OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[mailmandan]

if your going to quote john you should continue quoting what he said.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

so how do you relate the verses with your post? since whoever sins and never known God period. And whoever is born of God does not sin? Oh where did I get that?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So it would seem whoever is born of God must abide in God. for if not, they could fall into a sinful lifestyle. Yet here John makes it clear. they can not do that, because they have been born of God.

See how easy it is to take context and all of scripture. and make it agree, there would be alot less twisting of the word of God to make a false doctrines made by men.

Amen! Also, in John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit. When Jesus spoke these words in verse 2, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified (John 7:38,39) had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). So "in Me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. In Ephesians 1:13, we read, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. This was not a present reality for those prior to Christ being glorified. So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them.

 

[JGIG]

Well, your gospel is not of the Bible dear sir. John 12:48 says that God's Word will judge us if we reject His words. So it is not just a belief alone. For even the demons believe and tremble.

Here's what James actually says about what demons believe:

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (from James 2:19)​

James does not say that the demons believe in the Gospel, of the Work of Christ, but simply that there is one God. Written to the 12 Tribes of Israel, one could deduce that belief in the Shema,

"Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One",​

is what James was referring to, and that, though, true, is not the Gospel, and won't save you - even the demons believe that!

That is not the point James was trying to make. James was trying to say that a true faith is going to be followed by works. if not, it is a dead faith. Can a dead faith save anyone?

What were the examples that James used to describe a faith that works?

Abraham and Rahab.

Abraham believed God and demonstrated it by being willing to offer his son - actually putting him up on an altar.

God credited Abraham's belief/faith to him as righteousness.

After that, Abraham sinned. A lot. Yet God still credited Abraham's faith as righteousness and didn't condemn Abraham for the sins he later committed. Why? Because Abraham didn't just mentally ascent to God's good idea - he believed God and trusted Him with his life, the life of his son. God had promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations - then God asked Abraham to give up his childless son. Yet Abraham trusted. How many times did he do that work? ONCE. Isaac was not offered over and over again (see some foreshadowing there ?).

Rahab was asked to open a door (another foreshadowing ). She trusted God and obeyed. How many times? ONCE. That demonstrated that she believed what God said - not a mental ascent - but actually put active faith in what God said. Was the rest of her life filled with opening doors? Did she live a sinless life after that?

If you're going to use James 2 to support a faith + performance theology or that demons believe the same things Chrsitians believe, then you have some issues to reconcile.

-JGIG

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

We are to abide in the doctrine of Christ,

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

The Father removes the branches that bear no fruit and men gather these branches

Psalm 125:5As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, (((( the LORD ))))) shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.

Amen! Preach it Sis! This is not a do nothing, live like the devil and still be saved no matter what kind of faith. Abiding in Christ is abiding in the Truth, which is every word of God. OSAS says you cannot fall from faith, which is a direct casting of the truth to ground and stomping on it. Jesus said plain as day it would happen...

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

But they won't believe Jesus either, because they love the doctrine of men more (who come in their own name) better than the Light of the Truth.

They want to hear feel good preachers who tell them they can sin all they want and still be "IN CHRIST" WHICH IS A LIE.



Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

 

[dcontroversal]

They want to hear feel good preachers who tell them they can sin all they want and still be "IN CHRIST" WHICH IS A LIE.



.

How about cutting and pasting 5, 3 even any quotes from people who teach and believe in the security of the believer which specifically states the bolded lie you just propagated.......we will all wait to see that LIE in print in your next post...and if you cannot produce that...it tells all that you are a liar with false accusations.....we are waiting.....!

 

[sparkman]

I like this list

To teach you can lose salvation you must deny and reject the following.....

1. The good work that Jesus has begun in you he will finish...
2. Jesus is the beginner and FINISHER of our faith
3. I will never leave thee or forsake thee
4. The continual mediatorship of Jesus and his continual intersession
5. Jesus saves to the uttermost
6. The sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption
7. The use and reason of chastisement including physical death
8. The example of the fornicator in Corinthians and the fact that his spirit is still saved in the day of Jesus Christ
9. Ecclesiastes 3:11 and WHATSOEVER God does lasting FOREVER
10 The words eternal and everlasting as applied unto life and salvation
11. The condemnation of the law being removed from believers
12. The difference between OT saints and NT saints and death without mercy under the OT and being found under Grace in the NT
13. The righteousness of God without the law being applied unto the believer by faith
14. The truth that one born of God does NOT SIN (The SPIRIT) while bound in a body of SIN
15. The prodigal son who was ALIVE through the whole process, yet perceived as dead by his actions
16. The word justification and it's legal application unto the believer
17. The word sanctification as applied unto the believer (positionally in Christ)
18. Being in the hands of the Father, Son and sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE
19. The verb tenses of the Greek language as applied unto salvation and eternal life
20 That Jesus will LOSE nothing that he has been given, but will raise it up at the last day
21. That our life has been HID within Christ
22. That our sins have been imputed unto Christ while having the righteousness of Christ imputed unto the believer
23. That we are saved and justified by the perfect, unfailing faith of JESUS
24. That we are KEPT by the POWER of GOD
25. That it is not earned, kept facilitated by our works, abilities or righteousness that we do
26. That we are called, saved and justified before the foundation of the world (in the eyes of God) with God knowing every sin we would commit
27.The where sins abounds in a believer that GRACE MUCH MORE ABOUNDS

and on and on and on..........ALL of the principles above have to be rejected to teach and believe you can lose salvation...........

 

[mailmandan]

They were washed, but like the proverbial pig they returned to the ways of the world, and sin, and filth, like a pig wallowing in the mire.

Washed/cleaned up on the outside doesn't mean washed/cleaned up on the inside. Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But true believers have escaped the corruption (Strongs #5356 - different Greek word) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk) that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4). Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. The pig returned to the ways of the world, and sin, and filth, because by nature it was still a pig and did not become a sheep. Temporary self moral reformation is no substitute for regeneration.

 

[MarcR]

I agree with what is written Hebrews 3:12 if you do not that is between you ad God.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with what is writtein in Heb 3:12 that again is between you and God.

Desired,



Heb 3:12
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
KJV


I can see how this appears to speak against OSAS. I don't interpret it that way. I see this as a differentiation between intellectual assent and true faith. The writer of Hebrews is saying that belief that doesn't include trust is not saving faith.


unbelief ἀπιστίας means without trust. The same issue tears apart marriages and leads to divorces.

Jas 1:5-8
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
KJV


James is addressing the same issue here.

 

[dcontroversal]

I like this list

Thanks...I actually thought of about 20 more but ran out of time to edit....I will add them in and repost the list sometime in the future when this foolish, heretical argument arises again and it will......no matter how they slice and dice at the end of the day the ability to lose salvation = saved by works even though they will argue that fact.........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! Preach it Sis! This is not a do nothing, live like the devil and still be saved no matter what kind of faith. Abiding in Christ is abiding in the Truth, which is every word of God. OSAS says you cannot fall from faith, which is a direct casting of the truth to ground and stomping on it. Jesus said plain as day it would happen...

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

But they won't believe Jesus either, because they love the doctrine of men more (who come in their own name) better than the Light of the Truth.

They want to hear feel good preachers who tell them they can sin all they want and still be "IN CHRIST" WHICH IS A LIE.



Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

what, you want her to keep preaching a lie?

Should she not preach what God says?

1 John 3:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6[/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8[/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


seems like a contradiction does it not? How can a true believer teach one can sin all they want, when God says a chikd of God can not (live in) sin?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Rahab was asked to open a door (another foreshadowing ). She trusted God and obeyed. How many times? ONCE. That demonstrated that she believed what God said - not a mental ascent - but actually put active faith in what God said. Was the rest of her life filled with opening doors? Did she live a sinless life after that?

If you're going to use James 2 to support a faith + performance theology or that demons believe the same things Chrsitians believe, then you have some issues to reconcile.

-JGIG

It's actually a pretty horrible lie. What it's saying is that the Lord could have come to man, told man to offer a sheep, and better get it right by the Torah this time, then return to heaven. It denigrates the need for the blood of Christ, His sacrifice, His atonement on our behalf, His righteousness, that we may be forgiven and made righteous: it's a denial of the gospel that saves. Doctrines of demons involve bondage to works and commandments of men.

God's standard is absolute holiness, which no man, but the Lord Jesus, has or ever could attain to, whether born again or not. Scripture is clear there are none righteous, not one. It's message board foolishness. Who, of all humanity, saved or unsaved, goes around saying they're perfect? Maybe some poor schizophrenic. Worse of these, they deign to not fall short of the glory of God. It's plain ridiculous, taken at face value.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Well, your gospel is not of the Bible dear sir. John 12:48 says that God's Word will judge us if we reject His words. So it is not just a belief alone. For even the demons believe and tremble.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:22) You are such a fool!

John 12:48 says, "He who rejects Me ... " -- the Greek aqeteo (atheteo) meaning "disregard, set aside" as an initial reaction -- " ... and does not receive ... " -- the Greek lambano (lambano) meaning "to take so as to make [it] one's own" -- " ... My sayings ... " -- the Greek rema (rhema) meaning "the spoken word." Jesus says in this passage that one who immediately disregards Him without considering His words, without taking them as their own, will be judged. This does not reference the believer. It references the stubborn unbeliever who refuses to see Christ as Messiah, Savior, Lord, and God.

Only fools throw verses at the wall hoping they will stick. Your deliberate misuse of Scripture, your continual out-of-context rants that prove nothing but your own ignorance, will be the rod by which you are measured and found wanting. I reject you, your teaching, and I pray fervently for your salvation, because you are not saved!

Now ...

To all who read this and wonder at my boldness: We cannot lose our salvation -- as, from beginning to end, it is all undergirded by God. Those who would mix "works" -- essentially, behavior on a day-to-day basis -- with Christ are Judaizers, liars who would convince you through misrepresented, out-of-context, poorly exegeted passages that it is possible to be a true believer in Christ Jesus and "fall away." It is they, not struggling Christians, who are not under faith through Christ's grace -- and they never have been.

Taking verses out of context leads to just this kind -- Jason's kind -- of error and misunderstanding. To properly understand scriptural context requires the practice of four simple principles:

• Literal meaning: What does the passage plainly say?
• Historical Setting: The events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time.
• Grammar: The immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found.
• Synthesis: Comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning.

Jason, ISIT, and others not only do not study Scripture in context, they refuse to do it. Why? Because they have swallowed a doctrine rather than Christ.

They refuse to admit context is crucial to biblical exegesis. If they did, they would never buy into the rubbish some false teacher has stuffed into their heads. Context is one of the most important fundamentals of properly understanding Scripture.

Liars, false teachers, and Judaizers don't want you to understand Scripture. That is why those on this board deliberately mount campaigns that include five, ten, sometimes twenty threads a day that deny Christ's efficacy for your salvation, wanting you to believe He is not sufficient to cover your sins, that He expects you do do the impossible: Be perfect.

Reject factious men such as these, said Paul, those who repeatedly and stubbornly engages in " ... foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless [ . . . ] such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Rarely do I condemn so strongly someone who claims to be in Christ. But after months of observation, discussion, argument, seeing them divide this board and create " ... strife and disputes about the Law ... " such as Paul warned us about, I am bedrock certain these men stand condemned before the Lord. Reject them. Their divisiveness and controversies lead them into death. Don't walk that road with them.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

How about cutting and pasting 5, 3 even any quotes from people who teach and believe in the security of the believer which specifically states the bolded lie you just propagated.......we will all wait to see that LIE in print in your next post...and if you cannot produce that...it tells all that you are a liar with false accusations.....we are waiting.....!

You call what the scriptures say would happen a lie, I call it the Truth.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I speak the Truth according to the words of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You call what the scriptures say would happen a lie, I call it the Truth.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I speak the Truth according to the words of God.

then why does your so called truth contradict the words of God?? and puff up men, and not God. and claim God is powerless to keep those who are his?

 

[mailmandan]

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

I understand the rocky soil to represent a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and IN CONTRAST good soil represents a person properly preapared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience. We have every reason to believe that this wasn't real, saving belief for the shallow ground hearers. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth, no root. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who superficially "believe" and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. The good ground hearer persevered because the seed fell on good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, (properly prepared in heart) and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. The other did not persevere because the seed fell on shallow rocky soil, lacked moisture and had no root, (not properly prepared in heart) so of course a lack of perseverance was inevitable. It's obvious what the cause and effect are. The condition of the soil preceded the results.

Temporary shallow belief that has no root is to be distinguished from genuine saving faith in Christ. Temporary shallow belief is most likely grounded in the emotional life. That’s why it is not difficult to understand why this kind of belief withers away when it loses its appeal when persecution comes. Temporary shallow belief that lacks moisture, has no root and produces no fruit is not saving belief. As I have mentioned before, John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not born again. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31-59 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of attempting to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" and He knew this from the beginning (vs. 64).

 

[DesiredHaven]

if your going to quote john you should continue quoting what he said.

No, I really dont have to continue quoting what he said because everyone here knows very well what is said there as its one of those verses here that get people slandering you.

So you really dont need to continue to quote it because it does not violate the context or the other verses which agree in the same and keeps to the same theme of the one picture.

I have adressed the same before on other threads and was verbally vomitted on and words put in my mouth and falsely accused according to the same, I am certainly not interested in taking up any conversation with you.

I have no problem with any of the verses I posted, if you do, thats between you and God.

 

[Pumicestone]

Wow, so many equally-intelligent, well-meaning people, all reading from the same set of writings .....
how many vastly different and conflicting conclusions.
And all totally convinced they have "the Truth".

What a pity things could not have been made clearer.

 

[dcontroversal]

"Professing to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:22) You are such a fool!

John 12:48 says, "He who rejects Me ... " -- the Greek aqeteo (atheteo) meaning "disregard, set aside" as an initial reaction -- " ... and does not receive ... " -- the Greek lambano (lambano) meaning "to take so as to make [it] one's own" -- " ... My sayings ... " -- the Greek rema (rhema) meaning "the spoken word." Jesus says in this passage that one who immediately disregards Him without considering His words, without taking them as their own, will be judged. This does not reference the believer. It references the stubborn unbeliever who refuses to see Christ as Messiah, Savior, Lord, and God.

Only fools throw verses at the wall hoping they will stick. Your deliberate misuse of Scripture, your continual out-of-context rants that prove nothing but your own ignorance, will be the rod by which you are measured and found wanting. I reject you, your teaching, and I pray fervently for your salvation, because you are not saved!

Now ...

To all who read this and wonder at my boldness: We cannot lose our salvation -- as, from beginning to end, it is all undergirded by God. Those who would mix "works" -- essentially, behavior on a day-to-day basis -- with Christ are Judaizers, liars who would convince you through misrepresented, out-of-context, poorly exegeted passages that it is possible to be a true believer in Christ Jesus and "fall away." It is they, not struggling Christians, who are not under faith through Christ's grace -- and they never have been.

Taking verses out of context leads to just this kind -- Jason's kind -- of error and misunderstanding. To properly understand scriptural context requires the practice of four simple principles:

• Literal meaning: What does the passage plainly say?
• Historical Setting: The events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time.
• Grammar: The immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found.
• Synthesis: Comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning.

Jason, ISIT, and others not only do not study Scripture in context, they refuse to do it. Why? Because they have swallowed a doctrine rather than Christ.

They refuse to admit context is crucial to biblical exegesis. If they did, they would never buy into the rubbish some false teacher has stuffed into their heads. Context is one of the most important fundamentals of properly understanding Scripture.

Liars, false teachers, and Judaizers don't want you to understand Scripture. That is why those on this board deliberately mount campaigns that include five, ten, sometimes twenty threads a day that deny Christ's efficacy for your salvation, wanting you to believe He is not sufficient to cover your sins, that He expects you do do the impossible: Be perfect.

Reject factious men such as these, said Paul, those who repeatedly and stubbornly engages in " ... foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless [ . . . ] such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

Rarely do I condemn so strongly someone who claims to be in Christ. But after months of observation, discussion, argument, seeing them divide this board and create " ... strife and disputes about the Law ... " such as Paul warned us about, I am bedrock certain these men stand condemned before the Lord. Reject them. Their divisiveness and controversies lead them into death. Don't walk that road with them.

Amen to that........and biblically I would agree.........to believe that one can lose salvation = saved by works which is false....there are so many principles that must be rejected like the list I gave to believe and teach you can lose salvation.....it totally denies the eternal aspect of what God does as applied to "whatsoever" in Ecclesiastes 3:11!

 

[crossnote]

Mommy, I think I'll pass this time around...

 

[JesusIsAll]

Washed/cleaned up on the outside doesn't mean washed/cleaned up on the inside. Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But true believers have escaped the corruption (Strongs #5356 - different Greek word) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk) that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4). Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. The pig returned to the ways of the world, and sin, and filth, because by nature it was still a pig and did not become a sheep. Temporary self moral reformation is no substitute for regeneration.

A dog can't return to its vomit, without still being a dog. That's stumbling at the very concept of being a new creature, in Christ, by the Spirit of Christ.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Not maybe, might get, but know that you have. It's hard to conceive of a "faith" that doesn't trust the word of God.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

what, you want her to keep preaching a lie?

Should she not preach what God says?

What she posted was what God says, how is God's words a lie? Here is her post...

Originally Posted by DesiredHaven We are to abide in the doctrine of Christ,

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

The Father removes the branches that bear no fruit and men gather these branches

Psalm 125:5As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, (((( the LORD ))))) shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel. [ end quote]

You people are calling what God says is true a lie, you say a person cannot fall away, Jesus said people would fall away which I've proven by scripture. But you say Gods words are lies. WOW!