Eternal Security

[Jason0047]

Jason....please listen to the sermon by Adrian Rogers on the first page of this thread

You mean Dr. Erwin? I read the Original Post and did not agree with it because he is ignoring other verses. In John 10, the sheep that cannot be snatched out of His hand are those sheep that FOLLOW Him. Read the chapter yourself. That's what it says. It's not talking about rebellious sheep. In John chapter 6, the word SHOULD is used. Should is a "maybe" word that does not mean it is a guarantee. Just skip back the previous chapter and read John 5:48. The context of the verse he uses in John 6 is in relation to John 5:48 that says that if you reject the words of Jesus, then those words will judge you on the last day.

you've said all of this a million times.

Actually, no. This is the first time I went thru Romans 6 with those particular verses in order before. If you disagree, why don't you tell me what you think they are saying. To me, they are pretty straight forward. I don't see how you and others here can ignore them.

 

[flob]

My edition of the Bible does not have a John 5:48.

Regeneration, birth, John 1; 3; 1 Peter 1; Romans 8, cannot be undone

 

[Jason0047]

sigh.... Jason I know you mean well but honestly you kind of tend to wear me out. I know certain people on here to be Christians of peace other are Christians of love others are Christians of deep wisdom others still I see as Christians of great faith. But Jason all I can see you as is a Christian of sin because all you ever talk about is the subject of sin and never doing it I never once have seen you actually show the fruit of the spirit and honestly sometimes I fear you are going to scare new believer into abandoning their faith because they simply were not good enough for him because they couldn't stop messing up no matter how hard they tried

Actually, my message is one of righteousness. For the purpose of the Word of God is to correct and to instruct or train others in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For what is sin?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

As for the fruit of the Spirit: You see what you want to see. I do display love in the fact that I do not attack back with insulting remarks when others do so towards me. Many times I will say kind words back. I am at peace and I am joyful in God my Savior.

As for scaring a new believer: Actually, Jesus says, narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Jesus says, he would prefer that we be either hot or cold. I see the OSAS doctrine as a luke-warm doctrine that allows one to get away with some sin while also serving the Lord. Some will object to this and say that the believer is supposed to live a holy life; But when push comes to shove, they will admit that they can die in unrepenant sin (Such as murder, lying, hating, adultery, etc.) and still be saved (Which is wrong).

As for the claim that a believer cannot stop sinning: Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14). Do you believe him? Paul also said that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Peter said that those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). Jesus said be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Jesus said if you sin, you are a slave to sin (John 8:34). The author of Hebrews said, Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation for all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[Jason0047]

Also read Ephesians 4:17-27,

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto licentiousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you have not so learned Christ; If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That YOU PUT OFF CONCERNING THE FORMER WAY OF LIFE THE OLDMAN, WHICH IS CORRUPT ACCORDING TO THE DECEITFUL LUSTS; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Therefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.BE ANGRY, AND SIN NOT: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil."

 

[Jason0047]

Also read Ephesians 4:17-27,

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto licentiousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But you have not so learned Christ; If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That YOU PUT OFF CONCERNING THE FORMER WAY OF LIFE THE OLDMAN, WHICH IS CORRUPT ACCORDING TO THE DECEITFUL LUSTS; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Therefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.BE ANGRY, AND SIN NOT: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil."

I mean, how does this above passage even make sense from an OSAS or sin and still be saved perspective. Maybe someone would like to try and explain it for me. Because I just do not see how we have an allowance to sin (with the thinking we are saved) by reading that passage.

 

[Jason0047]

My edition of the Bible does not have a John 5:48.

Regeneration, birth, John 1; 3; 1 Peter 1; Romans 8, cannot be undone

My bad. That would be John 12:48. But you should have recognized the reference, no?

 

[Blain]

Actually, my message is one of righteousness. For the purpose of the Word of God is to correct and to instruct or train others in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

For what is sin?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

As for the fruit of the Spirit: You see what you want to see. I do display love in the fact that I do not attack back with insulting remarks when others do so towards me. Many times I will say kind words back. I am at peace and I am joyful in God my Savior.

As for scaring a new believer: Actually, Jesus says, narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Jesus says, he would prefer that we be either hot or cold. I see the OSAS doctrine as a luke-warm doctrine that allows one to get away with some sin while also serving the Lord. Some will object to this and say that the believer is supposed to live a holy life; But when push comes to shove, they will admit that they can die in unrepenant sin (Such as murder, lying, hating, adultery, etc.) and still be saved (Which is wrong).

As for the claim that a believer cannot stop sinning: Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you (Romans 6:14). Do you believe him? Paul also said that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Peter said that those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin (1 Peter 4:1). Jesus said be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Jesus said if you sin, you are a slave to sin (John 8:34). The author of Hebrews said, Jesus is the author of our eternal salvation for all who OBEY Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Precisely, ( your) message, but believe me it isn't righteousness

 

[Jason0047]

Precisely, ( your) message, but believe me it isn't righteousness

So turning from sin is not about righteousness? That is what I am telling people to do. If folks are already do that, then nobody here would be getting upset. For the Law was not made for a righteous man (as I said before). Who is the Law made for?

 

[Blain]

So turning from sin is not about righteousness? That is what I am telling people to do. If folks are already do that, then nobody here would be getting upset. For the Law was not made for a righteous man (as I said before). Who is the Law made for?

If you seek righteousness then you need a heart that deeply and richly filled with love for God with him and all others, that is the heart God is seeking. Every day he searches the world he searches the hearts of man seeking a heart that is truly after his own one that truly loves and adores and hungers and longs for him beyond belief. This si the righteous to him not what you claim is righteousness.

 

[Sirk]

So turning from sin is not about righteousness? That is what I am telling people to do. If folks are already do that, then nobody here would be getting upset. For the Law was not made for a righteous man (as I said before). Who is the Law made for?

There is no doubt you'd have better luck with a bullhorn on your local street corner outside a jack n the box. Don't forget your sign that says....the end is near.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Who is the Law made for?

The dead. You are not among them, are you??

 

[Angela53510]

Reading my Bible in church this morning, another passage that precedes the famous Eph. 2:8-10 came up. It talks about salvation being in the past tense.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:4-10

This is really an amazing verse:

"by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

We have been saved - perfect past tense, completed action. And God "raised" us up and "seated" us with him. The problem is with people who think they can lose their salvation, is they have the order of salvation mixed up.

Justified - Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." God does this for us through the blood of Christ, and it is already done, already accomplished.

Sanctified - 1 Thess. 5:23 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The on-going process of walking with Christ and being transformed by the Holy Spirit into his image.

Glorified - Romans 8:16-17 "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him." What happens to us when we meet Christ face toface.

Let's look at verse 5 of Eph. 2 above.

"even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ."

If we are made alive in Christ, something God did even while we were sinful, if we lose our salvation, then does God make us dead again? Or kill us spiritually?

Or are we made alive in Christ, and stay that way? I prefer to rest confident that my salvation, being justified, is in the past, just as the Bible says it is, and not worry about being killed by God every time I slip up or sin.

"By grace you are saved" That phrase is repeated twice in the Eph. 2 passage. Why? So we know it is God who makes us alive and saves us, it is not about our ability to stop sinning, but rather the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us as children of God.

 

[Gr8grace]

Reading my Bible in church this morning, another passage that precedes the famous Eph. 2:8-10 came up. It talks about salvation being in the past tense.

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:4-10

This is really an amazing verse:

"by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

We have been saved - perfect past tense, completed action. And God "raised" us up and "seated" us with him. The problem is with people who think they can lose their salvation, is they have the order of salvation mixed up.

Justified - Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." God does this for us through the blood of Christ, and it is already done, already accomplished.

Sanctified - 1 Thess. 5:23 "Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The on-going process of walking with Christ and being transformed by the Holy Spirit into his image.

Glorified - Romans 8:16-17 "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him." What happens to us when we meet Christ face toface.

Let's look at verse 5 of Eph. 2 above.

"even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ."

If we are made alive in Christ, something God did even while we were sinful, if we lose our salvation, then does God make us dead again? Or kill us spiritually?

Or are we made alive in Christ, and stay that way? I prefer to rest confident that my salvation, being justified, is in the past, just as the Bible says it is, and not worry about being killed by God every time I slip up or sin.

"By grace you are saved" That phrase is repeated twice in the Eph. 2 passage. Why? So we know it is God who makes us alive and saves us, it is not about our ability to stop sinning, but rather the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us as children of God.

Eph 2:8 is arguably the most forceful verse in the bible for eternal security.

As you pointed out "having been saved" in verse 5, verse 8 has the same verb construct .....The periphrastic perfect. Paul can't get the whole point across with one verb so he uses 2 verbal forms in His statement "having been saved."

It is a forceful statement to pound the truth home. Paul is in essence saying," LOOK, you were saved in the past, you are saved now and you are saved forever!"

In the Greek, the periphrastic perfect used by Paul in his statement"having been saved", leaves no leaks or loopholes. We are tied into salvation forever.

 

[Jason0047]

But you have to ignore the context (verses 2-3) to make an askewed view on Ephesians 2:8-9 work. Here is what it says,

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

So in the past one was a sinner and they were fulfilling the desires of the flesh. This means a believer cannot be that way. It is in the past. For doing those things made you of the children of wrath.

Paul says shall we continue in sin?

He then says, God forbid.

Meaning it is not allowed.

One cannot abide in unrepentant sin (like lying, etc.) and still be saved.

 

[Jason0047]

If you seek righteousness then you need a heart that deeply and richly filled with love for God with him and all others, that is the heart God is seeking. Every day he searches the world he searches the hearts of man seeking a heart that is truly after his own one that truly loves and adores and hungers and longs for him beyond belief. This si the righteous to him not what you claim is righteousness.

Our thoughts are not God's thoughts. Scripture please.

 

[SeaBass]

Eternal Security
By Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer

The oft repeated phrase “once saved, always saved” is often criticized as condoning, or encouraging Christians to be lax and even carnal. After all, the argument goes, if people have the assurance that they will be saved regardless of how they live, there is no incentive to live a godly life; Christians can revel in iniquity with impunity. For this reason, the doctrine of eternal security, “once saved, always saved,” has often been better described as “the perseverance of the saints,” that is, true saints will persevere in holiness. They might have lapses in their spiritual journey to be sure, but the direction of their life is to seek holiness, and as they progress in their Christian experience, they become more and more conformed to the image of Christ.

Eternal Security (or whatever Lutzer wants to call it) says salvation is UNCONDITIONAL...it is impossible to lose salvation under ANY condition. Which means a Christian "can revel in iniquity without impunity" giving the Christian no incentive to live a godly life but gives a license to live ungodly and still be saved

Lutzer does not truly understand the implication of eternal security, for ES were true then it would not matter at all the type of life a Christian would live. One Christian could choose to live godly while another chooses to live ungodly--yet both would be saved. So the Christian would have no more incentive to live a godly life than an ungodly life.

Lutzer can live a godly life, another Christian can live an ungodly life and both are saved just the same. So what difference should it make to Lutzer if a Christian lived a godly or ungodly life?

 

[Jason0047]

The dead. You are not among them, are you??

No. That is not what the passage says. It says,

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."

It says the Law is made for sinners and those who are lawless and it is not for the righteous man.

 

[Jason0047]

Are you a sinner and lawless?
Or can you say you are a righteous man?

 

[Mitspa]

Cant sleep until they challenge someones salvation...

 

[Jason0047]

Paul says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."