When does the rapture occur?

[Pumicestone]

The first outright extermination of Jews occurred in 414 c.e. It would have innumerable successors...
At standard rates of population growth, Diaspora Jewry should now number in the hundreds of millions.
That there are only an estimated 13 million Jews in the world is largely the result of Christian violence and forced conversion.

* Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 "heathens" slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
* Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian.
* until the fall of Akron 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone).
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
The Spanish Inquisition was part of the third largest genocide in history.
The largest genocide being the near extinction of Native Americans (in both North and South America) and the 2nd largest being the Jewish Holocaust in WWII.

* Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864.
Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.

Hitler publicly declared: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, called the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ".
The fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam.
It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps.

In 1994 in Rwanda several hundred thousand civilians were butchered.. For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved.
Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic Church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
On 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Actual, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders.
Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months.
VICTIMS OF THE FAITH - HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN GENOCIDE AND BRUTALITY | Love for Life

And we have not even touched on the myriad atrocities committed in the Middle East by 'Christian' western powerrs over the last century or so !

OK - ALL Christians cannot be blamed for all these horrors.
Nor should all Muslims be castigated for the actions of a tiny minority.
If all Muslims rose up against the west - or even 50% - or 10% - we'd be in real trouble.
That is not the case.
I would welcome a Muslim family as nextdoor neighbours - with open arms !

 

[VCO]

The reason that's ridiculous is that the Lord Jesus isn't born in the last 3 1/2 years of this age.
Nor is He resurrected then. Nor would the mother in Rv 12 symbolize a corporate entity and
the child an individual, or vice versa. It's...........inconsistent.
Also Israel is not the theme of Revelation, so an entire, detailed, heavenly vision need not and is
not devoted to Israel; nor is there one devoted to the generalized, historical fact that Jesus was
descended from Israel, from Jacob. Instead: 'the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy,'
Rv 19:10. And
'The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place;
and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,' 1:1. And
'Write therefore the things which you have seen and the things which are and the things which are about to take place after these things,' 1:19.
The testimony of Jesus is His Body. His saints. His people. His believers. His churches. His slaves and witnesses. His Bride, army, kingdom, and New Jerusalem. His firstfruits, martyrs, harvest. His woman and Her man-child. Also His particular two witnesses. This is the New Testament subject of Revelation. The things which John has seen are the contemporary Christ. The High Priest Christ, in resurrection and ascension and walking in the midst of His churches. For the entirety of this age. Until He finishes producing a crop to harvest. More particularly a remnant as firstfruits, to God and to the Lamb. To 'bring Him back.' To give His the base and the 'finished product,' the qualified co-kings, to terminate this age, destroy the Antichrist, rescue the Jews, and bring in His (and their) direct Rule for 1000 years. John sees the Lion Lamb on the throne. And opening the scroll of God's arrangement. With its 7 seals. To work out His purpose. Seen in His prophecy in Mt 16:18,
'I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.'
That is the purpose of the church age. That is the finished product throughout and in Revelation. That is also still the process
being wound-up in Revelation. And that is the New Jerusalem. God, Jesus, and John neither need to, nor do, digress to cover OT history (although Rev is full of quotations of God's divine economy from the OT) or Gospel history as complete 'chapters' in this book.



And that is the point.
Any interpretation, that purports to define or explain or interpret or expound anything in Revelation, needs to cover what exactly the text of Revelation says. It's one thing to flatly guess or on first glance, think, that Rv 12's woman is Israel, or Mary, and her man-child is the Lord Jesus personally, individually. It's another thing to fill in the details. Like Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, Dallas Seminary, etc, do not do in this case. What are the time, times, and half a time? The last 3 1/2 years.
What are the 1260 days? 1260 literal days (= 3 1/2 years). What are the 42 months? 42 literal months. What is the wilderness? Somewhere on earth where the left-behind Christians are safe and relatively safe from the dragon and Antichrist.
Is it important to know where? Not really. What does the dragon turn to concentrate on? The rest of the woman's seed.
Representing believers within Antichrist's grasp. To behead. And also the Jews and nation of Israel. For him to persecute and kill.

If you two are discussing Rev. 12:4-6: I agree whole heartedly that the WOMAN is Israel and the man child She Brought forth is Jesus Christ.


Revelation 12:4-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] His tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth. And the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth he might devour her child.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But she gave birth to a Son—a male who is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter—and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, to be fed there for 1,260 days.

The casting down of a third of the stars out of the sky seemed to imply satanic power which extended to the heavens and the earth. Satan was seen here to extend his power over those who opposed him spiritually or politically. The dragon's attempt to devour the newborn Child (12:4) seemed to point to Satan's attempts to destroy the Infant Jesus. Satanic opposition to Israel and especially to the messianic line is clear in both Testaments.
12:5-6. When the Child—described as a Son, a male Child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter—was born, He was snatched up to God and to His throne. The Child obviously is Jesus Christ (Ps. 2:9; Rev. 19:15). Alford states that "the Man-Child is the Lord Jesus Christ, and none other" (The Greek Testament, 4:668). The catching up of the Child referred to the Ascension, not to the later Rapture of the church though the same word for "snatched up" is used of the Rapture (1 Thes. 4:17; cf. Acts 8:39; 2 Cor. 12:2-4). The Rapture of the church would not constitute a deliverance of the Man-Child from Satan.
The deliverance itself took place when the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, and she was preserved for 1,260 days, which was three and one-half years or 42 months of 30 days each. Matthew (24:16) referred to the flight of Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (cf. Mark 13:14). References to both desert and mountains are not a contradiction as both were wilderness areas. In her desert hideout Israel was cared for perhaps as miraculously as Israel was in her wilderness journey from Egypt to the Promised Land.
The time period was 1,260 days, later described as "a time, times, and half a time" (cf. comments on Rev. 12:14).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

12:4 a third of the stars of heaven. Satan’s original rebellion (cf. Isa. 14:12ff.; Ezek. 28:11ff.) resulted in one-third of the angelic host joining his insurrection and becoming demons. to devour her Child. Unable to prevent the Virgin Birth of Christ, Satan tried to kill the child in a general massacre of male children commanded by Herod (Matt. 2:13-18; cf. Luke 4:28, 29).
12:5 a male Child. Jesus Christ in His Incarnation was of Jewish descent (Matt. 1:1; 2 Tim. 2:8). Despite Satan’s efforts to destroy Israel and the messianic line, Jesus’ birth took place as predicted by the prophets (cf. Isa. 7:14; 9:6; Mic. 5:2). rod of iron. This describes Jesus’ coronation as King over the nations of the world (cf. 11:15; 19:15; Ps. 2:6-9). her Child was caught up to God. Christ’s Ascension is in view (Acts 1:9; 2:33; Heb. 1:1-3; 12:2).
12:6 wilderness. God will protect Israel from Satan by hiding her in the wilderness, perhaps in the regions of Moab, Ammon, and Edom, east of Palestine. Interestingly, those countries will be specifically spared from the Antichrist’s attack against the Holy Land (cf. Dan. 11:41). one thousand two hundred and sixty days. At the mid-point of the Tribulation, the Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, puts a stop to temple worship, sets up the abomination of desolation (Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15), and devastates Jerusalem (11:2). At that time, many Jews flee for their lives (Matt. 24:16ff.). God will preserve them during the last 1,260 days (forty-two months; three and one-half years) constituting the Great Tribulation. See notes on 3:10; 6:1, 9.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

 

[VCO]

5 wise virgins
1 thes 4
elijah
enoch
John

144k are either raptured or martyred

NEITHER they are sealed from harm in their mortal bodies to repopulate Israel, because the rest of the Jews and Gentile Believers during Tribulation were beheaded.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Zechariah 14:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

See the 144,000 are sealed from harm and protected by GOD in the Wilderness in the Valley He Created when the Mount of Olives split.

Matthew 24:15-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!

 

[MarcR]

I believe that the rapture and the second coming are separate events; and that the rapture must occur sometime before the 7th seal is opened; and likely after the sixth seal is opened.

I will present my understanding enclosed in [braces] between the relevant Scripture.

If, as I believe, there will indeed be a rapture; the best case for it is:

1 Th 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[IMO them which are asleep represent those between physical death and the resurrection.]

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[ shall not prevent means shall not come before]

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

[the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα translated as caught up has the same definition as the English word 'rapture'. We are to meet the Lord in the air, NOT ON THE GROUND]



Jer 30:3-11
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

[The Hebrew word וְ֠שַׁבְתִּי translated as 'that I will bring again' means 'that I will: turn back, undo, or reverse'. When the people of the Southern Kingdom (Judea) were released from their 70 year captivity by Cyrus in about 538 B.C.; the ten tribes of the northern kingdom were NOT INCLIDED; therefore this was still a future event, since the Southern Kingdom was returned to captivity in 70 A.D, until 5/15/1948 A.D. (See Is 66:8)]

4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

[This is subsequent to the rebirth of Israel as a political entity. This must be the great tribulation. The fact that it is called Jacob's trouble, strongly suggests (though admittedly inconclusively) that the Church is absent]

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

[and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. IMO this refers to Jesus (See Zec 12:10-13:2).]

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
KJV

Lk 21:7-33

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name,
saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

[IMO this speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and Vespasian]

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[this indicates that the times of the Gentiles lasted from 70 AD until 6/7/1967 A.D. The implication is that since 6/7/1967, God's primary focus has shifted from the Gentile nations back to national Israel]

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

[when two lunar eclipses in a calendar year each fall on one of the appointed times of Lev 23 on the Hebrew calendar for 2 successive years; the entire 2 year event is called a tetrad. Tetrads are very rare and have historically always coincided with major events in Jewish history. There was one in 69-70 A.D. which marked the destruction of the temple and the Diaspora. The next one was in 1477-1478 which marked the onset of the Spanish Inquisition. The next was in 1936-37 which marked the onset of Hitler's purge of the Jews in Europe. The next was in 1947-48 and marked the rebirth of Israel as a nation. The next was in 1966-67 and marked the return of the Old City of Jerusalem to Jewish control-- ending the times of the Gentiles. There is one in progress in 2014-2015 A.D. The current one is unique in that both eclipses in both years were or will be accompanied by 'blood red moons; and both eclipses this year are preceded by solar eclipses on the first day of their respective months]

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
KJV

Rv 6:12-7:9

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

[After the sixth seal is opened and before the seventh is opened, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne This suggests a rapture to me!]

 

[flob]

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
Satanic opposition to Israel and especially to the messianic line is clear in both Testaments.

Lol (re the Dallas method of evidence).
So too Satanic opposition to the church is clear.......................in both Testaments.
Acts 4:26-31; Gal 4:28-29; 2 Cor 11:3; etc.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
The Rapture of the church would not constitute a deliverance of the Man-Child from Satan.

The Man-Child is not the church. The Man-child is the overcoming members of the church.
To the messenger of the church in Thyatira write...He who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with an iron rod... Rv 2:18, 26-27.
A man-child...her child was raptured to God and to His throne...And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying...the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him...Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth... Rv 12:5, 10-13.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
The Rapture of the church would not constitute a deliverance of the Man-Child from Satan.

Likewise the Ascension of Christ would not constitute a deliverance of the man-child from Satan.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
The catching up of the Child referred to the Ascension.
MacArthur Bible Commentary.
her Child was caught up to God. Christ’s Ascension is in view

To the contrary: Jesus Christ when He ascended was 33 years old.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
The Child obviously is Jesus Christ (Ps. 2:9; Rev. 19:15).

To the contrary: the child is obviously not the individual, Jesus Christ.
It's obviously His co-kings (Rv 2:26-27; 3:21; 12:11; 17:14; 19:14).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.
The deliverance itself took place when the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, and she was preserved for 1,260 days, which was three and one-half years or 42 months of 30 days each. Matthew (24:16) referred to the flight of Israel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation (cf. Mark 13:14).

Strikingly, this is intelligent interpretation by Dallas.
The only 'bump in the road' for them is that the woman in Rv 12 survives the Great Tribulation, whereas only 1/3 of Israel does, Zech 13:8-9.

MacArthur Bible Commentary.
The third of the stars of heaven. Satan’s original rebellion (cf. Isa. 14:12ff.; Ezek. 28:11ff.) resulted in one-third of the angelic host his insurrection and becoming demons.

Unlike Dallas, MacArthur here correctly understands Rv 12:4's third part of the stars of heaven, to refer to Satan's rebellion.
But contrary to MacArthur, fallen angels do not become demons. Fallen angels remain fallen angels, and demons are fallen and disembodied preAdamic beings. They are allied, but they are different beings. Lk 8:24; etc.

MacArthur Bible Commentary.
one thousand two hundred and sixty days. At the mid-point of the Tribulation, the Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, puts a stop to temple worship, sets up the abomination of desolation (Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15),

To the contrary, at the beginning of the Tribulation, the Antichrist does this. The Tribulation is not 7 years long. It is 3 1/2.
Dan 9:27; Mt 24:15; Rv 12:5-9; 17--13:1.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
At that time, many Jews flee for their lives (Matt. 24:16ff.). God will preserve them during the last 1,260 days (forty-two months; three and one-half years) constituting the Great Tribulation.

MacArthur here is correct that the Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.
So he employs two terms: 'Tribulation' = 7 years. And 'Great Tribulation' = 3 1/2 years. This is the first time I've heard that one. To the contrary of MacArthur, the Great Tribulation is the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. In regard to Israel, '70 sevens [490 years] are apportioned for [Daniel's] people...' The last seven begins when 'he [the 7th king of Rv 17:10] will make a firm covenant with the many for one seven.' Which he breaks after 3 1/2 years. In other words, for the first 3 1/2 years, Israel feels secure. Dan 9:24-27.
MacArthur is correct that many Jews/Israelis flee. But more do not.
In contrast, all the woman in Rv 12 survives.

 

[MarcR]

I apologize for posting post #2704 on two different threads. I had intended to post it here and was briefly confused by two similar titles.

 

[VCO]

Lol (re the Dallas method of evidence).
So too Satanic opposition to the church is clear.......................in both Testaments.
Acts 4:26-31; Gal 4:28-29; 2 Cor 11:3; etc.



The Man-Child is not the church. The Man-child is the overcoming members of the church.
To the messenger of the church in Thyatira write...He who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with an iron rod... Rv 2:18, 26-27.
A man-child...her child was raptured to God and to His throne...And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying...the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him...Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth... Rv 12:5, 10-13.



Likewise the Ascension of Christ would not constitute a deliverance of the man-child from Satan.



To the contrary: Jesus Christ when He ascended was 33 years old.



To the contrary: the child is obviously not the individual, Jesus Christ.
It's obviously His co-kings (Rv 2:26-27; 3:21; 12:11; 17:14; 19:14).



Strikingly, this is intelligent interpretation by Dallas.
The only 'bump in the road' for them is that the woman in Rv 12 survives the Great Tribulation, whereas only 1/3 of Israel does, Zech 13:8-9.



Unlike Dallas, MacArthur here correctly understands Rv 12:4's third part of the stars of heaven, to refer to Satan's rebellion.
But contrary to MacArthur, fallen angels do not become demons. Fallen angels remain fallen angels, and demons are fallen and disembodied preAdamic beings. They are allied, but they are different beings. Lk 8:24; etc.



To the contrary, at the beginning of the Tribulation, the Antichrist does this. The Tribulation is not 7 years long. It is 3 1/2.
Dan 9:27; Mt 24:15; Rv 12:5-9; 17--13:1.



MacArthur here is correct that the Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.
So he employs two terms: 'Tribulation' = 7 years. And 'Great Tribulation' = 3 1/2 years. This is the first time I've heard that one. To the contrary of MacArthur, the Great Tribulation is the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. In regard to Israel, '70 sevens [490 years] are apportioned for [Daniel's] people...' The last seven begins when 'he [the 7th king of Rv 17:10] will make a firm covenant with the many for one seven.' Which he breaks after 3 1/2 years. In other words, for the first 3 1/2 years, Israel feels secure. Dan 9:24-27.
MacArthur is correct that many Jews/Israelis flee. But more do not.
In contrast, all the woman in Rv 12 survives.

So you do not listen or read with understanding what I said. What else is new?

I said the man child is Jesus Christ Himself, who came from the woman, the Nation Israel.

Believe whatever you want about the Rapture, and I will believe what the Scriptures actually say, as confirmed in my heart by the Holy Spirit.

You will be welcome to come point out whatever mistakes I made in interpretation WHEN we get to heaven. Until then I will believe in a pre-trib Calling Out of the Bride, and I will believe the 70th Week of Daniel, Jacobs Troubles, Antichrist's rule and Peace Treaty with Israel, the Great Tribulation, and the Wedding of the Lamb, ARE ALL THE SAME WEEK OF YEARS.

 

[VCO]

The first outright extermination of Jews occurred in 414 c.e. It would have innumerable successors...
At standard rates of population growth, Diaspora Jewry should now number in the hundreds of millions.
That there are only an estimated 13 million Jews in the world is largely the result of Christian violence and forced conversion.

* Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 "heathens" slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
* Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian.
* until the fall of Akron 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone).
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
The Spanish Inquisition was part of the third largest genocide in history.
The largest genocide being the near extinction of Native Americans (in both North and South America) and the 2nd largest being the Jewish Holocaust in WWII.

* Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864.
Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.

Hitler publicly declared: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, called the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ".
The fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam.
It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps.

In 1994 in Rwanda several hundred thousand civilians were butchered.. For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved.
Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic Church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
On 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Actual, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders.
Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months.
VICTIMS OF THE FAITH - HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN GENOCIDE AND BRUTALITY | Love for Life

And we have not even touched on the myriad atrocities committed in the Middle East by 'Christian' western powerrs over the last century or so !

OK - ALL Christians cannot be blamed for all these horrors.
Nor should all Muslims be castigated for the actions of a tiny minority.
If all Muslims rose up against the west - or even 50% - or 10% - we'd be in real trouble.
That is not the case.
I would welcome a Muslim family as nextdoor neighbours - with open arms !

Glad you have chosen to show your true colors early. Bye Bye.

 

[popeye]

I apologize for posting post #2704 on two different threads. I had intended to post it here and was briefly confused by two similar titles.

Your posts are always reflective of a man of God with his eyes open.

 

[popeye]

You wedding argument bores me because it is based on pure speculation. To invent a whole new additional and pre-trib Return of Christ because of a wedding parable and discard all the clear teachings relative to timing blows my mind. You are trying to shoot holes in the Word of God with a gun loaded with blanks. The argument has no merit.

Mat 13;10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Hello? You were saying?

 

[flob]

So you do not listen or read with understanding what I said. What else is new?

To the contrary, I understood the one sentence which you wrote to me.
And, no offense whatsoever intended, I disagreed with you.
No offense intended by disagreeing with you. I simply disagreed with you.

Then you posted 3 verses of Scripture. I must agree with every Scripture.
And I do. May the Lord have mercy on me to trust and obey Him.

Lastly the bulk of your post you copied out two other commentators on Scripture.
So I took the liberty of reading, understanding, and analyzing what they said,
and then the further liberty of agreeing in part and disagreeing in part with them
in writing.

 

[popeye]

NEITHER they are sealed from harm in their mortal bodies to repopulate Israel, because the rest of the Jews and Gentile Believers during Tribulation were beheaded.

Revelation 7:2-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Zechariah 14:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

See the 144,000 are sealed from harm and protected by GOD in the Wilderness in the Valley He Created when the Mount of Olives split.

Matthew 24:15-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!

Nope,I disagree.
Rev 14;14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

They are the 1st fruit JEWS.
here is the final Jewish harvest,then the wrath commes
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

See that? the harvest is RIPE.

Ok, now tie it together.

144k are firstfruits.....why?
1st miracle of jesus.........you saved the best for last.......Why?
If the 144k are 1st fruits,then the main harvest (of Jews)is next.......this is unavoidable.

Note that IMMEDIATELY after this harvest,the ultimate JUDGEMENT, and litteral squashing of earth's inhabitants on earth;
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles

They do not remain for the end of the GT.....they are in fact harvested

 

[PlainWord]

under this mindset,jesus' first miracle is a random meaning-less flaunting and waste of power.

No, his miracle meant what it meant, that He is God, can do anything, and can work miracles in the lives of those who have faith in Him. It didn't mean He was going to add an earlier return and Rapture His believers off the planet thereby protecting them from Satanic persecution because he turned water into wine.

He didn't intervene with His disciples when they were killed and He isn't going to intervene with us. To teach that He does, gives Christians a false sense of security and lack of urgency to fight back against the sin in this world thinking, "Oh we are going to be raptured so I don't have to worry about a few thousand Christians in Syria getting beheaded since it isn't going to happen to me."

It could and will happen here if these nut jobs are allowed to grow and expand and if they go global which is their desire.

 

[PlainWord]

Ask any Messianic Jew if he is bored by it. It excites me too. So why would going to the Wedding of the Lamb bore you?

I'm bored with you guys making the argument that a wedding parable means a Pre-trib Rapture. It doesn't. If anything it disproves it. You are trying to make the case that under Jewish Wedding tradition, the Groom brings the Bride back to His house after the Wedding. But, was that really the point Christ was making? If you actually read it and study it you see that the point He was making is to be prepared for a longer wait than expected because we do not know when He will return. It had nothing to do with where the Post Wedding Bridal Suite is located but rather that the Wedding wasn't going to get started as quickly as half the Bridesmaids thought.

Think of it this way, you guys think there is a pre-Trib rapture at 8PM, but Christ tells us it doesn't start until after there is a big fight in front of the Wedding Chapel so the wedding isn't going to take place until 1130 PM. But you guys only brought enough oil to make it to 8 or 830. So it is the Pre-tribber without enough oil. Meanwhile we (post-tribbers) knew there was going to be trouble out in front of the Wedding Chapel so we brought some extra oil (and guns if we are smart) along just in case the Groom was delayed getting through the mob. We had enough oil, you didn't. That is the lesson Christ was trying to teach in this parable.

Be prepared, be patient, persevere. Pre-trib requires none of those.

 

[PlainWord]

The first outright extermination of Jews occurred in 414 c.e. It would have innumerable successors...
At standard rates of population growth, Diaspora Jewry should now number in the hundreds of millions.
That there are only an estimated 13 million Jews in the world is largely the result of Christian violence and forced conversion.

* Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 "heathens" slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
* Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian.
* until the fall of Akron 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone).
Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
The Spanish Inquisition was part of the third largest genocide in history.
The largest genocide being the near extinction of Native Americans (in both North and South America) and the 2nd largest being the Jewish Holocaust in WWII.

* Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864.
Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.

Hitler publicly declared: "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity ... in fact our movement is Christian."

Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, called the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ".
The fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam.
It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps.

In 1994 in Rwanda several hundred thousand civilians were butchered.. For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved.
Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic Church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
On 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Actual, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders.
Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months.
VICTIMS OF THE FAITH - HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN GENOCIDE AND BRUTALITY | Love for Life

And we have not even touched on the myriad atrocities committed in the Middle East by 'Christian' western powerrs over the last century or so !

OK - ALL Christians cannot be blamed for all these horrors.
Nor should all Muslims be castigated for the actions of a tiny minority.
If all Muslims rose up against the west - or even 50% - or 10% - we'd be in real trouble.
That is not the case.
I would welcome a Muslim family as nextdoor neighbours - with open arms !

It will be Islamic extremists responsible for the next and greatest genocide of Christians the world has ever seen. This isn't speculation, it is Biblical certainty. It is called, the Great Tribulation, not because it's a wonderful event but because the horror of it exceeds anything the planet has ever witnessed. Very few Christians survive. Then when Christ returns, He takes revenge:

Isa 24:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants,
Because they have transgressed the laws,
Changed the ordinance,
Broken the everlasting covenant.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,
And those who dwell in it are desolate.
Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned,
And few men are left.

 

[PlainWord]

Mat 13;10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Hello? You were saying?

I am saying you don't understand the mysteries. You don't understand the parable of the 10 virgins and you don't understand the wheat and tares even though they have been explained to you. You have fallen for an invented Pre-Trib Rapture ignoring the clear teachings of the Bible.

Christ is not the author of confusion. He tells us we will through much tribulation enter the Kingdom of God yet you see a Hall Pass. Christ tells us that the "days must be shortened for the ELECT's sake or no flesh will be left alive." That's how bad Satan's Trib will be. You don't even think Satan is behind it, rather you think God is killing His own people. Christ tells us He comes after the Tribulation, you see Him coming before but you don't count it because He doesn't touch the ground. I can go on and on but why bother, you won't get anything I am telling you.

The funny thing is I used to think exactly as most of you. The delusion is so strong that you cannot break it on your own. It took me lots of prayer and study and opening of my mind to the possibility that I was wrong and that a near opposite teaching to what I had believed was the real truth. Once it hit me, it hit like a ton of bricks.

 

[Pumicestone]

.... we have not even touched on the myriad atrocities committed in the Middle East by 'Christian' western powers over the last century or so !

OK - ALL Christians cannot be blamed for all these horrors.
Nor should all Muslims be castigated for the actions of a tiny minority.
If all Muslims rose up against the west - or even 50% - or 10% - we'd be in real trouble.
That is not the case.
I would welcome a Muslim family as next-door neighbours - with open arms !

Glad you have chosen to show your true colors early. Bye Bye.

No worries VCO.
Might have been interesting to hear your objections though.
I love being proven wrong. It is a learning process.

But the humble Muslim working to feed his family in Iran, Iraq or Indonesia .... is as much my brother as the bloke down the road - or any American.

Strangely, in his way, I think Jesus said pretty much the same thing.

 

[PlainWord]

No worries VCO.
Might have been interesting to hear your objections though.
I love being proven wrong. It is a learning process.

But the humble Muslim working to feed his family in Iran, Iraq or Indonesia .... is as much my brother as the bloke down the road - or any American.

Strangely, in his way, I think Jesus said pretty much the same thing.

Muslims need our prayer because they are specifically being called out for the Lake of Fire. They have violated the first and most important of all commandments by their rejection of the true God and His Son and the adoption of their false god and prophet. If they do not repent and come to Christ, their fate is sealed.

This is the specific promise to those who follow Islam and worship Allah:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Paul makes a strong comparison between the Jew and Muslim here in Gal 4:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, [SUP]24 [/SUP]which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— [SUP]25 [/SUP]for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— [SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” [SUP]31 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

This is no joke, yes we are to love them and try to convert them but we should not kid ourselves into thinking that their religion is just another harmless pagan religion. It is the MOTHER of all False Religions and an Abomination to God. Even the Muslims not bent on killing Jews and Christians are facing the ultimate punishment because of who and how they worship.

 

[Pumicestone]

It will be Islamic extremists responsible for the next and greatest genocide of Christians the world has ever seen.
This isn't speculation, it is Biblical certainty.

Fear breeds hatred. Hatred breeds irrational thought.

I'm afraid you'll have to show me, very clearly, where this "Biblical certainty" specifically identifies Islam
in connection with the "Great Tribulation" (or with anything else, for that matter).

 

[Pumicestone]

Sorry PlainWord, no matter how hard I try, I cannot see Islam clearly identified in the texts you have kindly cited.

As much as we might wish it were so - it simply isn't there.