Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"
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VW offered an avenue of reconciliation, I didn't see an acceptance in kind.
Spiritual gifts aren't a guarantee to godliness.
Look at the Corinthian Church full of the gifts but also full of problems such as ...
sectarianism, divisions, strife
sexual misconduct
proud and boasting
taking each other to court
Stumbling the weaker brother by a misuse of their freedom
misusing their gifts when assembled
inconsiderate at the Lord's Supper
and of course 1Cor 13 implies their main lack.
...and that's just in Paul's first letter.
-full of the Holy Ghost but hey...
Even some non believers reflected a better witness than that.
Spiritual gifts aren't a guarantee to godliness.
Look at the Corinthian Church full of the gifts but also full of problems such as ...
sectarianism, divisions, strife
sexual misconduct
proud and boasting
taking each other to court
Stumbling the weaker brother by a misuse of their freedom
misusing their gifts when assembled
inconsiderate at the Lord's Supper
and of course 1Cor 13 implies their main lack.
...and that's just in Paul's first letter.
-full of the Holy Ghost but hey...
Even some non believers reflected a better witness than that.
E
I agree...
there is no guarantie to godliness no matter what persuasion your are though...BUT I did not see where anyone in this thread said that the gifts are some sort of superior Christianity...which would be because no one did say that
Well yeah, look at the Corinthian church...they needed correction because of what they were DOING
Now lets look at so many dried up churches...who need correction because they are doing NOTHING
Where is the balance? It is in doing things in an orderly and biblically based way...which, it seems, is one of the hardest things to do
No doubt, because of all the personalities who have not really submitted to Christ as Lord...whether of the cessationist camps or the whoppee lets feel good camps
Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Corinthian church...how about the Icabod church that refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to fulfill HIS office?
I grew up in a church that refused any move of the Holy Spirit....but it happened anyway...and those who were hungry, were satisfied
I really liked the church I grew up in nonetheless...it was a Brethern church...but not the really strict kind...and I know they have kind of grown with the congregation...what was nice there, was that they really tried to follow the biblical model with elders rather then one single pastor who you were 'stuck' with...
well anyway...I never did hear such arguing back and forth until I started frequenting Christian forums...it seems most are Baptist this or that...never went to a Baptist church ... there was one in the province I grew up in...the pastor there (no elders) was a womanizing creep who even made nasty comments to me when I was a counsellor at a Christian camp (I was 15)...his poor wife ... he was finally shown the door...of course I don't think of all Baptist ministers as being womanizing creeps...so why do so many think anyone who is Charasmatic is off the wall weird?
there is no guarantie to godliness no matter what persuasion your are though...BUT I did not see where anyone in this thread said that the gifts are some sort of superior Christianity...which would be because no one did say that
Well yeah, look at the Corinthian church...they needed correction because of what they were DOING
Now lets look at so many dried up churches...who need correction because they are doing NOTHING
Where is the balance? It is in doing things in an orderly and biblically based way...which, it seems, is one of the hardest things to do
No doubt, because of all the personalities who have not really submitted to Christ as Lord...whether of the cessationist camps or the whoppee lets feel good camps
Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Corinthian church...how about the Icabod church that refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to fulfill HIS office?
I grew up in a church that refused any move of the Holy Spirit....but it happened anyway...and those who were hungry, were satisfied
I really liked the church I grew up in nonetheless...it was a Brethern church...but not the really strict kind...and I know they have kind of grown with the congregation...what was nice there, was that they really tried to follow the biblical model with elders rather then one single pastor who you were 'stuck' with...
well anyway...I never did hear such arguing back and forth until I started frequenting Christian forums...it seems most are Baptist this or that...never went to a Baptist church ... there was one in the province I grew up in...the pastor there (no elders) was a womanizing creep who even made nasty comments to me when I was a counsellor at a Christian camp (I was 15)...his poor wife ... he was finally shown the door...of course I don't think of all Baptist ministers as being womanizing creeps...so why do so many think anyone who is Charasmatic is off the wall weird?
Yeah just like you call me being a liar, when it comes to Hagin and the WOF movement. I lived it for years, you never did and just listened to tapes. So your opinion is better than someone who was immersed in it! Even today we counsel many who have come out form under the doctrine of devils called the Word of Faith movement.
To be clear, In the first 2 years of the revival it was a true move, but late 1997 until 2000, it became a circus show. Many personal friends of my parents went during the last few years and came home shocked by what they witnessed, including the very same stuff I mentioned. They stayed for weeks and attended many services to be sure.
It was evident to many in the AG, that by early 1998 the revival and spirit had lifted and flesh had taken over. The flesh show stopped when Hill left in 2000
My Dad was with AOG Springfield main office and was sent several times to check out BV and each time he reported back to Springfield, That BV needs records of decisions, baptisms, deliverance and healing and above all BV needs financial over-site and immediately. Dad was sent in July of 97 and stayed for a month and saw first hand that financial over-site was needed, because thousands of dollars were pouring in and Kilpatrick, Cooley and Hill would not let anyone know where the money was going.
Dad saw things that made him quit the AG at BV, the most serious to him, was the lack of accountability of the money trail and the refusal of AG HQ to insist money was accounted for.
I find it rather interesting that Kilpatrick, Hill and Cooley all started new works in 2003 and left BV church with over $11M dollars in debt and empty new buildings, etc. That church was never the same and has almost went into bankruptcy.The church is still recovering.
Kilpatrick still meanders through rural AOG churches spreading revival. Hill was promoted in 2014 and Cooley is a low key Pastor/worship leader in TN.
The flesh show was real popeye, and the outpouring in the first 2 years was lifted, becausee of divisions in leadership and money.Dad as well as many other District supes, Evangelists, pastors, and state leaders told the home office AG to follow the money and they refused.
To be clear, In the first 2 years of the revival it was a true move, but late 1997 until 2000, it became a circus show. Many personal friends of my parents went during the last few years and came home shocked by what they witnessed, including the very same stuff I mentioned. They stayed for weeks and attended many services to be sure.
It was evident to many in the AG, that by early 1998 the revival and spirit had lifted and flesh had taken over. The flesh show stopped when Hill left in 2000
My Dad was with AOG Springfield main office and was sent several times to check out BV and each time he reported back to Springfield, That BV needs records of decisions, baptisms, deliverance and healing and above all BV needs financial over-site and immediately. Dad was sent in July of 97 and stayed for a month and saw first hand that financial over-site was needed, because thousands of dollars were pouring in and Kilpatrick, Cooley and Hill would not let anyone know where the money was going.
Dad saw things that made him quit the AG at BV, the most serious to him, was the lack of accountability of the money trail and the refusal of AG HQ to insist money was accounted for.
I find it rather interesting that Kilpatrick, Hill and Cooley all started new works in 2003 and left BV church with over $11M dollars in debt and empty new buildings, etc. That church was never the same and has almost went into bankruptcy.The church is still recovering.
Kilpatrick still meanders through rural AOG churches spreading revival. Hill was promoted in 2014 and Cooley is a low key Pastor/worship leader in TN.
The flesh show was real popeye, and the outpouring in the first 2 years was lifted, becausee of divisions in leadership and money.Dad as well as many other District supes, Evangelists, pastors, and state leaders told the home office AG to follow the money and they refused.
I can't speak for Baptists ministers or whatever. I had gone to this Charismatic Church that was tied in with a house ministry I was helping at and the pastor who was married and had two children ended up in Hollywood with his boyfriend. So this stuff cuts across denominational and non denominational lines.
I just brought up the Charismatic/Corinthian side of things because I believed it was a balanced supplement. Besides, I've experienced more craziness on that side of the aisle.
I just brought up the Charismatic/Corinthian side of things because I believed it was a balanced supplement. Besides, I've experienced more craziness on that side of the aisle.
V
Yeah, here we go with the "signs and wonders" discussion, which is actually a derail of the thread, but it seems unavoidable.
Jesus' sending out of the Twelve and the Seventy was entirely different than our sending out of missionaries, doing street ministry, evangelism, etc. We are known quantity, and so is Christ, whether He is accepted or rejected. That wasn't the case with the sending out of those two groups.
They were given "signs and wonders" to confirm their identity with Christ, and His identity with the Father. The message had to be confirmed other than by words, because anyone could speak words. The proof of the Divine nature of their preaching and teaching was in the power they were allowed to display in Christ.
We do not need those miraculous signs today. We have the testimony of 2,000 years of witnesses to His grace, power, love, and Deity. We can speak of the change made in our lives, and those who knew us before and after our encounter with Christ prove His message that comes through us.
Signs and wonders as practiced and claimed today are unnecessary and largely distractions rather than signposts.
Jesus' sending out of the Twelve and the Seventy was entirely different than our sending out of missionaries, doing street ministry, evangelism, etc. We are known quantity, and so is Christ, whether He is accepted or rejected. That wasn't the case with the sending out of those two groups.
They were given "signs and wonders" to confirm their identity with Christ, and His identity with the Father. The message had to be confirmed other than by words, because anyone could speak words. The proof of the Divine nature of their preaching and teaching was in the power they were allowed to display in Christ.
We do not need those miraculous signs today. We have the testimony of 2,000 years of witnesses to His grace, power, love, and Deity. We can speak of the change made in our lives, and those who knew us before and after our encounter with Christ prove His message that comes through us.
Signs and wonders as practiced and claimed today are unnecessary and largely distractions rather than signposts.
I always thought the gospel was the "good news" about the death, buriel and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preahced unto you which also ye have recieved, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also recieved, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. 1Cor.15:1-4
The gospel stands or falls on its own merits not because of the form of worship an individual takes.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preahced unto you which also ye have recieved, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also recieved, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. 1Cor.15:1-4
The gospel stands or falls on its own merits not because of the form of worship an individual takes.
There's only one Gospel in this age...
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Oops, Chica beat me to it
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Oops, Chica beat me to it
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V
What about the lie Kilpatrick continued for years to promote on his website that police officers brought three drug deals to the revival instead of taking them to jail?
What about the lie that "evangelist" Steve Hill kept telling for years that "Congressmen and senators are weeping at the altar" and will "set Congress ablaze with the Spirit"? At best, an unrealized fantasy. At worst, a pure deception meant to justify stupidity at the front of a church.
What about Hill, whom Kilpatrick dared to call "the catalyst" for the "outpouring" -- ignoring that, if such a thing actually did happen, it would be by the power of the Holy Spirit, not some mere man?
What about the lie that "there is no formal or informal connection between Toronto and Pensacola when the truth was, Toronto "evangelists" gave Brownsville "evangelists" rote-and-ritual "prayers and counsel" to repeat to those at the Pensacola church?
Both Toronto and Brownsville were far more interested in manifestations rather than preaching a Gospel message of Christ Jesus. This is evidence, in my opinion, that they were far more interested in show than they were in actual faith.
[ Oh, please, spare the drama. I wasn't even close to such an accusation.
C'mon Willie. Finish that thought, in a PM if you feel it necessary. I realize I've offended you, and I'm sorry for that. But I don't believe anyone has shown my how I'm wrong.
What about the lie that "evangelist" Steve Hill kept telling for years that "Congressmen and senators are weeping at the altar" and will "set Congress ablaze with the Spirit"? At best, an unrealized fantasy. At worst, a pure deception meant to justify stupidity at the front of a church.
What about Hill, whom Kilpatrick dared to call "the catalyst" for the "outpouring" -- ignoring that, if such a thing actually did happen, it would be by the power of the Holy Spirit, not some mere man?
What about the lie that "there is no formal or informal connection between Toronto and Pensacola when the truth was, Toronto "evangelists" gave Brownsville "evangelists" rote-and-ritual "prayers and counsel" to repeat to those at the Pensacola church?
Both Toronto and Brownsville were far more interested in manifestations rather than preaching a Gospel message of Christ Jesus. This is evidence, in my opinion, that they were far more interested in show than they were in actual faith.
[ Oh, please, spare the drama. I wasn't even close to such an accusation.
C'mon Willie. Finish that thought, in a PM if you feel it necessary. I realize I've offended you, and I'm sorry for that. But I don't believe anyone has shown my how I'm wrong.
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And no one probably ever can... because you seem to want to believe what you "believe."
I told you kind of plainly that you can find out exactly what gospel the Vineyard follows by going online to their site, and reading for yourself. But, this doesn't seem to be good enough for you. You still keep saying you have this need to believe whatever it is you "believe."
I can't do anything more than offer you pages and pages of open, honest, and clearly written statements about the gospel the Vineyard follows, but, still, you seem to choose not to accept that way of learning what gospel they follow.
I told you kind of plainly that you can find out exactly what gospel the Vineyard follows by going online to their site, and reading for yourself. But, this doesn't seem to be good enough for you. You still keep saying you have this need to believe whatever it is you "believe."
I can't do anything more than offer you pages and pages of open, honest, and clearly written statements about the gospel the Vineyard follows, but, still, you seem to choose not to accept that way of learning what gospel they follow.
People can claim aything in the heat of the moment, how many people were followed up on and were still experiencing their buzz. It's also a fact that people came to Pensacola for the show because they didn't have anything better to do.
It was a real carnival atmosphere, all that would have needed was Rodney Brown and his laughing ministry.
It was a real carnival atmosphere, all that would have needed was Rodney Brown and his laughing ministry.
I remember being on a mission trip and ministering to very poverty stricken, Appalachian people in the hills of West Virginia. The living conditions were 3rd world. The people knew that Jesus died for them, they had heard the gospel and believed it, but were weary with life.
A very frustrated & Broken woman confronted our team, with her 5 year old daughter, that had a very serious fever and had developed it 3 days before. They had no way to go to a Doctor and were doing the best they could attempting to help this very sick child.
I heard the Holy Spirit start speaking to me, and it was one 3 word phrase. Demonstrate the kingdom!
I asked if we could pray for the child and we were granted that permission. I laid my hands on that precious child, that was being held in the arms of her Father. I jsut remember praying quietly and waiting on the Holy Spirit. I also remember my hands grew so hot, I mean they felt like fire, I finally was released by the Holy Spirit and softly said, In the name of Jesus, I command this fever to go and instantly that child was made whole! I remember the last instruction of the HOly Spirit to me, was to tell her Momma to fix her something to eat. We had brought food with us and that little girl ate a box of mac and cheese, a big piece of ham, 2 biscuits and and drank 3 glasses of milk. The whole area proclaimed praises to God and the parents later told us she had not eaten anything for 3 days.
This event spread through the hills and people came and God healed ALL for 12 hours and with no altar call, no fancy church, no light show, no P&W music, no preaching, just the Holy Spirit touching lives, because a team of 6 people moved with the compassion of God and without staggering believed the God of Yesterday, is the God of today.
You see VW Jesus could do no sign, wonder or miracle until he was moved with compassion, and that is one of the main reasons the church does not see them today. The other thing you need to know is that Jesus did not do signs,wonders and miracles, because he was the SON of GOD or used his GOD powers to do it. No he did those things because he was anointed with power and the Holy Spirit. It did not stop with the Apostles, it only stops when the Holy Spirit cannot work through the owners of hearts that cannot be move din compassion or do not believe they are anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and through Jesus Christ go around doing good , healing all who are oppressed by the Devil.
Go ahead now and call me a liar and go empty out hospital rooms, graveyards, mental institutions and how I glory in my flesh and all the rest of the excuses you guys like to give to convince yourselves that God is not the same today as he was yesterday.
A very frustrated & Broken woman confronted our team, with her 5 year old daughter, that had a very serious fever and had developed it 3 days before. They had no way to go to a Doctor and were doing the best they could attempting to help this very sick child.
I heard the Holy Spirit start speaking to me, and it was one 3 word phrase. Demonstrate the kingdom!
I asked if we could pray for the child and we were granted that permission. I laid my hands on that precious child, that was being held in the arms of her Father. I jsut remember praying quietly and waiting on the Holy Spirit. I also remember my hands grew so hot, I mean they felt like fire, I finally was released by the Holy Spirit and softly said, In the name of Jesus, I command this fever to go and instantly that child was made whole! I remember the last instruction of the HOly Spirit to me, was to tell her Momma to fix her something to eat. We had brought food with us and that little girl ate a box of mac and cheese, a big piece of ham, 2 biscuits and and drank 3 glasses of milk. The whole area proclaimed praises to God and the parents later told us she had not eaten anything for 3 days.
This event spread through the hills and people came and God healed ALL for 12 hours and with no altar call, no fancy church, no light show, no P&W music, no preaching, just the Holy Spirit touching lives, because a team of 6 people moved with the compassion of God and without staggering believed the God of Yesterday, is the God of today.
You see VW Jesus could do no sign, wonder or miracle until he was moved with compassion, and that is one of the main reasons the church does not see them today. The other thing you need to know is that Jesus did not do signs,wonders and miracles, because he was the SON of GOD or used his GOD powers to do it. No he did those things because he was anointed with power and the Holy Spirit. It did not stop with the Apostles, it only stops when the Holy Spirit cannot work through the owners of hearts that cannot be move din compassion or do not believe they are anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and through Jesus Christ go around doing good , healing all who are oppressed by the Devil.
Go ahead now and call me a liar and go empty out hospital rooms, graveyards, mental institutions and how I glory in my flesh and all the rest of the excuses you guys like to give to convince yourselves that God is not the same today as he was yesterday.
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