When does the rapture occur?

[VCO]

you have a weird way of interpreting other peoples words which may simply indicate that you have a fixed rigid mind unable to understand fluid spiritual concepts. Tell me how can you come alive with Christ and not be born from Above? How can you be raised with Him and seated at His right hand without being born from above? This is a spiritual transformation of the most emphatic kind. I now see why in America there are so many denominations. you have inflexible minds.




I find it difficult to take you seriously. That is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I have already been born from above, been made alive in Christ and have been raised with Him in heavenly places in Christ. I have thereby taken part in the first resurrection (HIS resurrection). The saints in glory are in THE SAME POSITION. The only difference is that their bodies are in the grave but their SOULS are living and reigning with Christ. WE ALL SHARE HIS HEAVENLY REIGN. Can you grasp that or shall I repeat it again. When I was born from above you were not even a twinkle in your mother's eye



These things have I said to you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life' (1 John 5.13). You are arguing at cross purposes.




you mean your totally distorted idea of my views. Are you deliberately misunderstanding or simply totally inflexible in your thinking?



yes this is describing the second resurrection, the physical resurrection of the dead.

compare John 5.25 with 28. One speaks of NOW IS (the new birth and first resurrection with Christ). The second speaks of the future resurrection of the body. Are you able to grasp the difference?

I am really not interested in extracts for the commentaries of popular preachers. Cite a genuinely scholarly commentary and I may read it.

Now wait a minute, I have been on these type of Bible discussion groups for YEARS, and you are the most difficult to understand person that I have met. Perhaps some of the problem is terminology differences, and some of it is the way Brits phrase things compared to the way we phrase things. However, I also know that we take HIS WORD much more literal than you ever do. For example when HE SAYS the 144,000 are all Jews, 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel, we take that absolutely literally, and YOU DO NOT. YOU SAID, "IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually." To me it sounds like You are claiming that the FIRST RESURRECTION is spiritually ONLY. To me that would be a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

I am no longer a spiritually immature Christian being tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine, therefore:
My understanding and the ONLY explanation that I will ever consider is that the First Resurrection is for Spiritually Born Again Believers only and is a Physical Resurrection of our bodies into an immortal form, to rejoin with our eternally alive spirits that have been in heaven, ever sense our deaths. The only exception to that rule, is those who are alive when HE calls out His Bride, will not die first, but still in the twinkling of an eye, will have their bodies changed into that immortal body.

1000 year later than the beheaded Saints or 1007 years later than the Bride of Christ literally, the Second Resurrection, is ONLY for the Unbelievers to face the JUDGEMENT OF CHRIST, and to be sentenced to eternity in the LAKE OF FIRE.

1 Corinthians 16:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

Ephesians 4:14-15 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

If that makes us "inflexible" and totally resistant to strange winds of Doctrine, then PRAISE THE LORD, WE ARE INFLEXIBLE.

 

[PlainWord]

WOW, you are throwing me one surprise after another. First let me ask you a serious question. Are all of these strange (to me) theological positions what an English BAPTIST Seminary taught you, or just a result of your own Bible Studies after you were ordained?

Where on earth do you get "temples" plural? The Scripture says the Temple of GOD singular. Their have only been Two of them so far, but the JEWS are in the process of preparing to build a THIRD TEMPLE over the Past several years. We believe that is a specific Prophecy about the Third Temple.

We believe the MARK 666 is only an Identification mark of individual men, similar to our Social Security Numbers, only it will be comprised of six digits-six digits-six digits. We believe the most likely form of the Mark will be an injectable ultra micro chip and they have them perfected now that are nearly as small as a grain of salt.

The last that I heard is these RFID micro chips are currently being tested in Florida on Alzheimer patients. To store personal I.D. info and medical records. The current embedded number on the chips is based on 15 digits. I suspect, that when they go to replacing all bank cards and credit cards with these chips world wide, it will necessitate a larger number, and final form of that identification number will be 18 digits (three groups of six digits).

As for the Souls under the alter, are you SURE you can read the King's English? It says specifically that they are the souls of those BEHEADED. I am sorry that mass beheadings do not fit your theology, but that is what makes it the GREAT TRIBULATION.




Does it bother me that you believe different than I do? NO! That is between you and GOD.
What bother's me is that you may have been teaching these things to young Christians who are tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine.

Someone has been watching too many Tim LaHaye movies.

 

[valiant]

Now wait a minute, I have been on these type of Bible discussion groups for YEARS, and you are the most difficult to understand person that I have met. Perhaps some of the problem is terminology differences, and some of it is the way Brits phrase things compared to the way we phrase things. However, I also know that we take HIS WORD much more literal than you ever do.

But the Book of Revelation claims to be a book of signs and symbols. 'And He sent and showed it by signs by His angel to His servant John'

For example when HE SAYS the 144,000 are all Jews, 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel, we take that absolutely literally, and YOU DO NOT.

So you think that GOD has cut off without mercy every member of the tribe of DAN? No I don't think God is like that. The very makeup of the twelve indicates its symbolic nature. It excludes the names of Dan and Ephraim because the names represented idolatry. The twelve by twelve indicates the totality of believers who ARE 'the twelve tribes' of Israel (James 1.1), They are the sealed of God, 'sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.' They are numbered because all God's true people are numbered.

Furthermore YOU SAID, "IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually." To me it sounds like You are claiming that the FIRST RESURRECTION is spiritually ONLY. To me that would be a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

Are you suggesting that our spiritual resurrection in Christ is not a REALITY? You say 'spiritual ONLY'. You refer to the most amazing thing that has happened to members of the human race, life from the dead, and you say 'only'. Are you sure that you have been really born from above? Compared with our spiritual rebirth and resurrection, which gives us eternal life in Christ and makes us fit to enter into God's presence when we die the physical resurrection is simply an add on.

You claim that you take things literally. But you don't. You only take literally what suits you. Rev 20.4-5 speaks of 'the SOULS' of those who have died in Christ. The soul is not the body. There is no mention of their bodies. If you take that literally it means that they have not yet risen physically. But that doesn't suit you, so you ignore it.

My soul has risen and lives and reigns with Christ NOW, (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1) and when I die my soul will live and reign with Christ in Heaven. And why? Because I have partaken in His resurrection, the FIRST resurrection. Don't you believe that? Why not? Do you treat the remarkable event that as happened to us as Christians based on His amazing resurrection so lightly?

Consider the resurrections:

1). Christ 'first rose from the dead' (Acts 26.23).
2). Saints rose with Him at His first resurrection (Matt 27.52-53).
3). All who are Christ's arose when they were baptised into Him (Romans 6.3-5; Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1; John 5.25).
4). The Souls of dead Christians live and reign with HIM in Heaven (Rev 20.4-5).
5). The two witnesses were raised from the dead (Rev 11).
6). The final physical resurrection of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous, takes place (John 5.28-29).

Which is the FIRST resurrection? Come on, take it literally? Is it the first or the sixth?

I am no longer a spiritually immature Christian being tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine, therefore:
My understanding and the ONLY explanation that I will ever consider is that the First Resurrection is for Spiritually Born Again Believers only and is a Physical Resurrection of our bodies into an immortal form, to rejoin with our eternally alive spirits that have been in heaven, ever sense our deaths.

I see. So anyone who does not agree with you (in spite of the evidence against your view) is spiritually immature? I will not use the word that comes to mind. I will leave you to sort it out with God. But at least you are honest. THE ONLY EXPLANATION THAT YOU WILL EVER CONSIDER. In other words you even admit that your mind is closed and you have blinkers on. And the evidence is against you. Apart from His own and those who rose with Him Jesus only ever spoke of ONE physical resurrection which would take place at one point in time and would include the righteous and the unrighteous (John 5.28-29). The question is, who should we believe? Christ or Darby and Scofield? I know Who I believe LITERALLY
Tell me, how are our eternally alive spirits (souls) in Heaven eternally alive, when once they were dead in trespasses and sins?
BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD through the almighty power of Christ's resurrection. Just read through Eph 1.19-2.6 and then deny it. That is the first resurrection. But as you say your eyes are tight shut.

The only exception to that rule, is those who are alive when HE calls out His Bride, will not die first, but still in the twinkling of an eye, will have their bodies changed into that immortal body.

And what about their souls previously? Were they not alive and reigning with Christ in Heaven? Or is Paul mistaken?

1000 year later than the beheaded Saints or 1007 years later than the Bride of Christ literally,

the Second Resurrection, is ONLY for the Unbelievers to face the JUDGEMENT OF CHRIST, and to be sentenced to eternity in the LAKE OF FIRE.

Show me any Scripture that speaks of two resurrections (apart from the resurrection of Christ and the general resurrection). You can't. For there isn't one. You would rather believe Scofield and Darby than the Scriptures and Jesus. Your whole faith is founded on a doubtful interpretation of a few verses in a book of signs, when in the Old Testament 'a thousand' invariably means a large indefined number. LOL and you tell me you take Scripture LITERALLY? The only thing you take literally are self-declared books of symbols.

1 Corinthians 16:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

That is what I am asking you to do.

Ephesians 4:14-15 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

I wonder who he had in mind here. Was it Darby? Or Newton? Or Scofield? Or maybe all three?

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

Notice the emphasis on TRUTH, not your cunningly devised fables.

If that makes us "inflexible" and totally resistant to strange winds of Doctrine, then PRAISE THE LORD, WE ARE INFLEXIBLE.

you said it. I simply agree with you.

 

[PlainWord]

Now wait a minute, I have been on these type of Bible discussion groups for YEARS, and you are the most difficult to understand person that I have met. Perhaps some of the problem is terminology differences, and some of it is the way Brits phrase things compared to the way we phrase things. However, I also know that we take HIS WORD much more literal than you ever do. For example when HE SAYS the 144,000 are all Jews, 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel, we take that absolutely literally, and YOU DO NOT. YOU SAID, "IT IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION as all who are in Christ are seen as having been raised with Him spiritually." To me it sounds like You are claiming that the FIRST RESURRECTION is spiritually ONLY. To me that would be a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

I am no longer a spiritually immature Christian being tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine, therefore:
My understanding and the ONLY explanation that I will ever consider is that the First Resurrection is for Spiritually Born Again Believers only and is a Physical Resurrection of our bodies into an immortal form, to rejoin with our eternally alive spirits that have been in heaven, ever sense our deaths. The only exception to that rule, is those who are alive when HE calls out His Bride, will not die first, but still in the twinkling of an eye, will have their bodies changed into that immortal body.

1000 year later than the beheaded Saints or 1007 years later than the Bride of Christ literally, the Second Resurrection, is ONLY for the Unbelievers to face the JUDGEMENT OF CHRIST, and to be sentenced to eternity in the LAKE OF FIRE.

1 Corinthians 16:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

Ephesians 4:14-15 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

If that makes us "inflexible" and totally resistant to strange winds of Doctrine, then PRAISE THE LORD, WE ARE INFLEXIBLE.

Can you explain this in light of your comments above:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

The Lord is back and there are still believers dying. How do you account for that?

Paul teaches that "death" is the last enemy Christ defeats.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Clearly, Christ does a little "reigning" first before He defeats "death" wouldn't you agree? Consider the three proclaiming angels:

Angel #1: “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Angel #2: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

Angel #3: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Are the above warnings of sequential events? Seems like it to me.

So Christ is on Mount Zion then we have:

Warning that God's Judgment has come which is followed by the announcement that Babylon has fallen. Hmm, I wonder if God's judgment caused Babylon to fall??? Then we have warning not to take the "mark" or worship the "Beast." Again:

1. Christ returns
2. Warning of pending judgment
3. Babylon falls
4. Don't take Mark of Beast or worship it's image
5. Saints will still die after this

Huh? How can Saints still die after Christ's Return?? Can you explain this???

 

[popeye]

Can you explain this in light of your comments above:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

The Lord is back and there are still believers dying. How do you account for that?

Paul teaches that "death" is the last enemy Christ defeats.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Clearly, Christ does a little "reigning" first before He defeats "death" wouldn't you agree? Consider the three proclaiming angels:

Angel #1: “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Angel #2: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

Angel #3: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Are the above warnings of sequential events? Seems like it to me.

So Christ is on Mount Zion then we have:

Warning that God's Judgment has come which is followed by the announcement that Babylon has fallen. Hmm, I wonder if God's judgment caused Babylon to fall??? Then we have warning not to take the "mark" or worship the "Beast." Again:

1. Christ returns
2. Warning of pending judgment
3. Babylon falls
4. Don't take Mark of Beast or worship it's image
5. Saints will still die after this

Huh? How can Saints still die after Christ's Return?? Can you explain this???

Can you explain this in light of your comments above:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

The Lord is back and there are still believers dying. How do you account for that?

Paul teaches that "death" is the last enemy Christ defeats.

This is the most rediculous interpretation I have ever,ever,witnessed.

 

[PlainWord]

A microchip is NOT a mark. A microchip isn't even visible once inserted. So much lack of understanding about the Beast and the mark.

Many people still think that the entire world will be required to take the "Mark of the Beast" or be killed, or at least not be able to buy or sell. That is not what the text says.

...that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

So, it is the image of the Beast that is to be worshiped or the image will cause the death of those who refuse.

What about the "mark?"

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It appears you can have the "mark" or the "name" or the "number of his name" to be able to buy or sell. Thus "receiving the mark" is not a requirement to buy or sell, it is merely one of three options. Therefore, a microchip is not required and will not be required to buy or sell. If a microchip linking your identity to your finances was required, you would not be given the option to instead have the "name" or the "number of the Beast's name."

Once one understands the identity of the Beast and the Harlot, one can rest a little easier unless you live in that part of the world.

 

[PlainWord]

This is the most rediculous interpretation I have ever,ever,witnessed.

You say this because you lack understanding and because you force everything to fit your incorrect view about the timing of the Return of Christ and how often He returns.

The saddest thing is you, and many others, don't see or understand God's Plan relative to the end times. His plan, stated in the simplest form, is to allow everyone living to make a choice between Himself and Satan, just as He did with Adam and just as He did with His own Son. You aren't given that choice if you are taken away before the choice presents itself. It is in this way, that Christ can be presented with a chaste virgin bride.

Revelation is written as an encouragement to suffering Christians and as a warning to those who are persecuting believers and worshiping false gods of the wrath they will face for their bad actions. Most of the Book deals with God's punishment and not the Tribulation which proceeds it.

 

[ManonFire63]

Can you read the signs of the times? I am not going to say Christ wont return in the way many people hope he will; however, if the Bible is Truth, then you have to take into account the whole Bible, and what the other prophets have said.

The Prophetic Ministry has been kicked out of most Churches. If we are a Body of Christ, then Prophets are like the Eyes. They see what is going on. They see what God is doing, and how he is combating Lucifer. The Body of Christ is splintered and fragmented and like a blind man.

God does nothing on Earth without first telling his servants the Prophets. (Amos 3:7)

God Promises to resurrect those who have take communion.

There are a lot of Zombie movies lately. The wages of sin are death. Death to God's Spirit. He is the God of the Living.

Music is big with God. Israel sent the walls of Jericho Crumbling with Music. David was a musician who played for King Saul. God moves through Musicians, so does Satan. Here is what God has shown me about the Post Modern Age, and the Resurrection:

Many of the Prophets were sinners before they were called by God. Some were married and divorced. Some Prophets need to know sin so they can lead others out of it. Ezekiel is son of man. Ezekiel wrote of the Valley of the Bones. (Ezekiel 37)
Lincoln Durham, Ballad of a Prodigal Son https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OVZjqhRkqw

Like Neo Waking Up from the Matrix. (Isaiah 42:7) Brothers Bright, Awake O'Sleeper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1xvoD-sP3k

You have the movie "The Fifth Element" where there are 4 Elements and the Fifth is a person. You have Captain Planet the cartoon. You have Avatar the cartoon. It is a recurring theme. In this song you have a Periodic Table of Elements with a center piece of mind. Center Piece of mind can refer to God, or Psalms 118:22 and Luke 20:9-19. The Spirit of God works like an AI when everyone has it, is working towards God's Kingdom and Glory. In the Book of Judges, Israel had no King. They just listened to God till they fell away. Clutch, 100001110101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE0CPvEJXdo

 

[popeye]

You say this because you lack understanding and because you force everything to fit your incorrect view about the timing of the Return of Christ and how often He returns.

The saddest thing is you, and many others, don't see or understand God's Plan relative to the end times. His plan, stated in the simplest form, is to allow everyone living to make a choice between Himself and Satan, just as He did with Adam and just as He did with His own Son. You aren't given that choice if you are taken away before the choice presents itself. It is in this way, that Christ can be presented with a chaste virgin bride.

Revelation is written as an encouragement to suffering Christians and as a warning to those who are persecuting believers and worshiping false gods of the wrath they will face for their bad actions. Most of the Book deals with God's punishment and not the Tribulation which proceeds it.

You aren't given that choice if you are taken away before the choice presents itself. It is in this way, that Christ can be presented with a chaste virgin bride.

Reconcile your statement with your belief the "wicked are taken first" (postribs very own wicked rapture teaching)

 

[ManonFire63]

For those that chose to watched the Youtube videos I posted in #2208, Clutch has some recurring themes in their music. If you can understand all the lyrics to this song, and how it relates to the Bible, you will learning something.
Clutch, Burning Beards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYQLr9cpE

God has a sense of Humor, and there is a Christian concept called the Tie That Binds. It is a proof of God. Take this song, with 10001. They are basically singing the same thing. Imagine Dragons - Radioactive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvTqknDobU

and that is all for now.

 

[popeye]

You say this because you lack understanding and because you force everything to fit your incorrect view about the timing of the Return of Christ and how often He returns.

The saddest thing is you, and many others, don't see or understand God's Plan relative to the end times

I am able to include the bride/groom dimension ,the AC wiping out the saints,and all the escape verses as well as the church in heaven verses (which you virtually eliminate)and have no need to twist rev 20,or Jesus' promise of mansions in heaven.

These "dots" and many more you refuse to look at ,much less connect.

 

[VCO]

Someone has been watching too many Tim LaHaye movies.

No, I do not even like to Tim LaHaye.

 

[VCO]

For those that chose to watched the Youtube videos I posted in #2208, Clutch has some recurring themes in their music. If you can understand all the lyrics to this song, and how it relates to the Bible, you will learning something.
Clutch, Burning Beards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYQLr9cpE

God has a sense of Humor, and there is a Christian concept called the Tie That Binds. It is a proof of God. Take this song, with 10001. They are basically singing the same thing. Imagine Dragons - Radioactive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvTqknDobU

and that is all for now.

No thank you, I prefer to get my Theology for the Scriptures themselves.

 

[VCO]

Can you read the signs of the times? I am not going to say Christ wont return in the way many people hope he will; however, if the Bible is Truth, then you have to take into account the whole Bible, and what the other prophets have said.

The Prophetic Ministry has been kicked out of most Churches. If we are a Body of Christ, then Prophets are like the Eyes. They see what is going on. They see what God is doing, and how he is combating Lucifer. The Body of Christ is splintered and fragmented and like a blind man.

God does nothing on Earth without first telling his servants the Prophets. (Amos 3:7)

God Promises to resurrect those who have take communion.

There are a lot of Zombie movies lately. The wages of sin are death. Death to God's Spirit. He is the God of the Living.

Music is big with God. Israel sent the walls of Jericho Crumbling with Music. David was a musician who played for King Saul. God moves through Musicians, so does Satan. Here is what God has shown me about the Post Modern Age, and the Resurrection:

Many of the Prophets were sinners before they were called by God. Some were married and divorced. Some Prophets need to know sin so they can lead others out of it. Ezekiel is son of man. Ezekiel wrote of the Valley of the Bones. (Ezekiel 37)
Lincoln Durham, Ballad of a Prodigal Son https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OVZjqhRkqw

Like Neo Waking Up from the Matrix. (Isaiah 42:7) Brothers Bright, Awake O'Sleeper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1xvoD-sP3k

You have the movie "The Fifth Element" where there are 4 Elements and the Fifth is a person. You have Captain Planet the cartoon. You have Avatar the cartoon. It is a recurring theme. In this song you have a Periodic Table of Elements with a center piece of mind. Center Piece of mind can refer to God, or Psalms 118:22 and Luke 20:9-19. The Spirit of God works like an AI when everyone has it, is working towards God's Kingdom and Glory. In the Book of Judges, Israel had no King. They just listened to God till they fell away. Clutch, 100001110101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE0CPvEJXdo

You seem to trust the lyrics of songs more than you trust the WORD of GOD.

 

[ManonFire63]

You seem to trust the lyrics of songs more than you trust the WORD of GOD.

I trust in the Word of God. I Trust in the Spirit of God. I Trust in what the Spirit is telling me and showing me. Talmudic Jews have their Law and an Encyclopedia, Muslims have Sharia, Christians have the Spirit of God. Love Jesus and accept his Spirit.

I live in God's Spirit. I live day to day. What is the Spirit of God doing today? Right this minute? How is Revelations going to play out? Are you going to rely on a Pastor with a PHD who knows a lot about the Bible and can theorize, or do you just let the Spirit show you? I just gave you a door to start figuring it out.

 

[VCO]

But the Book of Revelation claims to be a book of signs and symbols. 'And He sent and showed it by signs by His angel to His servant John'

. . .

Are you suggesting that our spiritual resurrection in Christ is not a REALITY? . . .

You claim that you take things literally. But you don't. You only take literally what suits you. Rev 20.4-5 speaks of 'the SOULS' of those who have died in Christ. The soul is not the body. There is no mention of their bodies. If you take that literally it means that they have not yet risen physically. But that doesn't suit you, so you ignore it.

My soul has risen and lives and reigns with Christ NOW, (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1) and when I die my soul will live and reign with Christ in Heaven. And why? Because I have partaken in His resurrection, the FIRST resurrection. Don't you believe that? Why not? Do you treat the remarkable event that as happened to us as Christians based on His amazing resurrection so lightly?

. . .

I see. So anyone who does not agree with you (in spite of the evidence against your view) is spiritually immature? . . .The question is, who should we believe? Christ or Darby and Scofield? I know Who I believe LITERALLY

Tell me, how are our eternally alive spirits (souls) in Heaven eternally alive, when once they were dead in trespasses and sins?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD through the almighty power of Christ's resurrection. Just read through Eph 1.19-2.6 and then deny it. That is the first resurrection. But as you say your eyes are tight shut.

And what about their souls previously? Were they not alive and reigning with Christ in Heaven? Or is Paul mistaken?

Show me any Scripture that speaks of two resurrections (apart from the resurrection of Christ and the general resurrection). You can't. For there isn't one. You would rather believe Scofield and Darby than the Scriptures and Jesus. Your whole faith is founded on a doubtful interpretation of a few verses in a book of signs, when in the Old Testament 'a thousand' invariably means a large indefined number. LOL and you tell me you take Scripture LITERALLY? The only thing
you take literally are self-declared books of symbols.
That is what I am asking you to do.

I wonder who he had in mind here. Was it Darby? Or Newton? Or Scofield? Or maybe all three?

Notice the emphasis on TRUTH, not your cunningly devised fables.

you said it. I simply agree with you.

☝t<><

You know this is ceasing to be any fun, and is becoming quite boring. Let's face it we are at a total Stalemate. You teach the strangest outlook on the End Times Scriptures that I have ever heard. You fail to hear what I actually believe, and then distort what I said, into something else all together. And in my opinion your teachings contradict scripture all over the place. I imagine you pretty much think the same about my beliefs. You are never going persuade me into thinking your way, and I seriously doubt if you can be persuaded into understanding the Scriptures as I do. So I am in favor of simply agreeing to disagree, and just ending this discussion all together. As a matter of courtesy, and to clarify what we literally believe, I will respond to the above, but after that, let's call it a Stalemate.

☝t<><

You imply the Revelation is only a Book of signs, but once again what you say contradicts what the Scriptures actually say:

Revelation 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

☝t<><

NOW if you are talking about becoming Born Again, when you make reference to "our spiritual resurrection", you once again fail to understand what I actually said. Let me put it as simple as I can.

NOT every person that claims to be a Christian and acknowledges that Jesus is the LORD, is a real Christian.

ONLY those who have had their human spirit born into eternal life by the Holy Spirit are real Christians.

Those who only acknowledge who Jesus is and occasionally bow to Him, only have the faith of the demons:

Mark 5:2-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] He lived in the tombs. No one was able to restrain him anymore—even with chains—
[SUP]4 [/SUP] because he often had been bound with shackles and chains, but had snapped off the chains and smashed the shackles. No one was strong enough to subdue him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And always, night and day, he was crying out among the tombs and in the mountains and cutting himself with stones.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And he cried out with a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You before God, don’t torment me!”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For He had told him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “What is your name?” He asked him. “My name is Legion,” he answered Him, “because we are many.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And he kept begging Him not to send them out of the region.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now a large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The demons begged Him, “Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
So acknowledging who Jesus is and kneeling before Him, is only the faith of demons, or those on the Broad Road of Destruction. That kind of faith will NEVER SAVE.

Only when the Holy Spirit has Given you a broken contrite heart mourning over your utter sinfulness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit you surrender complete control of your life to Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning Master, willingly out of LOVE for HIM, because of the LOVE of GOD that the Holy Spirit poured into your heart (Rom. 5:5); will you have your human spirit born into eternal life by the Holy Spirit Himself. Prior to that your human spirit was dead. THAT IS WHAT I MEAN WHEN I USE THE TERM "Spiritual Resurrection", it is the human spirit being born from death to life by the Holy Spirit. And it happens the moment the Holy Spirit puts genuine faith in our heart, and our human spirit is born into eternal life, AND eternally alive from that moment on.

☝t<><

NO WHERE in Rev. 20:4-5 does it say the literal Souls of anyone died. That is talking about those mortals who were beheaded literally, and the term souls, can also be a term to refer to living beings. {Gen 2:7, Ez.18:4, 1 Cor. 15:45} Because of that very confusion in the English language, some newer translations improved that English understanding by wording it this way:

Revelation 20:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The thrones are literal; the martyrs are literal; Jesus is literal; the Word of God is literal; the Beast is literal; the image is literal; the mark of the Beast is literal; their foreheads and their hands are literal; and the thousand years are literal. It is all literal. A thousand years means a thousand years. If God meant that it was eternal, I think He would have said so. If He meant it was five hundred years, He would have said so. Cannot God say what He means? Of course He can, and when He says a thousand years, He means a thousand years.
The Greek word for "resurrection" is anastasei, which means "to stand up, a bodily resurrection." It is rather difficult for a spirit to stand up, and those who spiritualize this section are at a loss to explain just how a spirit stands up! This is the same word used by Paul in 1Corinthians 15 for the resurrection of Christ and believers.
"And I saw thrones and they sat upon them" is the one statement that is not entirely clear. Who are "they"? It is my judgment that they must be the total number of those who have part in the first resurrection, which includes the saved of all ages.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

20:4 John now sees people enthroned in heaven with authority to rule. These are saints of the Church Age who will reign with Christ as His Bride. John also sees a company of martyrs, who had refused to take the mark of the beast. These are clearly tribulation saints who died for their faith. Both companies will reign with Christ during the golden age of peace and prosperity.20:5 The first part of verse 5 must be understood as a parenthesis. The rest of the dead refers to unbelievers of all ages who will be raised at the end of the Millennium to stand before the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The statement This is the first resurrection refers back to verse 4. The first resurrection is not a single event. It describes the resurrection of the righteous at various times. It includes the resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:23), the resurrection of those who are Christ's when He raptures the church (1 Thess. 4:13-18), the resurrection of the two witnesses whose bodies will lie in the streets (Rev. 11:11), and the resurrection of tribulation saints who are described here (see also Dan. 12:2a). In other words, the first resurrection includes the resurrection of Christ and of all true believers, though they are raised at different times. It occurs in several stages.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

So how do I explain that John could see souls or spirits of those beheaded under the altar (Rev. 6:9). I think it is evidence that John's spirit was literally take out of his body for that temporary period of time and literally taken to heaven to see these things. There is a great deal of Scriptures that support the idea that the entire spiritual realm of Created Beings can see each other, especially in Heaven; even though to us mortals they are invisible, and they are never seen by mortals, UNLESS those angels WANT TO BE SEEN by the mortals.

☝t<><

The nature of one who is spiritually immature, is that he or she will examine every new wind of doctrine, and his or her understanding is thereby is constantly changing, and he or she will rarely can take a firm stance on anything. A spiritually mature person is one who has already examined the teachings by comparing Scripture to Scripture, and comes to an absolute understanding of that subject, having let the Scriptures define that understanding. Therefore the spiritually mature person, will be unshakable from his or her BELIEFS.

☝t<><

You are confusing the First Resurrection with becoming spiritually Born Again. They are NOT the same thing, the First Resurrection is when true Believers have their Bodies come out of the graves. That born again experience is when the Holy Spirit immerses us into the spiritual body of Jesus Christ. THAT IS A FACT, BUT IT NOT THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

Luke 14:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." {Spoken of as a separate event from the Resurrection of the Unrighteous}

Acts 24:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And I have a hope in God, which these men themselves also accept, that there is going to be a resurrection, both of the righteous and the unrighteous. {TWO EVENTS}

☝t<><

You said: "I wonder who he had in mind here. Was it Darby? Or Newton? Or Scofield? Or maybe all three?"
I cannot comment on that, because I have never studied the writings of Darby, and Newton, I do not even know who he is, and Scofield was way too liberal for me to bother reading.

As I stated before, I am a CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL not associated with any particular Denomination; and I will STAND FIRM on our Beliefs.

Grace to You Doctrinal Statement of Faith

 

[VCO]

Can you explain this in light of your comments above:

14 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

The Lord is back and there are still believers dying. How do you account for that?

Paul teaches that "death" is the last enemy Christ defeats.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Clearly, Christ does a little "reigning" first before He defeats "death" wouldn't you agree? Consider the three proclaiming angels:

Angel #1: “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Angel #2: “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

Angel #3: “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Are the above warnings of sequential events? Seems like it to me.

So Christ is on Mount Zion then we have:

Warning that God's Judgment has come which is followed by the announcement that Babylon has fallen. Hmm, I wonder if God's judgment caused Babylon to fall??? Then we have warning not to take the "mark" or worship the "Beast." Again:

1. Christ returns
2. Warning of pending judgment
3. Babylon falls
4. Don't take Mark of Beast or worship it's image
5. Saints will still die after this

Huh? How can Saints still die after Christ's Return?? Can you explain this???

Sure, but you if are NOT just hunting for something else that you can scoff at; you can either read all of my previous posts, or search for it in the Scriptures yourself. Seek and yee shall find.

The Lamb Standing on Mount Zion is when he first sets foot on Earth at His Second Coming, AFTER the 7 year Covenant the Antichrist makes with Israel is finished. The 144,000 are all Jews with the seal of GOD in their foreheads, while Christians all have the Seal of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Antichrist will behead every Christian or Jew who refuses to bow to him as god the latter half of his 7 year Covenant with Israel. The Great Tribulation will be the largest mass murder of Believers (Jews and Christians) the world has ever known, and it will make the 6,000,000 Jews killed in WWII, look small in comparison. I believe the 144,000 Messiah Believing Jews will be the only surviving mortal Believers to enter the Kingdom in their mortal bodies. All other Christians and Messianic Jews will enter His 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom in their immortal Bodies. The rest you can look up.

 

[VCO]

I trust in the Word of God. I Trust in the Spirit of God. I Trust in what the Spirit is telling me and showing me. Talmudic Jews have their Law and an Encyclopedia, Muslims have Sharia, Christians have the Spirit of God. Love Jesus and accept his Spirit.

I live in God's Spirit. I live day to day. What is the Spirit of God doing today? Right this minute? How is Revelations going to play out? Are you going to rely on a Pastor with a PHD who knows a lot about the Bible and can theorize, or do you just let the Spirit show you? I just gave you a door to start figuring it out.

Sorry, but I opened the door to my heart for Jesus to come in the last week of Dec. 1977; and HE is still with me.

 

[VCO]

This is the most rediculous interpretation I have ever,ever,witnessed.

I guess all we can do is Laugh together, about it.

It is just signs of the times and we are getting very close to being CALLED OUT to go to our new home.

I long for it with my whole being, but at the same time I have a sense of urgency to share the truth with others before we go.

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

2 Timothy 3:1-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But know this: Difficult times will come in the last days.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] holding to the form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid these people!
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.


And it will get worse, unfortunately:


1 Timothy 4:1-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] through the hypocrisy of liars whose consciences are seared.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] They forbid marriage and demand abstinence from foods that God created to be received with gratitude by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing should be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] since it is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, nourished by the words of the faith and the good teaching that you have followed.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But have nothing to do with irreverent and silly myths. Rather, train yourself in godliness,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for the training of the body has a limited benefit, but godliness is beneficial in every way, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (HCSB)
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP] Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?
[SUP]56 [/SUP] Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP] But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
[SUP]58 [/SUP] Therefore, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord’s work, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[ManonFire63]

Sorry, but I opened the door to my heart for Jesus to come in the last week of Dec. 1977; and HE is still with me.

I was born in 1984. I have been a Christian for that long. Asking Jesus into your heart, is not the same thing as being guided by his Spirit. I didn't learn to listen to his Spirit till I was about 30 and I was called into his service. Those with an ear to hear, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches.