Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"
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Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cleanse us on the inside, so the WASHING of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) is not water baptism. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done" but according to His mercy He saved us. Right after we read about water baptism in verses John 3:22-24, in verse 25, we read - An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. So baptism does not wash away sins literally, but ceremonially.
The Bible states otherwise. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?These Gentiles believed in Him, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 11:17, looking back to the event that took place in Acts 10, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." Also see Acts 3:19; 15:8,9.
It sure sounded like you were going in that direction with your reasoning.Here are some interesting statements from the LCMS website about water baptism: - Frequently Asked Questions | Doctrine - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
Yes, as Greek scholar Daniel Wallace said -Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a PICTURE; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - a symbol is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. Baptism is the PICTURE, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins are actually washed away.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (he has not been water baptized? NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?
So you connect LIVING WATER (John 4:10,14; 7:38) with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism? That's a start.
The multiple passages of scripture that I have shared with you have not been cherry picked, but the verses on baptism have.
This is what people do when they set out to prove that salvation is by "water and works." They isolate passages TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and do not harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion from the whole council of God on the subject.
I never said that baptism was just a nothing. It is a work of righteousness, but we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but by faith in Christ. Baptism is an important act of obedience that God expects us to obey, however, it's not that act of obedience that saves us but our faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47).
Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cleanse us on the inside, so the WASHING of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) is not water baptism. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done" but according to His mercy He saved us. Right after we read about water baptism in verses John 3:22-24, in verse 25, we read - An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. So baptism does not wash away sins literally, but ceremonially.
The Bible states otherwise. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?These Gentiles believed in Him, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 11:17, looking back to the event that took place in Acts 10, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." Also see Acts 3:19; 15:8,9.
It sure sounded like you were going in that direction with your reasoning.Here are some interesting statements from the LCMS website about water baptism: - Frequently Asked Questions | Doctrine - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
Yes, as Greek scholar Daniel Wallace said -Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a PICTURE; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - a symbol is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. Baptism is the PICTURE, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins are actually washed away.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (he has not been water baptized? NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?
So you connect LIVING WATER (John 4:10,14; 7:38) with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism? That's a start.
The multiple passages of scripture that I have shared with you have not been cherry picked, but the verses on baptism have.
This is what people do when they set out to prove that salvation is by "water and works." They isolate passages TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and do not harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion from the whole council of God on the subject.
I never said that baptism was just a nothing. It is a work of righteousness, but we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but by faith in Christ. Baptism is an important act of obedience that God expects us to obey, however, it's not that act of obedience that saves us but our faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47).
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Being Raised in the Lutheran Sect or division, baptized as an infant, confirmed as a teenager, SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD, Feb. 1994,------> came back testified of His Grace in Saving me.. total rejection of the Witness of Christ in my life.. INSTEAD.. in my face.. you were saved when you were an infant, sealed with the sign of the cross with water.. NOOOOOOO... TOLD them it had nothing to do with they did as far as 'religion'. today they still reject the Born Again Witness of Christ in my life.. they 'trashed' His Saving Grace, doesnt suprise me as their background is in pharmaceuticals and the use of Behavior control meds during Daniels 70th week for 'imaging'. will become the NORM.. their foundation is in the Works of the flesh.. holding out a different Jesus, yet whilst persecuting the children of Promise, those Born Genuinely of the Spirit.. a sword in my family, because of Christ, yep. just what He said would happen. indeed!
Plain ordinary H20 has no power to cleanse us on the inside, so the WASHING of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) is not water baptism. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done" but according to His mercy He saved us. Right after we read about water baptism in verses John 3:22-24, in verse 25, we read - An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. So baptism does not wash away sins literally, but ceremonially.
The Bible states otherwise. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?These Gentiles believed in Him, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 11:17, looking back to the event that took place in Acts 10, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." Also see Acts 3:19; 15:8,9.
It sure sounded like you were going in that direction with your reasoning.Here are some interesting statements from the LCMS website about water baptism: - Frequently Asked Questions | Doctrine - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
Yes, as Greek scholar Daniel Wallace said -Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a PICTURE; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - a symbol is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. Baptism is the PICTURE, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins are actually washed away.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (he has not been water baptized? NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?
So you connect LIVING WATER (John 4:10,14; 7:38) with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism? That's a start.
The multiple passages of scripture that I have shared with you have not been cherry picked, but the verses on baptism have.
This is what people do when they set out to prove that salvation is by "water and works." They isolate passages TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and do not harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion from the whole council of God on the subject.
I never said that baptism was just a nothing. It is a work of righteousness, but we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but by faith in Christ. Baptism is an important act of obedience that God expects us to obey, however, it's not that act of obedience that saves us but our faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47).
The Bible states otherwise. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. *What happened to baptism?These Gentiles believed in Him, received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 11:17, looking back to the event that took place in Acts 10, we read - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." Also see Acts 3:19; 15:8,9.
It sure sounded like you were going in that direction with your reasoning.Here are some interesting statements from the LCMS website about water baptism: - Frequently Asked Questions | Doctrine - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
Yes, as Greek scholar Daniel Wallace said -Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a PICTURE; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - a symbol is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. Baptism is the PICTURE, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins are actually washed away.
John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he (he has not been water baptized? NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?
So you connect LIVING WATER (John 4:10,14; 7:38) with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism? That's a start.
The multiple passages of scripture that I have shared with you have not been cherry picked, but the verses on baptism have.
This is what people do when they set out to prove that salvation is by "water and works." They isolate passages TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT and do not harmonize Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion from the whole council of God on the subject.
I never said that baptism was just a nothing. It is a work of righteousness, but we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done, but by faith in Christ. Baptism is an important act of obedience that God expects us to obey, however, it's not that act of obedience that saves us but our faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47).
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
All of them don't need to appear together to figure out what is necessary for salvation. Those who hold to the fourfold formula of "Faith + Repentance + Confession + Baptism" suppose that each passage which states what is needed for salvation leaves out certain necessary elements, and that we must pool all such statements together, if we wish to find out what God truly requires for salvation. However, this approach does not really accept any of the statements which God has made about salvation through belief/faith. Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins/heart purified by faith. No further requirements afterwards. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." See also Luke 24:47 and Acts 17:30. A few times both repent and belief/faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many, many verses which only mention belief/faith as the condition for salvation (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ. Two sides to the same experience. When only repentance is mentioned in receiving salvation, faith is implied or assumed. When only faith is mentioned in receiving salvation, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If you believe, then you already repented in the process of coming to faith in Christ and are saved. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. Confession is an expression of saving faith, not an additional requirement after faith to become saved. It's not believe today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. This is how we harmonize Scripture with Scripture.
All of them don't need to appear together to figure out what is necessary for salvation. Those who hold to the fourfold formula of "Faith + Repentance + Confession + Baptism" suppose that each passage which states what is needed for salvation leaves out certain necessary elements, and that we must pool all such statements together, if we wish to find out what God truly requires for salvation. However, this approach does not really accept any of the statements which God has made about salvation through belief/faith. Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins/heart purified by faith. No further requirements afterwards. The Bible sometimes only mentions repentance as a condition for salvation. One example of this would be Luke 13:3, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." See also Luke 24:47 and Acts 17:30. A few times both repent and belief/faith are mentioned in the same verse (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21). There are many, many verses which only mention belief/faith as the condition for salvation (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:5; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ. Two sides to the same experience. When only repentance is mentioned in receiving salvation, faith is implied or assumed. When only faith is mentioned in receiving salvation, repentance is implied or assumed. Where you have one you must have the other. If you believe, then you already repented in the process of coming to faith in Christ and are saved. Not so with baptism. You can repent and believe the gospel BUT NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. Confession is an expression of saving faith, not an additional requirement after faith to become saved. It's not believe today then finally confess next week and are finally saved next week. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. This is how we harmonize Scripture with Scripture.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
We obey God the Father and Jesus Christ (God the Son) when we choose to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. Choosing to believe that gospel is the act of obedience that saves. There is a difference between the act of obedience which saves us and multiple acts of obedience (works) which follow saving faith in Christ.
Are you implying that we are saved by works?
You don't want to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages with PRESCRIPTIVE passages. "Those who have His commands and keeps them" - DESCRIPTIVE of a born again believer. "Those who do not love Christ and will not obey His teaching" - DESCRIPTIVE of a lost unbeliever.
We love Him (demonstrative evidence) - we keep His commands (after we have been saved through faith) BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
We obey God the Father and Jesus Christ (God the Son) when we choose to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. Choosing to believe that gospel is the act of obedience that saves. There is a difference between the act of obedience which saves us and multiple acts of obedience (works) which follow saving faith in Christ.
Are you implying that we are saved by works?
You don't want to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages with PRESCRIPTIVE passages. "Those who have His commands and keeps them" - DESCRIPTIVE of a born again believer. "Those who do not love Christ and will not obey His teaching" - DESCRIPTIVE of a lost unbeliever.
We love Him (demonstrative evidence) - we keep His commands (after we have been saved through faith) BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Again where did I say that plain water in baptism that saves? Haven't I said that baptism is a picture of what IS TAKING place AS we are being baptized? It is and was a picture of us SUBMITTING to Jesus death. It is a picture of us going UNDER the SHED water of Jesus death.
Be very careful using Acts 10 to DISPROVE the need for baptism. Acts10 was a SIGN to the Jews that the gentiles would be grafted in without CIRCUMCISION. Remember they already knew the Mosaic law,under the old covenant NO GENTILE could be a partaker of the covenant WITHOUT CIRCUMCISION,which also included sacrifices and the washings. Once Peter saw and heard those things he knew what it meant. Remember Peter says this
Acts 10
Then Peter said, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” [SUP]48 [/SUP]So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Why would any one be able to stand in the way of them being baptized unless there IS something that stand in the way,which was CIRCUMCISION.
You can not find one place in the OT where anyone was saved WITHOUT obeying.
Where does scripture say that a little one CAN NOT BELIEVE?
Didn't Jesus say this
Mark 9
[SUP]42[/SUP]“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
Jesus is VERY clear that little ones can believe in Him.
The disagreement is NOT on the fact that it does happen the disagreement is on THE WHEN it happens.
I never said we are saved by our works. But you the ONLY place where you can find faith being PASSIVE is on HOW we are declared righteous. We are declared righteous BY FAITH and FAITH alone,but that faith IS NOT AND NEVER WILL be a PASSIVE FAITH. Only an active faith saves. Faith and works can only be separated so far and that is a VERY VERY narrow place. A faith that loves and obeys is what saves. No amount of head knowledge "faith" saves,it is not possible.
Again where did I say that plain water in baptism that saves? Haven't I said that baptism is a picture of what IS TAKING place AS we are being baptized? It is and was a picture of us SUBMITTING to Jesus death. It is a picture of us going UNDER the SHED water of Jesus death.
Be very careful using Acts 10 to DISPROVE the need for baptism. Acts10 was a SIGN to the Jews that the gentiles would be grafted in without CIRCUMCISION. Remember they already knew the Mosaic law,under the old covenant NO GENTILE could be a partaker of the covenant WITHOUT CIRCUMCISION,which also included sacrifices and the washings. Once Peter saw and heard those things he knew what it meant. Remember Peter says this
Acts 10
Then Peter said, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” [SUP]48 [/SUP]So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Why would any one be able to stand in the way of them being baptized unless there IS something that stand in the way,which was CIRCUMCISION.
Frequently Asked Questions | Doctrine - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
Q: Can you please clarify the Lutheran view of Baptism and its purpose? Does the child become a Christian when baptized?
A: Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone. The Bible tells us that such “faith comes by hearing” (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20). Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God’s Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person’s heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13). Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include “conversion” and “regeneration.” Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant. We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant’s faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15). The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God’s Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.
Lutherans do not believe that only those baptized as infants receive faith. Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthening faith in accordance with God's command and promise. Depending on the situation, therefore, Lutherans baptize people of all ages from infancy to adulthood.
The LCMS does not believe that Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. All true believers in the Old Testament era were saved without baptism. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of Baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God). Still, Baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has His precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere “ritual” or “symbol,” but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.
It sounds like the LCMS believes in baptizing infants, which is unscriptural. An infant is not old enough to repent and believe the gospel. One minute the LCMS church says that we are "saved by God’s grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone" and that we do not believe that "baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation" but then turns around and says that "baptism is a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins." Sounds like a mixed message to me.
You can not find one place in the OT where anyone was saved WITHOUT obeying.
Where does scripture say that a little one CAN NOT BELIEVE?
Didn't Jesus say this
Mark 9
[SUP]42[/SUP]“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
Jesus is VERY clear that little ones can believe in Him.
The disagreement is NOT on the fact that it does happen the disagreement is on THE WHEN it happens.
I never said we are saved by our works. But you the ONLY place where you can find faith being PASSIVE is on HOW we are declared righteous. We are declared righteous BY FAITH and FAITH alone,but that faith IS NOT AND NEVER WILL be a PASSIVE FAITH. Only an active faith saves. Faith and works can only be separated so far and that is a VERY VERY narrow place. A faith that loves and obeys is what saves. No amount of head knowledge "faith" saves,it is not possible.
B
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
I can see a believer who has grieved the Spirit through living in some form of sin not knowing for a time whether they are saved or not, but one who is not exhibiting works being called into question as to whether they are saved or not is a whole other matter? You have a church at Ephesus that was chided by the Lord to go back and do the first works because they had left their first love, but that had nothing to do with they were saved or not. He warned them that he would remove their candlestick in (Rev 2:5) if they did not repent and go back to their first love and do those works through a labor of love. Explain what an active living breathing faith looks like in the life of the believer that is filled with the Spirit?
If I have trusted Christ for the remission of my sins yet I become carnal through the flesh does that disqualify me from the salvation of God I received by grace through faith? Believers are rewarded for their works and if they have none then they will receive no reward. It does not mean that they are a tare (darnel) among the wheat but one who bore little fruit. There are some who start off strong and do much and later have been discouraged and go and do other things because they have left their first love. They need to be built up in their faith and in the love of God so they can turn back to their first love when God saved them by grace and flooded their soul with his love through the Spirit. Before we come to that place of writing someone off as 'they went out from us because they were not of us' make sure that you have done everything possible through the leading of the Spirit.
I can see a believer who has grieved the Spirit through living in some form of sin not knowing for a time whether they are saved or not, but one who is not exhibiting works being called into question as to whether they are saved or not is a whole other matter? You have a church at Ephesus that was chided by the Lord to go back and do the first works because they had left their first love, but that had nothing to do with they were saved or not. He warned them that he would remove their candlestick in (Rev 2:5) if they did not repent and go back to their first love and do those works through a labor of love. Explain what an active living breathing faith looks like in the life of the believer that is filled with the Spirit?
If I have trusted Christ for the remission of my sins yet I become carnal through the flesh does that disqualify me from the salvation of God I received by grace through faith? Believers are rewarded for their works and if they have none then they will receive no reward. It does not mean that they are a tare (darnel) among the wheat but one who bore little fruit. There are some who start off strong and do much and later have been discouraged and go and do other things because they have left their first love. They need to be built up in their faith and in the love of God so they can turn back to their first love when God saved them by grace and flooded their soul with his love through the Spirit. Before we come to that place of writing someone off as 'they went out from us because they were not of us' make sure that you have done everything possible through the leading of the Spirit.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Of course I never said otherwise,I believe all those things are SIGN POSTS of what is happening to ones FAITH. Faith is either growing or DYING. There is no IN BETWEEN. I do not believe that salvation can be lost,but faith itself can DIE and one when GOES INTO unbelief they CUT themselves off from salvation. No one will be saved in UNBELIEF.
How do those that say we go in and out of salvation deal with the church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians is the longest rebuke in the entire Bible,yet not once does Paul make the claim they are not saved. 4 times in the first 4 chapters Paul calls them BROTHERS AND SISTERS,while he is rebuking them. How can that be if they are NOT SAVED,how can Paul even call them brothers and sisters?
Of course I never said otherwise,I believe all those things are SIGN POSTS of what is happening to ones FAITH. Faith is either growing or DYING. There is no IN BETWEEN. I do not believe that salvation can be lost,but faith itself can DIE and one when GOES INTO unbelief they CUT themselves off from salvation. No one will be saved in UNBELIEF.
How do those that say we go in and out of salvation deal with the church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians is the longest rebuke in the entire Bible,yet not once does Paul make the claim they are not saved. 4 times in the first 4 chapters Paul calls them BROTHERS AND SISTERS,while he is rebuking them. How can that be if they are NOT SAVED,how can Paul even call them brothers and sisters?
B
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Explain how you understand the following passage in the context for which it is written... Is it by the same token of 'unbelief' that the disciples were not able to cure the man's son?
Mt 17:14-21
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
What about this passage concerning Thomas...
John 20:24-31
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Explain how you understand the following passage in the context for which it is written... Is it by the same token of 'unbelief' that the disciples were not able to cure the man's son?
Mt 17:14-21
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
What about this passage concerning Thomas...
John 20:24-31
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
There are different types of UNBELIEF. What was the disciples unbelief? Did they ever stop believing Jesus was the Messiah,the Son of the Living God? Or was that unbelief based on something else? Was Thomas's unbelief because he didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead or was it because he no longer believed Jesus is the Messiah? That is a HUGE distinction that MUST be made.
There are different types of UNBELIEF. What was the disciples unbelief? Did they ever stop believing Jesus was the Messiah,the Son of the Living God? Or was that unbelief based on something else? Was Thomas's unbelief because he didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead or was it because he no longer believed Jesus is the Messiah? That is a HUGE distinction that MUST be made.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Let's also take another example. If one does NOT believe in the virgin birth,BUT still believes that Jesus of Nazareth,is the Christ,the Son of God ,who came in the flesh,died on a cross and rose again on the third day is that person SAVED? They are in UNBELIEF on a point,but is that point salvic?
Let's also take another example. If one does NOT believe in the virgin birth,BUT still believes that Jesus of Nazareth,is the Christ,the Son of God ,who came in the flesh,died on a cross and rose again on the third day is that person SAVED? They are in UNBELIEF on a point,but is that point salvic?
E
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
No, You do not disagree with what I say, but what the word of God says.
1. Jesus said, IF I DO NOT WASH YOU
2. Jesus said whoever is cleansed has been cleansed FOREVER
3. HE cleanses her (the church) by the word (spiritual water)
4. Our spiritual circumcision is done by the hand of God through spirit baptism. The HS is the one who cleanses.
5. You were washed BY THE SPIRIT of our God
6. We were saved (past tense) by Gods mercy, not through any physical works of righteousness. By the washing and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
it is the work of God which washes us, not the physical act of man. thus you deny what God said
No. Thats your problem. Your saying we are only saved by a physical act. not me.
why? because your faith is in the physical act you perform and not God himself. but for some reason you can not see this.
for the same reason I go to church, give to the poor. study my word, disciple others, and do everything else God asked me to do. He said do it, I do not question why, I just do it.
but it no more saved me than any of those other acts of faith.
No, You do not disagree with what I say, but what the word of God says.
1. Jesus said, IF I DO NOT WASH YOU
2. Jesus said whoever is cleansed has been cleansed FOREVER
3. HE cleanses her (the church) by the word (spiritual water)
4. Our spiritual circumcision is done by the hand of God through spirit baptism. The HS is the one who cleanses.
5. You were washed BY THE SPIRIT of our God
6. We were saved (past tense) by Gods mercy, not through any physical works of righteousness. By the washing and renewal of the Holy Spirit.
it is the work of God which washes us, not the physical act of man. thus you deny what God said
No. Thats your problem. Your saying we are only saved by a physical act. not me.
why? because your faith is in the physical act you perform and not God himself. but for some reason you can not see this.
for the same reason I go to church, give to the poor. study my word, disciple others, and do everything else God asked me to do. He said do it, I do not question why, I just do it.
but it no more saved me than any of those other acts of faith.
B
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
Are you prepared to answer that question? This is my answer and God's knows what is in both of our hearts. If they believe that Christ did not come through a virgin birth then they do not believe the scriptures and the Christ they believe in is someone other than the incarnate Son of God. There would be leaven in their belief as to the Son of God sent by the Father and he would only be another man born of a woman. The virgin birth is vital to the salvation God has provided to sinful through his only begotten Son and to believe otherwise is to believe in another Christ.
Are you prepared to answer that question? This is my answer and God's knows what is in both of our hearts. If they believe that Christ did not come through a virgin birth then they do not believe the scriptures and the Christ they believe in is someone other than the incarnate Son of God. There would be leaven in their belief as to the Son of God sent by the Father and he would only be another man born of a woman. The virgin birth is vital to the salvation God has provided to sinful through his only begotten Son and to believe otherwise is to believe in another Christ.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
there is something deeper. it might not come out for days, weeks, months or even years if ever.
when someone denies christ, they won't readily admit it if they think they will lose someone's approval and
if that is important to them.
i.e. to them
it doesn't matter what GOD'S WORD says, what IS WRITTEN --- because (somewhere 'hidden'/'deeper' they have some kind of attachment or need other than TRUTH, instead of TRUTH, instead of GOD'S WORD)
IF GOD softens their heart, and shows mercy to them, they then accept JESUS and HIS WORD in TRUTH.
otherwise, whatever is 'hidden', they cannot overcome. whatever they love that has kept them from
accepting GOD'S WORD as TRUTH, they cannot escape. GOD'S MERCY is needed for everyone who is
saved --- no man is exempt.... sheer grace, sheer grace, even just to desire to seek HIM, to believe.
there is something deeper. it might not come out for days, weeks, months or even years if ever.
when someone denies christ, they won't readily admit it if they think they will lose someone's approval and
if that is important to them.
i.e. to them
it doesn't matter what GOD'S WORD says, what IS WRITTEN --- because (somewhere 'hidden'/'deeper' they have some kind of attachment or need other than TRUTH, instead of TRUTH, instead of GOD'S WORD)
IF GOD softens their heart, and shows mercy to them, they then accept JESUS and HIS WORD in TRUTH.
otherwise, whatever is 'hidden', they cannot overcome. whatever they love that has kept them from
accepting GOD'S WORD as TRUTH, they cannot escape. GOD'S MERCY is needed for everyone who is
saved --- no man is exempt.... sheer grace, sheer grace, even just to desire to seek HIM, to believe.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
You call baptism a picture but you are also saying that we are NOT saved UNTIL we are water baptized - "dipped or condemned." The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation (which I agree with) and that Mark 16:16 implies it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith (which I also agree with). Do you agree with your church of disagree?
Be careful that you don't disregard the fact that these Gentiles believed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism, which clearly shows they were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-46). Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. Acts 11:17 says they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and this was BEFORE baptism. What did Paul say in Acts 16:31? Get water baptized and you will be saved or believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved?
Was Abraham saved when he believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness or not until later, after he obeyed God many years later in Genesis 22? What did Paul say in Romans 4:2-3.
Children can believe but not infants. Show me just one example of "infant" baptism in the Bible.
Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. That's when salvation happens.
You are saying that we are saved by the work of baptism.
Amen! Faith IN CHRIST alone does not equate to faith and baptism.
Amen! Faith without works is dead.
Only saving faith is active. Faith is active BECAUSE we have been saved and not to become saved by works. Saved through faith and created in Christ Jesus FIRST then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. Faith in Christ is what saves and this kind of faith loves and obeys Christ. We don't want to put the cart before the horse.
We don't simply believe in our (head) that God raised Him from the dead, we believe in our HEART (Romans 10:9). That is a living trust and not merely head knowledge. It sounds to me like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too by implying, "we are saved not by works but we must do good works in order to become saved." That is the mixed message that I am hearing from you.
You call baptism a picture but you are also saying that we are NOT saved UNTIL we are water baptized - "dipped or condemned." The LCMS does not believe that baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation (which I agree with) and that Mark 16:16 implies it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith (which I also agree with). Do you agree with your church of disagree?
Be careful that you don't disregard the fact that these Gentiles believed and received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism, which clearly shows they were saved BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-46). Lost unbelievers do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. Acts 11:17 says they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and this was BEFORE baptism. What did Paul say in Acts 16:31? Get water baptized and you will be saved or believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved?
Was Abraham saved when he believed the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness or not until later, after he obeyed God many years later in Genesis 22? What did Paul say in Romans 4:2-3.
Children can believe but not infants. Show me just one example of "infant" baptism in the Bible.
Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. That's when salvation happens.
You are saying that we are saved by the work of baptism.
Amen! Faith IN CHRIST alone does not equate to faith and baptism.
Amen! Faith without works is dead.
Only saving faith is active. Faith is active BECAUSE we have been saved and not to become saved by works. Saved through faith and created in Christ Jesus FIRST then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root. Faith in Christ is what saves and this kind of faith loves and obeys Christ. We don't want to put the cart before the horse.
We don't simply believe in our (head) that God raised Him from the dead, we believe in our HEART (Romans 10:9). That is a living trust and not merely head knowledge. It sounds to me like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too by implying, "we are saved not by works but we must do good works in order to become saved." That is the mixed message that I am hearing from you.
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,
In and of themselves? So are we saved through faith IN CHRIST ALONE or by faith AND WORKS? You can't have it both ways.
Those works MUST be there in order to demonstrate that you have an acting breathing faith and are already saved or MUST be there in order to become saved? Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of a living faith, but they are not the essence of faith and they are not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine saving faith that is alive in Christ and is not dead is evidenced by good works. Agree?
In and of themselves? So are we saved through faith IN CHRIST ALONE or by faith AND WORKS? You can't have it both ways.
Those works MUST be there in order to demonstrate that you have an acting breathing faith and are already saved or MUST be there in order to become saved? Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of a living faith, but they are not the essence of faith and they are not the means of our salvation. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine saving faith that is alive in Christ and is not dead is evidenced by good works. Agree?