OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[Cee]

[SUP]WEDDING GARMENT

Matt 22:11 [/SUP]But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.

Jesus is the wedding garment. Our works are a polluted garment.

Isaiah 64:6 vWe have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.


Genesis 3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.



Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, ba great multitude that no one could number, cfrom every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dclothed in white robes, with epalm branches in their hands

Only one way to the Father: Jesus said to him, “I am lthe way, and mthe truth, and nthe life. No one comes to the Father except through me.



The self-righteous Pharisees who heard this parable did not miss Jesus’ point.

In the very next verse, “the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words” . The Parable of the Wedding Feast is also a warning to us, to make sure we are relying on God’s provision of salvation, not on our own good works or religious service.

Matt 22:15 gThen the Pharisees went and plotted how hto entangle him in his words.

 

[Sirk]

I believe I already started the discussion on it already.

You mean lecture right...I think you're confused as to what a discussion is.

 

[sparkman]

I don't insist on others' believing the doctrine of eternal security if they vehemently deny it. I tell them they might not be saved to start with, and if they aren't saved, they aren't secure. A lack of security may indicate a lack of real faith. The only thing I care about is them laying their condemnation on real believers.

 

[Blain]

Regarding the osas I only know that if one has truly fallen love with God and has made an intimate relationship with him you can never go back

 

[eternallife7]

Faith is not a mental acknowledgement. Read Hebrews 11. Faith is described as taking action. Also, James says faith without works is dead. So if one's faith is devoid of any of the fruits of the Spirit then how can they truly have the Spirit?

Jason0047 hey buddy take the action and understand this verse in scripture
2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, we personally had a death sentence within ourselves, so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead.

God loved us so much He didn't even hold back His own Son to save us so we can trust this scripture as well. Don't worry He will still have you learning and obeying Him while your trust is completely in Him.

 

[Reborn]

Can't find it, Jason.

Can l assume you think its about being booted out of our place of being saved?
I have no idea how you approach scripture, so forgive me if l'm off.

 

[eternallife7]

Jason0047 hey buddy take the action and understand this verse in scripture
2 Corinthians 1:9 Indeed, we personally had a death sentence within ourselves, so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead.

God loved us so much He didn't even hold back His own Son to save us so we can trust this scripture as well. Don't worry He will still have you learning and obeying Him while your trust is completely in Him.

In fact it is the only way we can learn and obey Him.

 

[Sirk]

In fact it is the only way we can learn and obey Him.

Get ready...here it comes in 3,2,1......

 

[Jason0047]

[SUP]WEDDING GARMENT

Matt 22:11 [/SUP]But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless.

Jesus is the wedding garment. Our works are a polluted garment.

Isaiah 64:6 vWe have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.


Genesis 3:21 And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.



Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, ba great multitude that no one could number, cfrom every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dclothed in white robes, with epalm branches in their hands

Only one way to the Father:Jesus said to him, “I am lthe way, and mthe truth, and nthe life. No one comes to the Father except through me.



The self-righteous Pharisees who heard this parable did not miss Jesus’ point.

In the very next verse, “the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words” . The Parable of the Wedding Feast is also a warning to us, to make sure we are relying on God’s provision of salvation, not on our own good works or religious service.

Matt 22:15 gThen the Pharisees went and plotted how hto entangle him in his words.

Well, for one I do not believe it is our righteousness that saves us. I believe a saint yields to the work or righteousness that the Lord wants to do thru them. This is after they are saved. Revelation 19:8 says the fine linen that the saints wore was the righteousness of the saints. We know this is talking about a wedding garment because verses 7 and 9 both refer to this event as the Marriage supper of the Lamb. So this is a wedding garment and it is symbolized as being the righteousness of the saints. Now, for clarification, the "righteousness of the saints" is merely the work that God does in the believer's life (When they surrender to Him). The Scriptures talk from two different perspectives in regards to works. They talk about how we will do works and they talk about how God does the work in the believer. The man who did not have on a wedding garment in the Parable of the Wedding Banquet (Matthew 22) clearly is talking about the same wedding garment in Revelation 19. So the reason why the man was bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness is because they did not have any true righteousness within their lives that comes from God.

 

[Jason0047]

Can't find it, Jason.

Can l assume you think its about being booted out of our place of being saved?
I have no idea how you approach scripture, so forgive me if l'm off.

Post #549.
Post #550.
Post #552.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Of course it is. But don't expect him to admit it. His overwhelming internal "must" is, above all else, that he be right. That is his god. Which is why is not saved.

Speaking of which

Scripture was posted by me and commented on by InSpiritInTruth in post #457 (who was agreeing with what was written very plainly) I had commented once, it was reduced again to a word and I took up commenting once again.

InSpiritIntruth was slandered and accused of heresey for somehow twisting the words of God when he approved the word of God and you condemned it with shame.

This verse here was quoted (where we were just looking at one of the two branches Jesus speaks of in John 15:2)

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
he "taketh away" [SUP]G142[/SUP]( snip )

You respond to over the words "taketh away" [SUP]G142[/SUP] <--- click here for anyone following

And said

Let's deal with this crap while we're at it, too. You've been told before, by me and by others, that the modern translations inexplicably carry over a bad translation from the KJV for no good reason. (Post #457 OSAS)

Big time crap here, lets look

The word wrongly translated "takes away" is the Greek airo (airo), meaning in reality "lift up." Then and now,a storm afflicting a vineyard would result in the vinedresser going through the vineyard the next day, brush and a bucket of soapy water in hand.Finding a branch knocked down into the mud, he cleans it off,gently lifts it up, and ties it back into the trellis so it will grow healthy and bear fruit.

Thats not what Jesus was talking about at all

Firstly, there are two kinds of branches being spoken of in John 15:2 (Jesus being the Vine in verse 1)

This kind of branch (no fruit bearing)

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
he taketh away: (VW tries to explain how this one gets tied to a trellis after some soapy water)

And in another post this other kind of branch (the fruit bearing one) he purgeth (but again VW doesnt like that word either he prefers prune) I say who cares the verse itself makes it evident (regardless) that it is a method for bringing forth more fruit to an already fruit bearing branch

John 15:2...every branch that beareth fruit,
he purgeth it (or pruneth chose whichever word) that it may bring forth more fruit.

One branch is purged/ pruned (whichever word) and because it is bringing forth fruit, and so it is pruned that it might bring forth more fruit. Whereas the other branch is taken away (or as VW would insist as being gently lifted up but I say chose whichever word for the fruitless branch you want (because its not going up on an imaginary trellis) but cast forth, and gather of men and then cast into the fire)

Jesus tell us about this particular branch

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

We believe Jesus word on it, but what has VW to say about that fruitless branch?

...the vinedresser going through the vineyard the next day, brush and a bucket of soapy water in hand. Finding a branch knocked down into the mud, he cleans it off, gently lifts it up, and ties it back into the trellis so it will grow healthy and bear fruit.

Aagain, thats not what Jesus said

he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire,
and they are burned.

Notice there is no brush and bucket of soapy water there, the branch is not being tied to any trellis

But rather, the branches are cast into the fire.

You might insist that if we go here

Go to any vineyard in the U.S., you will still see this process today.

Even though I might suggest that you crack open the gospel of John and take a gander at the Vine/Husbandman process for fruitless branches are. Especially since we all hear the "context, contex context" (trumpet) just before the word wrangling come in and much tado over word that amounts to nothing all. Only for them to toss out the book altogether and head out into left field themselves

Jesus used a strong real-life example of how He heals broken Christians.

The fruitless branch was handled this way

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me,he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus did not use what you say he used

These are non fruit bearing branches (in Him) the Vine who the Father /who is the Husbandman takes away (whether gently so with a pointed toe or some other less dainty fashion its irrelevant they are cast forth from Christ/ The Vine (led forth of the Father) gathered by men and cast into the fire not into your imaginary soapy bucket to be tried onto any trellis)

You adds some straw to using Gods words saying

But you would have people believe He is short-tempered, ill-willed, and condemns them for being human.

Getting people to stay with what is actually written would be great

Is God considered too short tempered and ill willed toward the fruitless branch?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me,he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


As we can see it doesnt get gently lifted up and tied to any trellis after some soapy water

But you would say to the words of Jesus (because thats all there was regarding that oone branch

You are to be shamed and rejected for such nonsense.

For believeing Jesus on that verse on the fruitless branch

This is exactly what Jesus is talking about, but you again twist, lie, and misrepresent God's words so as to mislead the brothers and sisters on here immature enough in the faith not to know you are a false teach, a heretic, and deservedly ignored for your complete lack of knowledge, and your utter lack of Christ in you.

Contradictiing Jesus Christs own words with your own story line while calling others a heretic for twisting his words?

From this post on this one verse, a whole new story line emmerges and Jesus words take a back seat to an imagination of man

 

[Bookends]

lol, Jesus said if we are faithless, he is faithfull he can not deny himself

Jesus said he will leave the flock to get the sheep who walked away.

God said he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

God said whoever places their FAITH in him will never perish, but HAS eternal life. He also said they have the eternal seal of the spirit. which guarantees their inheritance (eph 1)

He told the church to remain in him, and he would remain in that local church, he did not say that about induvidual people. that places salvation based on our power and our strength and not gods.

So yes, Jesus Faithful, so I would imaging Jesus would have to faithful to what he said in Matthew:

"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

 

[Bookends]

You act as one who has never experienced grace. You speak as one who does not know Gods grace.

It is the grace of God that saves. You either trust Gods grace or you trust yourself. Gods grace needs no help from you as Gods grace is wholly sufficient to save and those whom God has saved He seals with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Thing is that those who deny Gods ability to save substitute themselves as more important than trusting God to do what He has promised. Go ahead and trust yourself as for me I'm going to trust God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What does Grace teach us?

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for HimselfHis own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

 

[Bookends]

I don't insist on others' believing the doctrine of eternal security if they vehemently deny it. I tell them they might not be saved to start with, and if they aren't saved, they aren't secure. A lack of security may indicate a lack of real faith. The only thing I care about is them laying their condemnation on real believers.

In Christ we are eternal secure, if you are in Christ you should feel victorious and confident regarding your salvation. Outside of Christ, there is no such guarantee. The questions is can some lose their salvation after they obtain it. This is really not a question man can answer, since we really can't see who genuinely accepted Christ to begin with. What we do see is that some people who seemed to have genuinely accepted the gospel fall away, completely denying Christ and the faith. There are plenty of warnings in the old and new testaments to believers about deserting their faith/God or Gospel of Christ.

 

[SarahM777]

In Christ we are eternal secure, if you are in Christ you should feel victorious and confident regarding your salvation. Outside of Christ, there is no such guarantee. The questions is can some lose their salvation after they obtain it. This is really not a question man can answer, since we really can't see who genuinely accepted Christ to begin with. What we do see is that some people who seemed to have genuinely accepted the gospel fall away, completely denying Christ and the faith. There are plenty of warnings in the old and new testaments to believers about deserting the Gospel of Christ.

The real should be can one go from being in belief and then go into unbelief? No one will be saved in unbelief,which is the first premise we are given. We are declared righteous by faith. If one walks from the faith then how is that person declared righteous?

 

[p_rehbein]

I had not intended to continue commenting, not because of any anger or such, just because I know that rarely are issues such as this settled one way or another on the Forums.

But, after signing off yesterday, it came to me that I should have made one more statement to everyone who reads this thread and my comments.

Sirk, in I believe his first comment on this thread, made a good point concerning the Holy Spirit, rather the "indwelling" Holy Spirit...........I would like to give my thoughts on that.

While I do not hold with Once Saved, Always Saved, IF people were to advance the Christian life/faith growth a bit further to:

Once Sanctified, Assurance of Salvation Achieved, I would be FAR MORE likely to say AMNE!

Reason being, while my assertion does not take away or make void "free will," I believe that the Sanctified believer is FAR, FAR LESS likely to "turn away from the Faith." The "spiritual" believer is far more mature and their faith far more strong than that of the "carnal" believer, thus they are able to endure far more than the carnal believer.

Hope that makes sense, and God bless you all.

 

[Jason0047]

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

Surely Romans 4:5 cannot mean we are reprobate unto every good work.

Titus 1:16 says,
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

If you were to look at Romans 2, you would see that the context he is talking about is the law. For all of Romans 2 deals with the law and Romans 3 deals with how all men have sinned whereby they need a Savior. We know that Romans 4:5 cannot be in support of a belief that says, "I want to live my life and sin as I please and still be saved" (Whether it be a little bit of sin or a lot of sin). Paul asks the question in Romans 6, shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses)? Paul answers that question with, "God forbid." Meaning, you can't do so.

So what is Romans 4:5 talking about? What kind of work is it referring to? It is referring to the work that one would do according to the Law of Moses. For surely it is never wrong to obey the words of Jesus. Nor are we to think we are our own masteres thinking that Jesus' commands were optional. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?

Yes, we are not saved by performing. We are saved by God's grace because if we mess up we repent of our sins and be forgiven of sin and can be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

When a person repents of their sins, then God does the work thru them (See Ezekiel 36:26-27). It is about transformation and yielding to the work God does in you. Salvation is a person. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). Salvation is about Relationship-ism. Salvation is not Antinomianism (i.e. where folks ignore the moral law in the New Testament); Nor is Salvation ..... Works Salvationism. We are saved by God's grace. But if there is no fruit in our lives, then how can we say we abide with God? Paul says examine your own selves and prove that Christ be in you, unless you be reprobates (2 Corinthians 13:5).

In other words, when a person obeys Jesus, they are yielding to the work He wants to do in them. It is not about you trying to save yourself. It is merely choosing to abide with Christ and His good ways versus your own way and sin.

 

[Sirk]

Once Sanctified, Assurance of Salvation Achieved, I would be FAR MORE likely to say AMNE!

This is an osas I can sink my teeth in too! All the wrangling and arguing against Once saved always saved doesn't even begin on solid ground. At its very core it implies that God doesn't keep His promises and that the Holy Spirit can't do the job. It's a nonsensical pointless arguing for the sake of argument.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I had not intended to continue commenting, not because of any anger or such, just because I know that rarely are issues such as this settled one way or another on the Forums.

But, after signing off yesterday, it came to me that I should have made one more statement to everyone who reads this thread and my comments.

Sirk, in I believe his first comment on this thread, made a good point concerning the Holy Spirit, rather the "indwelling" Holy Spirit...........I would like to give my thoughts on that.

While I do not hold with Once Saved, Always Saved, IF people were to advance the Christian life/faith growth a bit further to:

Once Sanctified, Assurance of Salvation Achieved, I would be FAR MORE likely to say AMNE!

Reason being, while my assertion does not take away or make void "free will," I believe that the Sanctified believer is FAR, FAR LESS likely to "turn away from the Faith." The "spiritual" believer is far more mature and their faith far more strong than that of the "carnal" believer, thus they are able to endure far more than the carnal believer.

Hope that makes sense, and God bless you all.

Amen, Brother! That is true salvation. One is not saved by walking an aisle and saying a prayer. That can be done in the passion of the moment without true conviction, or it can be done because intellectual assent to the Gospel takes root, but remains 18" away from true salvation -- the distance from the head to the heart.

We must be drawn by the Holy Spirit. Nothing in us will cause us to seek God. We must be called by the Holy Spirit, and by that I mean we see the truth revealed and are drawn to the compelling love of Christ through that revelation. Our minds must be opened, our spirits must be opened, to receive that truth, and then -- and only then -- is it up to use, through our freely actin will, to believe.

When we do so, we make a confession to Christ that we are indeed a sinner in need of a Savior who is Christ. But there is one more even that must occur before we are truly saved. That is, God the Father must acknowledge that confession as pure, true, and convicting. He makes that acknowledgment by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell us, and Paul said in Ephesians 1:13, 14 that He is our seal toward redemption in that last day, a down payment made by God that binds His promise of salvation, justification, sanctification, and ultimately, redemption.

Once this process has taken place, no one can revoke it, none can break the contract, none can act in violation of it, because the promise comes through God's grace, who will not forsake His own.

I should never have ventured back onto one of these heretical threads. These fools and false teachers raise my ire to the boiling point, and while it may seem good to challenge fools spewing falsehoods, it is useless to do so. It will not convince them, and the attitude that I ultimately show dishonors Christ.

So I'm not going to participate in this nonsense anymore. Let the fools have their false teaching. The rest of us know the truth.

 

[MarcR]

Perhaps the value of the thread is to inspire us to be more vocal when the 'Christian' label is misapplied.