Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[Jackson123]

Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrneans, a bishop and student only one generation on from the apostles disagrees, written more or less at the turn of the first century..

He says that a bishop or those he empowers is needed to be a valid eucharist. Indeed he notes the real presence, and if it were not real presence why indeed would there be a question over what was "valid". If it were just bread and wine, validity would not be an issue.

So that is what the early church did and thought no doubt because that is what was passed on to them. And at that point the faith was indeed passed on by word of mouth, and letter as Paul says. Tradition . Handing down. The new testament as you have it, indeed even heretical canons like Marcions, which is the first recorded canon of scripture, were still a thing of the future.

So why do you disregard the teaching of the early church. Not what scripture says, but what the descendants of the apostles were taught that it means?


The pillar and foundation of truth is the church! the bible says so! and in ignatius you see the church speaking.

Jesus said by the fruit you know the tree.

Not by the title. One may ordain as a bishop, in the eyes of man he is bishop, but it may not in the eyes of God.

That is why Jesus said in the last judgement will be a lot surprise, a lot people think they go to heaven and is not.


By this fact why Jesus require a bishop to perform communion?

Jesus warn a lot of false prophet, a lot of false christian, a lot of false teacher or to me mean a lot of false bishop.

Don't you know some big bishop/Pope has a mistress? Is he real Peter successor?

Seem to me is not in the bible and it is man made doctrine.

 

[mwc68]

Jesus said by the fruit you know the tree.

Not by the title. One may ordain as a bishop, in the eyes of man he is bishop, but it may not in the eyes of God.

That is why Jesus said in the last judgement will be a lot surprise, a lot people think they go to heaven and is not.


By this fact why Jesus require a bishop to perform communion?

Jesus warn a lot of false prophet, a lot of false christian, a lot of false teacher or to me mean a lot of false bishop.

Don't you know some big bishop/Pope has a mistress? Is he real Peter successor?

Seem to me is not in the bible and it is man made doctrine.

1 Tim 3 is where St. Paul writes about bishops and deacons

 

[Jackson123]

1 Tim 3 is where St. Paul writes about bishops and deacons

[h=1]1 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)[/h]3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

King James Version (KJV)by Public Domain


It doesn't say communion require bishop

 

[valiant]

1 Tim 3 is where St. Paul writes about bishops and deacons

true but not bishops in the Roman Catholic sense. they were joint overseers within a church

 

[mwc68]

true but not bishops in the Roman Catholic sense. they were joint overseers within a church

That's what they are now, overseers in their Diocese

 

[valiant]

That's what they are now, overseers in their Diocese

the early church knew nothing of diocese. Each church was independent. Sadly man's desire for pre-eminence put an end to that. They are like Diotrophes who loved to have the pre-eminence.

 

[GoodGnus]

the early church knew nothing of diocese. Each church was independent. Sadly man's desire for pre-eminence put an end to that. They are like Diotrophes who loved to have the pre-eminence.

I am confused by your statement that churches were independent. The first church council that was held in Jerusalem (Acts 15) made a proclamation that was to apply to all believers.

 

[SAVAS]

you missed the bit out about praying to Mary because we believe that Jesus is to busy to hear us LOL

if i asked you to pray for me, would you decline an intercession? would you not pray for my wretched soul?! because i may respect your prayers (James 5:16).

do we put our all our trust in God, Jesus Christ? Yes, of course. do we believe in the prayers of righteous men? yes. when i see my neighbor i see Christ (well, that's the idea right? its hard out here for a sinner : ) especially one striving to be Christ like.

does death limit ones power in the Holy Spirit? in fact, we can safely say that a man of Christ who died is actually even more alive than we can ever imagine. living in complete oneness with Christ. I would appreciate intercession from that man or woman just like a worldly (as in here on earth soul and body) intercession from you to me.

 

[Jackson123]

if i asked you to pray for me, would you decline an intercession? would you not pray for my wretched soul?! because i may respect your prayers (James 5:16).

do we put our all our trust in God, Jesus Christ? Yes, of course. do we believe in the prayers of righteous men? yes. when i see my neighbor i see Christ (well, that's the idea right? its hard out here for a sinner : ) especially one striving to be Christ like.

does death limit ones power in the Holy Spirit? in fact, we can safely say that a man of Christ who died is actually even more alive than we can ever imagine. living in complete oneness with Christ. I would appreciate intercession from that man or woman just like a worldly (as in here on earth soul and body) intercession from you to me.

do you ever make conversation with Mary?

Do the dead in Christ able to make conversation with the living?

My Mom and Dad was with the Lord. They are Christian, and I never talk to them since they dead.

Let say because they are not go to heaven.

How about apostle Paul, Do you ever talk to him?

You said he is more a live, Why don't you ask him to preach in your church?

 

[valiant]

I am confused by your statement that churches were independent. The first church council that was held in Jerusalem (Acts 15) made a proclamation that was to apply to all believers.

It was not a church council. Paul and Barnabas had come to Jerusalem to defend the right of Gentiles not to be circumcised before the Apostles and elders of the Jerusalem church. Only the Jerusalem church were present including the Apostles. They agreed on the basis of Scripture that circumcision was not required, and that Gentiles were not bound by Jewish ritual law. The only thing they asked was that Gentiles Christians would consider Jewish feelings so that they could eat together.

It was not seen as binding on the Gentile Christians, and soon got dropped. We don't find it mentioned later. It was certainly not a council of a number of churches. And it had no final authority. It was Paul's attempt agreed to by the Apostles to maintain unity between Jewish and Gentile Christians.

 

[valiant]

if i asked you to pray for me, would you decline an intercession? would you not pray for my wretched soul?! because i may respect your prayers (James 5:16).

do we put our all our trust in God, Jesus Christ? Yes, of course. do we believe in the prayers of righteous men? yes. when i see my neighbor i see Christ (well, that's the idea right? its hard out here for a sinner : ) especially one striving to be Christ like.

does death limit ones power in the Holy Spirit? in fact, we can safely say that a man of Christ who died is actually even more alive than we can ever imagine. living in complete oneness with Christ. I would appreciate intercession from that man or woman just like a worldly (as in here on earth soul and body) intercession from you to me.

There is not a single Scriptural ground for thinking that the dead are aware of us and can hear us. They are busy worshiping God. The picture of the angelic 'elders' offering our prayers like incense before God is probably not intended to be taken llterally but simply as evidence that our prayers reach God. However even if we take it literally it does not indicate that they pray for us, but rather that they offer our prayers as incense in God's presence.

It is Jesus Who ever lives to make intercession for us, and our prayers are made effective by the contribution of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

There is not a single Scriptural ground for thinking that the dead are aware of us and can hear us. They are busy worshiping God. The picture of the angelic 'elders' offering our prayers like incense before God is probably not intended to be taken llterally but simply as evidence that our prayers reach God. However even if we take it literally it does not indicate that they pray for us, but rather that they offer our prayers as incense in God's presence.

It is Jesus Who ever lives to make intercession for us, and our prayers are made effective by the contribution of the Holy Spirit.

THE dead don't worship God.. they are in Hades, in their place... these who died dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually dead and physically dead... on the other hand...-----> the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob , He is not the God of the dead , but of the Living... and those who have physically died in Christ, are in Heaven with Him today.. to be absent from the Body is to be Present with the LORD----------->

Wherefore seeing we also are Compassed about with so Great a Cloud of Witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1

Interceding is done by Christ Himself, nobody else, He intercedes for the Saints, on this earth, the Will of God for them. He is at the Right Hand of the Father, and Eternal Priesthood, He liveth forever, never having to sleep .. etc..

God is not the God of the 'dead'. but of the Living... indeed

 

[KenAllan]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore comfort one another with these words.

You said Savas, "we can safely say that a man of Christ who died is actually even more alive than we can ever imagine. living in complete oneness with Christ."

Its very clear to me Savas you really have not read or studied the Scriptures. Those who have died have fallen asleep and are in the grave sleeping. Read verse 16 where the dead will rise up to meet the Lord in the air!

Why do you Catholics believe its alright for you to make up anything you want to be the Truth? Why are you teaching the opposite of what the Holy Spirit says? Could it be your Pride that compels you to lie? Or could it be because you are a natural man and not a True Christian?

1 Corinthians 2:10-14
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Spirit teaches us everything! But you a natural man cannot receive the teachings of the Spirit because they are foolishness to you and to all the Catholics in the World!

We have the Truth from God because we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches us everything! Can you Catholics say the same thing? No you cannot because no Catholics has ever received the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Death does limit our power in the Holy Spirit because we are ASLEEP in the grave, not in Heaven like the Catholics teach!

Its a shame Savas that you WILL miss out on the second coming of our Lord Jesus who will catch us up in the air with Him! We will be with Him FOREVER! Unfortunately Savas you will not be with us. You will be left below to wait for the Judgement day before the Great White Throne judgement.

 

[notuptome]

I am confused by your statement that churches were independent. The first church council that was held in Jerusalem (Acts 15) made a proclamation that was to apply to all believers.

James not Peter said that they should do what seems right to them only if it's not too much trouble don't eat blood or things strangled. That seem like a lot of liberty. Modern terms keep it clean and don't dishonor yourselves for the sake of the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[AngelFrog]

I presume this is the one last remaining thread opened for discussion about RC.
I wanted to respond to the remarks in that other thread by Mikeuk.


Re: Catholics

Originally Posted by AngelFrog

Well, let's see. Papal infallibility is a myth. If no other pope in the history of the RCC proved that one it was Jospeph Ratzinger.
Mariology is not scriptural. Purgatory is not scriptural and in fact marginalizes the death of Christ on the cross. The Rosary is not scriptural. Graven images are against scripture and one of the 10 commands of what not to do, while the RCC is full of such things.
Revering the dead, necromancy for all intents and purposes, is contrary to scripture. Revering the dead that are deified as saints, asking them to intercede with the Godhead on behalf of the believer, is not scriptural when the Bible tells us there is one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus. This would also revoke the primacy of the pope.

When Jesus referred to the Pharisees and Sadducee as vipers because of their rulership in the temple over the people and the path to God, how would one imagine he would approve the same heirarchal construct in the RCC.

When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he will build his church he wasn't talking about the construction of the Vatican and the RCC. The Vatican being constructed over the tombs of the dead pagans and it's bowels now filled with the corpses of dead popes, while the body parts of the dead later decreed "saints" by election of the RCC authority, are worshiped as relics.

Jesus was instead talking about the testimony of Peter and his delivering the good news of Christ unto the world. The church, contrary to what the RCC recognizes, is the body of the faithful in Christ in whom the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling. We are all saints in Christ Jesus.


As for what denomination is closest to that of the true teachings of Christ? As to a denominational alignment for the Christian, some say the Church of Christ. It holds strictly to the teachings of Christ in scripture.
I'm unaffiliated. The church of Christ for me is the body of faithful in Jesus. Who said, where two or three are gathered in my name there am I also.

Community world wide of the "Christian church" is insured in the billions of those faithful to Christ Jesus first.

Not to the church that presumes to be an entity that acts as emissary between the faithful and God. And who's appointed authorities claim to communicate changes in doctrine because God has a one on one with the pope. While priests are said to be the 'father' and who act as the representative of Jesus on earth . When Jesus told us call no man father but your Father in Heaven.

Those are just a few examples.

Mikeuk responded: I asked you a fair question, where is truth. You dont answer except for a rant. Sad.
​

Actually what is sad is that you ignore the truth I posted. The truth is the RCC is completely contrary to scripture and Christ's teachings.
That wasn't a rant. That was a point for point, though abbreviated, rebuttal of all that the RCC espouses as truth when it claims of itself to be the one and only true church of God. And as more than one pope has claimed, the only way to salvation.

Which is patently false given the RCC doctrine of Purgatory. Which not only marginalizes the message of the cross and Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world, but repeals God's grace.

Hebrews itself revokes the doctrine of Purgatory in its entirety.

[h=2]Hebrews 10:8-18[/h]“First he [Jesus] said, ‘Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them’ (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, ‘Here I am, I have come to do your will.’ He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
‘This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds:
‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.” [emphasis added]



Therefore, it is a false doctrine. And the RCC is a false church. It is a partriarchal dictatorship who's altar is mounted on the riches of proceeds taken from the dead conquered during the inquisition and the crusades. It is the antithesis of God's message.

The doctrine of Purgatory is repealed in its entirety by God's grace. And since the RCC teaches that virtually all Roman Catholics enter purgatory and for an indeterminate period of time, time which can be lessened by various methods afforded those here on earth on behalf of the suffering dead who's souls are being purified there, God's grace and all scripture that pertains to that speaks the truth in the word.

The RCC is false and the antithesis of true righteousness. And this isn't a rant. A rant would be afforded in the Catechism that seeks to convince believers in it that the church comes first before God. As if it is the vehicle for all things pertaining to God, Jesus , and Heaven.

 

[PeterJens]

Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrneans, a bishop and student only one generation on from the apostles disagrees, written more or less at the turn of the first century..

He says that a bishop or those he empowers is needed to be a valid eucharist.

Let me ask one basic point of Jesus and his life. Was he there to institute a set of ceremonies, of people dressed up, with roles and tasks, or to bring a people who love from the heart into the world. Communion is a sign of acceptance that our Lord had to die, to set us free, that without this declaration of eternal love, its overcoming power in the real of everyday life, it would never be enough.

The fact, and I mean fact, you and many many others think this is some mysterious miracle shows how lost you are in hypocracy. Spiritual reality is not based on who and how authoritatively they said anything but does it all hang together.

There is one question you need to answer, what is perfection, walking like Jesus? Now for some this is too far away from reality so you carry magic charms, actions, that make up the difference. The truth is we wake up every morning and cannot see the battle and problems have changed, so this cannot surely be we have arrived.

Let me suggest to you, that unless love is set free, allowed to rebuild you, that you open up, forgive your parents, the people you lock out from within, you have nothing, because this is what Jesus came to do. Now you can muck up how far it goes, but without the first steps you are dead, literally.

I talk to empty shells of people everyday, where whatever the mess is within, the face they show is not real. Some are so lost, they do not know what they like or what they appreciate. The idea that you can gain eternal life in this state is a joke. Now translate this into people who create a religious shell and nothing has changed.

So do I listen to brother and sisters in the Lord, all the time, but not if they cannot add to the reality of what we are and what eternity is all about. Do you think the issues are so difficult? Or is the reality it is easier to add simple ceremonies and symbols but actually deal with the hard issues of life. So adding ways for the church to have a role, not possible for a believer, is an easy gravy train for the professional religious man. But then there is no deception or twisted realities to defend the organisation you work for above the truth of reality.

 

[SAVAS]

do you ever make conversation with Mary?

no, i haven't.

Do the dead in Christ able to make conversation with the living?

I don't deny the possibility. or the accounts of it. Jesus has overcome death itself. Death is nothing. Why do you give it so much authority?

My Mom and Dad was with the Lord. They are Christian, and I never talk to them since they dead.

That's fine, its not a requirement.

Let say because they are not go to heaven.

I have no idea

How about apostle Paul, Do you ever talk to him?

No I don't, some do.

You said he is more a live, Why don't you ask him to preach in your church?

Wouldn't that be nice?


Its not like some audible voice I hear, I just have faith that a righteous ones prayers will reach Christ. its just different to me, here on earth we can ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to "pray for us", "pray for my family", "pray for my health" etc. But when they die that concept of prayer is now void.

The Body of Christ cant pray for each other because of death? seems very week.

I hold up the idea that if one has fought the good fight and is now in the presence of our Lord and God is more powerful than ever to pray for others.

 

[SAVAS]

There is not a single Scriptural ground for thinking that the dead are aware of us and can hear us. They are busy worshiping God. The picture of the angelic 'elders' offering our prayers like incense before God is probably not intended to be taken llterally but simply as evidence that our prayers reach God. However even if we take it literally it does not indicate that they pray for us, but rather that they offer our prayers as incense in God's presence.

It is Jesus Who ever lives to make intercession for us, and our prayers are made effective by the contribution of the Holy Spirit.

Valient, that's your interpretation or speculation on it. That's fine. No one is telling you that you have to do it to be a Christian. The experience of the body of Christ says otherwise.

 

[SAVAS]

Valient, that's your interpretation or speculation on it. That's fine. No one is telling you that you have to do it to be a Christian. The experience of the body of Christ says otherwise.

the experience of the Church in relation to intercession and its practice differs from yours is what i meant.

 

[KenAllan]

No where in the Scriptures does the Holy Spirit say a person has to be a Bishop or higher to do the Lord's Supper. In fact many Churches at the beginning had the Pastor doing the Lord's supper and in those Churches that did not have a Pastor the Deacons would do the Lord's Supper for the people.

So True Mikeuk the Church is the Pillar of the Truth. The Catholic Church gave up the right to be called the Pillar of Truth when it began teaching that Mary was sinless.

The Catholic Church gave up the right to be called the Pillar of Truth when it began teaching that Mary was Co-redemptrix.

The Catholic Church gave up the right to be called the Pillar of Truth when it began teaching that Mary was Queen of Heaven.

The Catholic Church gave up the right to be called the Pillar of Truth when it began teaching Mary was assumed into Heaven.

There are lots of false doctrines the Catholic Church teaches. They can no longer be called the Pillar of Truth.

Only the True Church is the Pillar of Truth. The True Church is a Spiritual Church not a physical Church on this World. The True Church has Jesus Christ as its cornerstone and its Foundation the True Christians in the World. Therefore its this Church that is the Pillar of the Truth because it supports the Truth from God.

A pillar holds up the Truth, it does not make up what it thinks or wants the Truth to be.

Unfortunately the Catholics have allowed lies from Satan to creep into their Church. The Catholic Church today is a pillar of the lies from Satan.

Savas i would pray for you, i would pray that God would open your eyes up to the Truth from Him. I would pray to God that He brings to you the Salvation you so desperately need. I would pray to God that he would send you True Christians to teach you the Gospel of Salvation. So yes Savas if you asked i would pray for you.

The dead cannot hear us Savas. They are asleep in the grave. I showed you the Scriptures that say the dead were asleep. But i guess you do not want the Truth from God that instead you want to listen to lies from Satan.

This is the main problem with the Catholics today. They want their ears tickled. They do not want the Truth in the Scriptures. Savas i can see all you want is to deceive people into following the Catholic Church instead of following God. You have no Truth in you Savas because i have seen where you have rejected the Truth from God to have your ears tickled by the Catholic Church.