POLL: The Deity of Christ

[senzi]

What he did was to relegate Jesus to the status of a demigod and refused to acknowledge that Jesus IS God. This is the same thing the Jehovah's Witnesses do to the deity of Christ. If Jesus is not God to the same degree the Father is God then he is nothing.

I guess you are apalled at the early church for not making official doctrine Christ was God himself until 300 years after Christ died at Calvary. You must be dismayed they failed so badly concerning what to you is the core of the christian faith and core salvational belief

 

[senzi]

What he did was to relegate Jesus to the status of a demigod and refused to acknowledge that Jesus IS God. This is the same thing the Jehovah's Witnesses do to the deity of Christ. If Jesus is not God to the same degree the Father is God then he is nothing.

I guess you are apalled at the early church for not making official doctrine Christ was God himself until 300 years after Christ died at Calvary. You must be dismayed they failed so badly concerning what to you is the core of the christian faith and core salvational belief

 

[oldhermit]

I guess you are apalled at the early church for not making official doctrine Christ was God himself until 300 years after Christ died at Calvary. You must be dismayed they failed so badly concerning what to you is the core of the christian faith and core salvational belief

I am not concerned with what was reckoned as "official doctrine." Scripture is neither time contingent not culturally contingent. What I am concerned with is what the biblical text tells us. The deity of Christ was the foundation of the first century Church not an invention that came about 300 years after the fact. There is not a more established doctrine in all of scripture than the deity of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess you are apalled at the early church for not making official doctrine Christ was God himself until 300 years after Christ died at Calvary. You must be dismayed they failed so badly concerning what to you is the core of the christian faith and core salvational belief

Not quite sure what you mean. The origional church believed Christ was God. Thomas (one of the founders) called him not only Lord but God.

Funny thing is, Jesus did not get all up in arms, and correct thomas for such a heretical view of him being God. Wonder why?

 

[senzi]

I am not concerned with what was reckoned as "official doctrine." Scripture is neither time contingent not culturally contingent. What I am concerned with is what the biblical text tells us. The deity of Christ was the foundation of the first century Church not an invention that came about 300 years after the fact. There is not a more established doctrine in all of scripture than the deity of Christ.

So you do not believer the early church erred at all (or should be criticised) by failing to make official doctrine for 300 years after Christ died at Calvary what you say is the core of the christian faith and heresy not to believe. I find that strange

 

[oldhermit]

So you do not believer the early church erred at all by failing to make official doctrine for 300 years after Christ died at Calvary what you say is the core of the christian faith and heresy not to believe. I find that strange

The early Church believed and taught the deity of Christ. But, this is really irrelevant. It is the written text of scripture, not the Church that is the standard of truth. Truth is in the grammatical structure of scripture.

 

[senzi]

The early Church believed and taught the deity of Christ. But, this is really irrelevant. It is the written text of scripture, not the Church that is the standard of truth. Truth is in the grammatical structure of scripture.[/QUOTe

So from your reply I assume you do not believe it is incumbent on the church to make official doctrine what you say is the core of the christian faith.
I believe we are led into truth by the holy spirit, indeed people who gave read many different translations of the bible have come to understand spiritual truth. But then Jesus praised his father for hiding these things from the wise and learned andvrevealing them to little children luke 10:31 I doubt they understood much of grammatical structure of words

 

[senzi]

The early Church believed and taught the deity of Christ. But, this is really irrelevant. It is the written text of scripture, not the Church that is the standard of truth. Truth is in the grammatical structure of scripture.[/QUOTe)

So from your reply I assume you do not believe it is incumbent on the church to make official doctrine what you say is the core of the christian faith.
I believe we are led into truth by the holy spirit, indeed people who have read many different translations of the bible have come to understand spiritual truth. But then Jesus praised his father for hiding these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children luke 10:31 I doubt they understood much of the grammatical structure of words

 

[SolidGround]

Gen. 19:24 "Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

You are misunderstanding my points/posts if you think that I am proposing unitarianism. I am proposing semi-modalism, which ends up being Binitarian. (Also, that verse does not promote the idea of 2 Jehovahs, even though we know that the Name has now been given over also to Christ)

What we have in semi-modalism is 2 figures, linked by a 3rd figure, which is the power of the 1st.
When Jesus states, "if you have seen me then you have seen the Father", He can say so because they are one and the same through the Spirit. The body of Christ was man, but He was not a mere man. He is indwelt with the fullness of God, through the Spirit.

The first assumption of mine that you would have to break, is that Logos is in fact the Holy Spirit. If you can find a verse to counter this understanding, then I will be able to move on from my position back to orthodoxy.

 

[flob]

The Scripture, the New Testament, Is the church.
Who wrote it.
The apostles wrote the Scripture, the 'constitution' of the church

 

[Elin]

E

I am afraid your repetetive statements only show you have no answer to the words of Christ.
Nor can you give me any verse that states he is the one true God. Therefore it is you trying to pit scripture against scripture

". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ." (Jn 1:1, 13)

What other actual God is there than the one true God?

You are denying the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. . .not allowed here.

 

[flob]

The Logos both is the Spirit, 2 Cor 3:17,
as well the Logos speaks to the Spirit, and the Spirit leads the Son.
Father, Son, and Spirit, are 3 in 1

 

[senzi]

You are misunderstanding my points/posts if you think that I am proposing unitarianism. I am proposing semi-modalism, which ends up being Binitarian. (Also, that verse does not promote the idea of 2 Jehovahs, even though we know that the Name has now been given over also to Christ)

What we have in semi-modalism is 2 figures, linked by a 3rd figure, which is the power of the 1st.
When Jesus states, "if you have seen me then you have seen the Father", He can say so because they are one and the same through the Spirit. The body of Christ was man, but He was not a mere man. He is indwelt with the fullness of God, through the Spirit.

The first assumption of mine that you would have to break, is that Logos is in fact the Holy Spirit. If you can find a verse to counter this understanding, then I will be able to move on from my position back to orthodoxy.

They cannot break your first assumption for the logos os the holy spirit, and Christ and his father are one in that spirit. Jesus prayed the believers would be one as he and his father are one. Believers can only be as one in the holy spirit, there is no other way.

 

[Elin]

At least, whenever I read Paul´s letters, in his salutations, he mentioned 2 persons (not 3) and, the problem came (probably) for those ideas the RCC elaborated...

If you, my brother, had the Spirit of God dwelling within, does it make you God (or a God)?

The Holy Spirit doesn't dwell within God, the Holy Spirit is God, eternally proceeding from God the Father and God the Son.

 

[oldhermit]

So from your reply I assume you do not believe it is incumbent on the church to make official doctrine what you say is the core of the christian faith.

The Church has no say as to what is "official" doctrine. What makes any doctrine of scripture official is the divine antecedent. It proceeds from the mouth of God. The only obligation the Church has in this matter is to believe whatever comes from the mouth of God. Scripture is the representational form of the mind of God. It is the product of God-breathed revelation. THAT is what determines "official" doctrine.

I believe we are led into truth by the holy spirit, indeed people who gave read many different translations of the bible have come to understand spiritual truth. But then Jesus praised his father for hiding these things from the wise and learned andvrevealing them to little children luke 10:31 I doubt they understood much of grammatical structure of words.

They used language the same way we use language - to communicate an idea. The eloquence of the Greek NT testifies to the fact that they had a very good command of language and syntactical structures. In fact, Greek in a more eloquent language than our own. They understood very well the structure of language and the use of words.

 

[senzi]

You are misunderstanding my points/posts if you think that I am proposing unitarianism. I am proposing semi-modalism, which ends up being Binitarian. (Also, that verse does not promote the idea of 2 Jehovahs, even though we know that the Name has now been given over also to Christ)

What we have in semi-modalism is 2 figures, linked by a 3rd figure, which is the power of the 1st.
When Jesus states, "if you have seen me then you have seen the Father", He can say so because they are one and the same through the Spirit. The body of Christ was man, but He was not a mere man. He is indwelt with the fullness of God, through the Spirit.

The first assumption of mine that you would have to break, is that Logos is in fact the Holy Spirit. If you can find a verse to counter this understanding, then I will be able to move on from my position back to orthodoxy.

No one can break your first assumption for the logos os the holy spirit, and Christ and his father are one in that spirit. Jesus prayed the believers would be one as he and his father are one. (john 17:22) Believers can only be as one in the holy spirit, there is no other way.

 

[oldhermit]

You are misunderstanding my points/posts if you think that I am proposing unitarianism. I am proposing semi-modalism, which ends up being Binitarian. (Also, that verse does not promote the idea of 2 Jehovahs, even though we know that the Name has now been given over also to Christ)

What we have in semi-modalism is 2 figures, linked by a 3rd figure, which is the power of the 1st.
When Jesus states, "if you have seen me then you have seen the Father", He can say so because they are one and the same through the Spirit. The body of Christ was man, but He was not a mere man. He is indwelt with the fullness of God, through the Spirit.

The first assumption of mine that you would have to break, is that Logos is in fact the Holy Spirit. If you can find a verse to counter this understanding, then I will be able to move on from my position back to orthodoxy.

Ok, so you are not questioning the absolute deity or Christ only the person of the H.S. Is that correct?

 

[Elin]

No proof has been given because the bible does not state their man made belief. But it is a big book and as Muslims and others misinterpret it, so does the would be scholar and theologian often, sadly

". . .and the Word was God . . .The Word became flesh. . ." (jn 1:1, 13).

in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, God the Son, the second of three divine persons in the one true God.

It's not for lack of proof, it's for lack of belief.

You are denying the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, which is not allowed here.

 

[SolidGround]

Ok, so you are not questioning the absolute deity or Christ only the person of the H.S. Is that correct?

Half is correct. It is more along the lines of Christ, Logos, and the Holy Spirit being the exact same thing,
with Jesus being the the Body of this entity, Christ and Logos being His title/purpose/position, and the Holy Spirit being His Power/Deity.

Some of this extends into the comparison of the 1st and Last Adam, focusing around the Breath of God, which is the Word we translate as Spirit.

 

[Elin]

What proof?

". . .and the Word was God. . .The Word became flesh. . ." (Jn 1:1, 13)

in the man, Jesus of Nazareth, God the son.

You are denying the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, which is not allowed here.