The heresies of the few

[Pumicestone]

....There is no regret on your part. You use that as part of your excuse list for not accepting God.
Worse yet, it's not true, and yet you stick with it to give you the excuse why you don't have to trust God....

Oh I do so love it when Christians (or others) can look right into my heart and mind and know exactly what lies there. We've never met, never spoken, never even had a really good chat.
And yet, they can be absolutely infallible regarding my honesty, my motives and my philosophical journey.

I assure you that I would be a believer if I could - but I cannot choose to believe.
It has to make sense and stand up to scrutiny.
Otherwise I might just as well cling to any old belief system from Islam to the Mormons to Scientology or whatever.


If you would like a little more insight I suggest a peek at the thread "The Vigilant Pumicestone".
Or not.


" [FONT=\]please stop thinking I have a hidden agenda. I'm too naive to do that."[/FONT]

 

[Tintin]

Wow. This is so weird. I've seen a number of CC members who joined years ago and I've never seen them before. And they just happen to return and post in this thread? Weird.

 

[SolidGround]

As there is no declarative statement, "God is Triune," so there is no declarative statement, "God is sovereign."

But God's sovereignty is taught in every book of the Bible (as in Da 4:25),
just as three persons in one God is presented throughout the NT.


Who made that rule?

The being of the infinite God can be stated "plainly" to finite beings?

As for Trinity verses Sovereignty,
Sovereignty is more plainly stated, but still not heretical to misunderstand.
If it is a salvic doctrine, then it is spoken plainly.
This can be easily grasped from any of the salvic verses.

You may view the 3 persons in One as "presented", but as one who reads the NT daily, I don't see it. Sure, there is suggestive terminology, but it is not presented. It is a hidden topic, not ever addressed or discussed within Scripture. It is man who sees it as a problem, and tries to solve the problem, by creating a doctrine to explain away what they see as a contradiction.

 

[Elin]

As there is no declarative statement, "God is Triune," so there is no declarative statement, "God is sovereign."

But God's sovereignty is taught in every book of the Bible (as in Da 4:25),
just as three persons in one God is presented throughout the NT.

Who made that rule?
The being of the infinite God can be stated "plainly" to finite beings?

As for Trinity verses Sovereignty,
Sovereignty is more plainly stated, but still not heretical to misunderstand.
If it is a salvic doctrine, then it is spoken plainly.
This can be easily grasped from any of the salvic verses.

You may view the 3 persons in One as "presented", but as one who reads the NT daily, I don't see it.
Sure, there is suggestive terminology, but it is not presented. It is a hidden topic, not ever addressed or discussed within Scripture. It is man who sees it as a problem, and tries to solve the problem, by creating a doctrine to explain away what they see as a contradiction.

That's where good teaching comes in, and why God gave teachers to the church.

The evidence presented by the NT is clear here, the last half of the post.

 

[SolidGround]

That's where good teaching comes in, and why God gave teachers to the church.

The evidence presented by the NT is clear here, the last half of the post.

Ah, I do not want to side against discipleship.
That is not what I was trying to get at. Good teaching and good discipleship are key roles given by Christ unto His Body.
It is very difficult for me to reach my neck out for those who do not understand the Trinity, but I am convicted that doing so is good for the Kingdom unified in Christ.

Not all see these connections, even when clearly presented. I, for one, am an Infinitarian: that God is infinite, but so far we only know of 4 ways He displays Himself, as these are the 4 revealed in Scripture and in our lives. This includes, but is not limited to, the Trinity.

The question I pose, is: how does belief in the Trinity affect a person's Faith/walk/maturity in Christ.
The answer is: in a scholastic fashion.

It is impractical, because it is knowledge without use. The useful doctrines in Scripture are made plain, and even given their use within the text:
example: the authority of Scripture:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV)
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete: equipped for every good work.

 

[kedge]

Serious to you, but non-essential to saving faith, except that we all are on the same page as to who Jesus is---God incarnate. He is Almighty God. True believers do not differ in these areas. The Lord teaches us these truths.

That's one belief system yes, which is based on your interpretation of the bible, just because it is your truth does not necessarily mean it is the absolute truth. How is it then that many have the holy spirit yet disagree?, how can the holy spirit guide the same believers/christians into different interpretations of the bible?


The bible to me is like a rubics cube which is not easy for me to work it out, it's like i have to be a codebreaker to crack the the bible's code to understand what it is saying or to reveal what the truth really is. Yeah sometimes it takes people like me a long time to work it all out, we are not all academics nor gifted. For example, the bible says to love the enemy, to love those that hate you, to love your neighbour, the bible says to hate what is bad, to turn away from what is bad, bad associations spoil useful habits etc, but how do you love your neighbour if your neighbour is bad or doing bad things or violating bible standards?, do you love the body or hate the body or do you love the mind or hate the mind?, i have read it in some places that hate the sin not the sinner but what does that really mean? which part of the person do you hate or love?.

 

[kedge]

I assure you that I would be a believer if I could - but I cannot choose to believe.
It has to make sense and stand up to scrutiny.

I'm like that in a lot of ways, it all has to make logical sense and i have to reason with it all, only then can i make an informed decision and choose to believe.

Otherwise

I might just as well cling to any old belief system from Islam to the Mormons to Scientology or whatever.

Sometimes i wonder if we all just go with what we think is right, put on the blinkers and trot on?, but that might not sit comfortably for all though?, might get a bit saddle saw? or just gallop off into the sunset with one's head held high?, lol.

 

[FancyNancy]

That's one belief system yes, which is based on your interpretation of the bible, just because it is your truth does not necessarily mean it is the absolute truth. How is it then that many have the holy spirit yet disagree?, how can the holy spirit guide the same believers/christians into different interpretations of the bible?

Those who have salvation agree on matters concerning essential teachings about who Jesus is, salvation, and who God is---the gospel message. Other differences don't matter. There is only ONE faith, ONE truth, and ONE gospel.

The bible to me is like a rubics cube which is not easy for me to work it out, it's like i have to be a codebreaker to crack the the bible's code to understand what it is saying or to reveal what the truth really is. Yeah sometimes it takes people like me a long time to work it all out, we are not all academics nor gifted. For example, the bible says to love the enemy, to love those that hate you, to love your neighbour, the bible says to hate what is bad, to turn away from what is bad, bad associations spoil useful habits etc, but how do you love your neighbour if your neighbour is bad or doing bad things or violating bible standards?, do you love the body or hate the body or do you love the mind or hate the mind?, i have read it in some places that hate the sin not the sinner but what does that really mean? which part of the person do you hate or love?.

This is why we need to receive Jesus and His salvation, as Holy Spirit moves in and takes up residence within us and we then can read the bible with His understanding. It is amazing.

 

[kedge]

There is only ONE faith, ONE truth, and ONE gospel.

But many different interpretations, we are just going round and round and over and over the same things with no clear understanding of what the truth really is though. If Christians disagree with what the true meaning of the Bible is how can there be ONE anything?, i'm not talking about One God, One Jesus Christ, i'm talking about what the true teachings are?

This is why we need to receive Jesus and His salvation, as Holy Spirit moves in and takes up residence within us and we then can read the bible with His understanding. It is amazing.

Again, that is what many who label themselves as Christians say but differ in interpretations of the Bible and its true meaning or truth.

Anyway enough from me, this is going nowhere really fast, it is the same old same old, this is the way that is the way is what they say.

Cya have a nice day.

 

[FancyNancy]

But many different interpretations, we are just going round and round and over and over the same things with no clear understanding of what the truth really is though. If Christians disagree with what the true meaning of the Bible is how can there be ONE anything?, i'm not talking about One God, One Jesus Christ, i'm talking about what the true teachings are?

Holy Spirit convinces us what His truth is. People who know His voice don't have a problem. Those who wing it, do. To those who seek Him, He will lead and provide good solid leaders and teachers to teach them. That's His job to provide---not our job to pick teachers on our own by what or who seems good to us.

Again, that is what many who label themselves as Christians say but differ in interpretations of the Bible and its true meaning or truth.

Anyway enough from me, this is going nowhere really fast, it is the same old same old, this is the way that is the way is what they say.

Cya have a nice day.

Receive Jesus and His free gift of salvation, and these questions will resolve for you. Good night, kedge!

 

[Utah]

Yes it is me as I already had a request in for my account to be deleted until others requested I stay..........

But before I could send an email to keep my other account opened it got deleted, so I had to make another account.

Newbie.

 

[Utah]

I'm like that in a lot of ways, it all has to make logical sense and i have to reason with it all, only then can i make an informed decision and choose to believe.

It's not logical to believe a man was raised from the dead and then ascend into a place called glory. That's why it's called faith; the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And the beauty of faith is that the illogical becomes absolutely logical.

 

[kedge]

Holy Spirit convinces us what His truth is.

Yeah that's what all Christian denominations say, the holy spirit convinces all christians but not all christians believe the same things from the bible, so, they too have a truth but not necessarily the truth, and that is what i'm trying to understand, what is truth?. And you will just say jesus is the truth which is correct but what is the truth of his teachings?

People who know His voice don't have a problem.

What do you mean by his voice?, do you mean a voice of a man in your head?, how does anyone know what Jesus Christ sounded like?

To those who seek Him, He will lead and provide good solid leaders and teachers to teach them.

But i thought Jesus was the leader and teacher?

That's His job to provide---not our job to pick teachers on our own by what or who seems good to us.

I thought Christians choose Jesus Christ as their leader and teacher?

Receive Jesus and His free gift of salvation, and these questions will resolve for you. Good night, kedge!

I'm trying to understand who Jesus Christ is and what is true teachings are, that takes time i know and it differs from person to person. But Jesus Christ can not appear in person to me so i am dependant on those that claim they have spoken or heard the Christ talk to them, but here lies the problem within Christianity, which interpretation is the correct or true interpretation?, many Christian denominations with different teachings from the Bible. Of course you are going to say you have the truth, it's the same with others who say they have the correct biblical knowledge and truth of what the scriptures are teaching.

 

[kedge]

It's not logical to believe a man was raised from the dead and then ascend into a place called glory. That's why it's called faith; the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. And the beauty of faith is that the illogical becomes absolutely logical.

Yes that's good stuff but when it comes to the truth of what the bible is teaching its readers then who has the authority to claim the truth?. Christians are divided on biblical text/scripture and what the Bible truth really is, why is that?

 

[atwhatcost]

In your first point, you act as if I doubt the authority of Scripture... which means you haven't read my posts, as the only authority I accept is Scripture when it comes to anything theological.

As for research, it is what I do as my current career. I left business several years ago to focus on doing free ministry. Nor is this a recent passion, as I always loved Church history and theological discussions, and have read many of the Christian classics, as well as modern treatises.

At point number three, I'm beginning to think you were trying to respond to someone else, and accidentally clicked my post. If it was directed at me, then you simply don't understand the post you are responding to... as the metaphor of the hallway bears no resemblance to my point.

I am bewildered at point 4. I didn't blame anyone, nor was I ever aggressive enough to warrant this type of response.

Yup. You caught me. Sorry about that. I did confuse you with someone else. Also got way too emotional with the other person, and that landed on you too. So, I'm sorry about both. Mia culpa. My fault. Truly, truly sorry.

 

[Utah]

Yes that's good stuff but when it comes to the truth of what the bible is teaching its readers then who has the authority to claim the truth?. Christians are divided on biblical text/scripture and what the Bible truth really is, why is that?

Fair question. Remember, we have free will, and with that, all sorts of variables come into play -- sincerity, pride, hope, denial and of course, as already mentioned, the Holy Spirit.

And Scripture says: The foolishness of a man twists his way, and his heart frets against the Lord.

Bottom line is this, Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and God's Will has been done through Him.

 

[popeye]

My message to all cessationists; (posted in other threads)

Your lack of knowledge in the word tells me 1) you are cesssationist 2) those MEN have you twisting Jesus and his TESTIMONY....DO YOU NOT REALIZE YOU ACTUALLY ATTACK THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS???

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.


40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.


8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:


14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.


17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.



I AM NOT OFFENDED JESUS THAT YOU ORDAINED AND COMMANDED YOUR FOLLOWERS TO THE SAME TESTIMONY AS YOURSELF.

 

[FancyNancy]

Yeah that's what all Christian denominations say, the holy spirit convinces all christians but not all christians believe the same things from the bible, so, they too have a truth but not necessarily the truth, and that is what i'm trying to understand, what is truth?. And you will just say jesus is the truth which is correct but what is the truth of his teachings?

The truth is found in the scriptures, inspired by God Himself.

What do you mean by his voice?, do you mean a voice of a man in your head?, how does anyone know what Jesus Christ sounded like?

When He speaks to you in your inner man, you will know His voice. Read the scriptures and hear Him speak to you.

But i thought Jesus was the leader and teacher?


I thought Christians choose Jesus Christ as their leader and teacher?

Jesus is our Lord and King, and when we allow Him to, He sends us gifted teachers and leaders of His choosing into our lives. Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher, but God uses His people, gifted by His Spirit to elucidate the truth to us, to disciple us---to train us in righteousness and in ministry so that we can go out and do the same thing. Good disciples of Jesus Christ make disciples of Jesus Christ.

I'm trying to understand who Jesus Christ is and what is true teachings are, that takes time i know and it differs from person to person. But Jesus Christ can not appear in person to me so i am dependant on those that claim they have spoken or heard the Christ talk to them, but here lies the problem within Christianity, which interpretation is the correct or true interpretation?, many Christian denominations with different teachings from the Bible. Of course you are going to say you have the truth, it's the same with others who say they have the correct biblical knowledge and truth of what the scriptures are teaching.

If you really want to understand more about Jesus, then get into a good, bible-believing and bible teaching church that has a vibrant, growing congregation, and that does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian's life. It is most likely that you will gain understanding there, and then when you have experienced Jesus, and have accepted Him as your Saviour nad Lord, then you will learn to submit to His leading yourself.

John 10:27-30
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, [SUP]29 [/SUP]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else.[SUP][d][/SUP] No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. [SUP]30 [/SUP]The Father and I are one.”

 

[kedge]

The truth is found in the scriptures, inspired by God Himself.

Ok, so, i think to myself "what is this hellfire place of punishment Christians speak of"?, is it a literal place that God Himself created?, does Genesis explain when God created this place? obviously all those bad people when they died in those days must of gone to hellfire?. How do i reconcile a God of love that must of known human beings were going to fail at His very high standards, God created hellfire along with the universe and earth right?

When He speaks to you in your inner man, you will know His voice. Read the scriptures and hear Him speak to you.

I do try my best to read and understand the scriptures but the problem is am I interpreting all the scriptures properly or correctly?

Jesus is our Lord and King, and when we allow Him to, He sends us gifted teachers and leaders of His choosing into our lives. Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher, but God uses His people, gifted by His Spirit to elucidate the truth to us, to disciple us---to train us in righteousness and in ministry so that we can go out and do the same thing. Good disciples of Jesus Christ make disciples of Jesus Christ.

I hear you, I understand what you are saying, i guess this explains the division in Christianity, the different interpretations of the Holy Bible taught by leaders or men of good standing with God has created discrepancy, this can't be right surely?

If you really want to understand more about Jesus, then get into a good, bible-believing and bible teaching church that has a vibrant, growing congregation, and that does not deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian's life. It is most likely that you will gain understanding there, and then when you have experienced Jesus, and have accepted Him as your Saviour nad Lord, then you will learn to submit to His leading yourself.

So, any Christian denomination i freely choose will lead me to the truth then?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Ok, so, i think to myself "what is this hellfire place of punishment Christians speak of"?, is it a literal place that God Himself created?, does Genesis explain when God created this place? obviously all those bad people when they died in those days must of gone to hellfire?. How do i reconcile a God of love that must of known human beings were going to fail at His very high standards, God created hellfire along with the universe and earth right?

Might I make a suggestion, Kedge? The points you bring up and peripherals, and many non-believers use them to deflect the core of the Gospel, which is Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you this: If you can temporarily embrace that there is God, that in whatever manner you want to accept that He is responsible for your life existing, would you want to get to know Him?

Further, if knowing Him is only possible through speaking to Him, asking Him in sincerity to reveal Himself to you, would you be willing to do so?

If you do that, are you prepared to read the Bible and have your worldview challenged?

What do you say to those questions?



I do try my best to read and understand the scriptures but the problem is am I interpreting all the scriptures properly or correctly?



I hear you, I understand what you are saying, i guess this explains the division in Christianity, the different interpretations of the Holy Bible taught by leaders or men of good standing with God has created discrepancy, this can't be right surely?



So, any Christian denomination i freely choose will lead me to the truth then?[/QUOTE]