and 3 new readings every day, that God , Jesus, Lamb, Spirit must get 100 mentions or more.
That the only two references to Mary are in the context of Mary and saints " pray for us" and the only mention of pope is " we pray for him" The whole thing is Focussed on the Eucharist, with references into the marriage supper of the lamb.

Which gives an idea of focus!
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#38
Had you ever considered that the Protestant view of catholics is shaped by hearsay in places like this, by ranters such as Jeff, and that in that discussion the Protestants focus far more on discussion Mary , than the catholics do in their faith?

All I can do is repeat to show focus, that the mass is wall to wall scripture connected, and 3 new readings every day, that God , Jesus, Lamb, Spirit must get 100 mentions or more.
That the only two references to Mary are in the context of Mary and saints " pray for us" and the only mention of pope is " we pray for him" The whole thing is Focussed on the Eucharist, with references into the marriage supper of the lamb.

Which gives an idea of focus!
I am not speaking from others say or believe I am speaking from my personal experience from Catholics. I can hear what others say and believe about ppl or about a religion but until I find out for myself i won't believe them
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#39
Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Is the new heart just as deceitful as the old heart?

How do we figure this?

And would it be considered cool then to bid another God speed that comes with another doctrine?

Only because if you do then you are a partaker of their evil deeds just in doing that.


The context was ...Blain was saying God looks at the heart when receiving a person to Himself. No, we're only accepted through the righteousness of Christ...apart of which our heart is desparately wicked. Even our new heart was given on that basis.
 
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mikeuk

Guest
#40
I am not speaking from others say or believe I am speaking from my personal experience from Catholics. I can hear what others say and believe about ppl or about a religion but until I find out for myself i won't believe them
One place to see catholic thinking is in the works of saints. The hunger and thirst for Jesus in such as Margaret Mary read like a love story. But if you gather together their spiritual works, such as " dialogue, Catherine of Siena - interior castles, Teresa of Avila - dark night of the soul, John of the Cross, to even recent works such as those of Diary, Sister Faustina even such as Edith Stein, from memory you will struggle to find references to Mary at all.

.Not that we do not honour and love her deeply, we do, but she is not the centre of what we believe, she points towards Jesus, she does not usurp him.
 
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