When does the rapture occur?

[VCO]

Sorry i haven't read all the posts,
But i'm guessing that the first resurrection a) The dead in Christ in 1 Thes 4:16, b)Then those that are alive 1 Thes 4:17 c) Then the martyred tribulation saints.
If that's right (above a,b,c.) it all happens at the same time. I agree that the wedding is in Heaven and the resurrection of the unrighteous is after the thousand years.
But The TIME of Trouble
. . .

To be honest with you, I have grown weary do debated this topic. So if I reply to a post, it will probably be very brief.

NO WHERE, in the Bible does it say it happens at the same time. That is an assumption on your part.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

NOTICE, all Trinitarians, that verse 14 validates that JESUS is GOD in the flesh, and that our human spirit do go to heaven the moment we die. There is a definate seperation between the resurrections of the dead and the changing of the body of of the remaining Christians to go up to meet Jesus in the air. Sure that mostly likely happens back to back very rapidly, but the Tribulation saint, do not live again until Rev. 20:4

Revelation 20:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: {<--NOW that is the resurrected Assembly that HE has built of the O.T. and the N.T. Saints in their heavenly positions already.} and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded {Tribulation Saints} for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And if you read verses 1-3, that is immidiately after the Second Coming. Sorry I see pre-Trib all the way.

 

[VCO]

Sorry, I typed that above posts when I was very tired. Please excuse the typos.

 

[PlainWord]

I'm out of Las Vegas.
The entire world vacations here....

....maybe the Rapture will happen before Sin City gives that flu bug to the rest of the world?

LOL. I live in Henderson neighbor.

 

[PlainWord]

Parable of the 10 virgins;
10 believers waiting for their king.
5 had an abundance of oil,5 had barely enough for the present moment.
the king was delayed and all 10 went to sleep
at midnight they all were told he is coming and go out to meet him

now,at this point THE OIL IS THE DISENFRANCHISING ISSUE.;
The foolish realized they had zero oil,and asked in a panic for the oil of the wise.
The wise said "go fly a kite" go get your own oil.
The foolish took off,and the king suddenly showed up and took the wise to heaven,through a door,and slamed the door shut.
The foolish found the door alright,but were denied entry. (disenfranchised)

They had virginity,they had oil,they were waiting,but they were shut out.

The whole thing centers on the AMOUNT OF OIL,IN POSSESION AT A CERTAIN TIME.

this is the qualifier. Period.

This is actually one of your better posts. I agree 100% with you. The message is not only to "watch" but to be "prepared." You are stressing the "Be Prepared" message since both groups were "watching." If we relate this to the Coming of Jesus, both pre and post tribbers are watching but which of us is prepared? Which of us has prepared for the longer wait???

If we take the spiritual interpretation whereby the "oil" is the "Holy Spirit" then the 5 virgins who had more of the Holy Spirit were admitted to the Wedding/Kingdom.

 

[GaryA]

Do you understand?

Yes - I understand that it does not say:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to tribulation, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rather - what it actually says is:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


I understand that - according to the event-based definitions of the Bible - the Tribulation and the Wrath are two different things - and that the Tribulation ends before the Wrath of God begins.

 

[PlainWord]

To be honest with you, I have grown weary do debated this topic. So if I reply to a post, it will probably be very brief.

NO WHERE, in the Bible does it say it happens at the same time. That is an assumption on your part.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

NOTICE, all Trinitarians, that verse 14 validates that JESUS is GOD in the flesh, and that our human spirit do go to heaven the moment we die. There is a definate seperation between the resurrections of the dead and the changing of the body of of the remaining Christians to go up to meet Jesus in the air. Sure that mostly likely happens back to back very rapidly, but the Tribulation saint, do not live again until Rev. 20:4

Revelation 20:4 (ASV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: {<--NOW that is the resurrected Assembly that HE has built of the O.T. and the N.T. Saints in their heavenly positions already.} and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded {Tribulation Saints} for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And if you read verses 1-3, that is immidiately after the Second Coming. Sorry I see pre-Trib all the way.

A couple of things to comment on here. Yes we have the lesson of the Trinity but we also have infinite examples of each member of the Trinity carrying out different roles independently. We do not see the word, "God or Father" used interchangeably with "Jesus, Christ, or Son of Man" or with the "Holy Spirit." In other words, when Christ was crucified, we do not see any of the writers of the Gospel switch between Christ and God. None of them put the Father on the Cross and none put the Holy Spirit on the Cross. Each member of the Trinity is called out by name when they are mentioned and they are never interchanged although we are frequently reminded that they collectively are all ONE GOD. That said, you can not transpose the word "GOD" in 1 Thes 4:14 into "JESUS." These are two separate events. Both the Lamb and God the Father are mentioned separately throughout Rev 20-22.

Rev 20:4-6 would seem to be saying that Christ rules only with the Tribulation Saints (those beheaded) and that the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. If that's the case, then you have Christ returning with a select group while everyone else remains in heaven. The idea of a select group i.e., the martyred of the GT, sorta has a similar connotation to an ELECT group, does it not? It is the ELECT gathered by Christ.

I see significant differences in descriptions between the Return of Christ and the Return of God. Out of necessity, both return to earth certainly by the time of the new earth because both are said to be dwelling with us in the new city on the new earth. So both Father and Son are returning. The question I have is do they return together or at different times? The evidence suggests that the Father returns before the Son which contradicts everything all of us have been taught and believe. However, if you align scripture as I did a few posts back it does appear to support this notion. It also supports the oft repeated phrase, "Sit at my right hand until I have made your enemies your footstool." This phrase appears 6 times in the Bible so it must have importance and it must be a concrete fact.

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Matthew 22:44
‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?

Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

I have always taken this to mean that God will pour out His wrath before Christ is to return. I still do but let's look at the original psalm by David in full context because it is then referenced 5 times later.

110 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.



In 2 Thes 1 Paul introduces the concept of a "rest" being given to those suffering when Christ is revealed in heaven. The "rest" the persecuted receive is with "us" (meaning Paul and others). Where are they resting?

 

[PlainWord]

Yes - I understand that it does not say:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to tribulation, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rather - what it actually says is:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


I understand that - according to the event-based definitions of the Bible - the Tribulation and the Wrath are two different things - and that the Tribulation ends before the Wrath of God begins.

This clear and concise teaching is lost on the Pre-Tribber. They need to equate the Tribulation to the Wrath of God or they lose the one requirement they have to suggest we cannot be on earth during the Tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

Yes I know this, but my point was that all the vials of God's wrath do not get poured out before the Lords return and Armageddon. As you can see by even the passage on this event that the battle of Armageddon is within the vials of God's wrath.

And this is one of the things that I was initially trying to point out... ( post #3104 )

 

[GaryA]

I already researched it.

You haven't or you would not have shot those blanks .

Hint;look up recieving the HS as a second work,and how those that asked got it.

This is what is wrong with the "discussion" on this thread - some folks just want to "shoot others down", instead of actually having a 'discussion'.

I personally believe that 'discussion' is better than 'debate'...

"Why don't we keep our pistols in our our holsters and have a real discussion instead...?"

Can you do that?

 

[GaryA]

These are two separate events.

...

The question I have is do they return together or at different times?

...

It also supports the oft repeated phrase, "Sit at my right hand until I have made your enemies your footstool."

Daniel 7:

[SUP]13[/SUP] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [SUP]14[/SUP] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


I believe that the phrase 'Ancient of days' refers specifically to the Father.

I believe that "they come together" at the Second Coming of Christ. If they did not, "sit at my right hand" would cease...

I believe that the 'scene' depicted in verses 13-14 above is not in [ the 3rd ] heaven; rather, it is "above the earth" at the Second Coming of Christ - which is the time that [ what is described in verse 14 ] takes place.

 

[popeye]

This is what is wrong with the "discussion" on this thread - some folks just want to "shoot others down", instead of actually having a 'discussion'.

I personally believe that 'discussion' is better than 'debate'...

"Why don't we keep our pistols in our our holsters and have a real discussion instead...?"

Can you do that?

how about "flailing the air"

Or

"you are preaching to the chior"

Or

some other phrase that desccribes an ignorant post that someone wants another to research?

You are ascribing offence to some really mild stuff.
IOW A RABBIT TRAIL FRIEND

 

[popeye]

This is actually one of your better posts. I agree 100% with you. The message is not only to "watch" but to be "prepared." You are stressing the "Be Prepared" message since both groups were "watching." If we relate this to the Coming of Jesus, both pre and post tribbers are watching but which of us is prepared? Which of us has prepared for the longer wait???

If we take the spiritual interpretation whereby the "oil" is the "Holy Spirit" then the 5 virgins who had more of the Holy Spirit were admitted to the Wedding/Kingdom.

both pre and post tribbers are watching

This is rediculous.
Your entire doctrine is framed around an impossible (in your mind) return at anytime.

If we take the spiritual interpretation whereby the "oil" is the "Holy Spirit" then the 5 virgins who had more of the Holy Spirit were admitted to the Wedding/Kingdom.

Then make it into something else and test fit it in for us.
I will wait.

 

[popeye]

The parable of the 10 virgins is wrecking one doctrine after another,and what we are seeing is the creative butchering of God's word.

It is as if "you better not read for meaning "

Very dangerous my freinds.

It is comical how oil can not be oil,and virgin can not be virgin,timing can not be timing,and watching is actually "no watching"

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 20:

[SUP]4[/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [SUP]5[/SUP] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6[/SUP] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Clearly, all who "hath part in the first resurrection" reign with Christ for 1000 years. ( verse 6 )

The question is - "who all" does that include?

I suggest that - according to the 'grammar of the language', the phrase "and I saw the souls of them..." does not necessarily mean that they were the only ones present - only that John saw them there. Others could have also been present in the scene. Therefore, it does leave open the possibility that [ even as much as ] "all of the saved" at that point in time could be included.

This verse suggests that there are others present in the scene:


2 Timothy 2:

[SUP]12[/SUP] If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[GaryA]

how about "flailing the air"

Or

"you are preaching to the chior"

Or

some other phrase that desccribes an ignorant post that someone wants another to research?

You are ascribing offence to some really mild stuff.
IOW A RABBIT TRAIL FRIEND

I said aboslutely nothing whatsoever about researching anything...

You are completely missing the point that I was trying to make -- which is:

~ You say to someone else that it is rediculous to assign 'salvation' to 'oil'...

~ Yet - you yourself wish to assign 'Holy Spirit' to 'oil'...

~ Which is just as rediculous based on the statements you made about 'salvation' and 'oil'.

My substitution of 'Holy Spirit' for 'salvation' in the quotes was intended to illustrate that -- if the same measure of what your comments were "pointing out" about 'salvation' and 'oil' were to be applied to 'Holy Spirit' and 'oil' - you get the same result...

Based on what you said about 'salvation' and 'oil' -- the same thing applied to 'Holy Spirit' and 'oil' - is "just as rediculous"...

( That is the point that I was trying to make. )

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by GaryA

Yes - I understand that it does not say:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to tribulation, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rather - what it actually says is:


1 Thessalonians 5:

[SUP]9[/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


I understand that - according to the event-based definitions of the Bible - the Tribulation and the Wrath are two different things - and that the Tribulation ends before the Wrath of God begins.

This clear and concise teaching is lost on the Pre-Tribber. They need to equate the Tribulation to the Wrath of God or they lose the one requirement they have to suggest we cannot be on earth during the Tribulation.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
You guys have a non point.

shooting blanks once again.

 

[popeye]

I said aboslutely nothing whatsoever about researching anything...

You are completely missing the point that I was trying to make -- which is:

~ You say to someone else that it is rediculous to assign 'salvation' to 'oil'...

~ Yet - you yourself wish to assign 'Holy Spirit' to 'oil'...

~ Which is just as rediculous based on the statements you made about 'salvation' and 'oil'.

My substitution of 'Holy Spirit' for 'salvation' in the quotes was intended to illustrate that -- if the same measure of what your comments were "pointing out" about 'salvation' and 'oil' were to be applied to 'Holy Spirit' and 'oil' - you get the same result...

Based on what you said about 'salvation' and 'oil' -- the same thing applied to 'Holy Spirit' and 'oil' - is "just as rediculous"...

( That is the point that I was trying to make. )

Salvation does not work as the antitype.
Oil = HS

I have demonstrated that,unless you think salvation can be imparted by another believer,or,you need more salvation in order to enter the doorway.

3 or 4 obsticles you need to get creative with to "make it work"

 

[GaryA]

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
You guys have a non point.

( Do you not believe that 'affliction' and 'tribulation' are the same thing? )

Matthew 24:

[SUP]21[/SUP] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22[/SUP] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. [SUP]23[/SUP] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24[/SUP] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. [SUP]25[/SUP] Behold, I have told you before. [SUP]26[/SUP] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. [SUP]27[/SUP] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]28[/SUP] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


You might want to consider --- stop playing word games - and "cherry-picking" verses using the words you like -- and start paying more attention to what is actually being said...

shooting blanks once again.

And you are more interested in "winning" [ the 'competition' that is based on the intents of your thoughts ] instead of having a discussion of the subject...

 

[GaryA]

Salvation does not work as the antitype.
Oil = HS

I have demonstrated that,unless you think salvation can be imparted by another believer,or,you need more salvation in order to enter the doorway.

3 or 4 obsticles you need to get creative with to "make it work"

I am not agreeing with the 'oil' => 'salvation' idea --- that is not my point...

"No offense intended, but -- you really seem to be terrible at properly understanding what people are saying in their posts -- you seem to ASSUME a great deal..."

( Because you interpret [ too early ] while you are reading, instead of obtaining a proper understanding of what is being said before trying to understand what it is supposed to mean. I am thinking that you probably do the same when reading scripture... I am thinking that you are much more interested in 'responding' with whatever you can come up with out of your pre-programmed "play-your-tape" repertoire that you have been taught - rather than - understanding what people are actually saying, so that a more intellectually-driven discussion may be had. )

"On the bright side -- you have a really good imagination!"

 

[GaryA]

In conversation, a good exchange of ideas may only be had if - when it is our turn to "listen" - we "train" our thoughts on utilizing what we know about communication [ of the language being "spoken" ] to understand what is going on in the mind of the one "speaking"; we must shift our focus off of what we would like to say next - and keep it "trained" on what is being said by the 'speaker' at that time.

People who get caught up in forming [ the idea in their mind of ] how they want to respond to what is being said to them - even before they "hear and understand" what is being said to them - are destined to live out a one-way monologue ( what is in their mind only - i.e. - the meaning of both sides of the conversation comes from their own mind ) instead of having an actual conversation with another person - and accomplishing a true exchange of ideas...

"Just a thought..."