1 Corinthians 11

phil112 · Jun 22, 2015

Woke at 3 AM and felt like reading. 1 Cor 11 is where I am. What a chapter that is and what a hornets nest it stirs up today in our churches.
First, start with this song that was on my mind as I studied. Wonderful lyrics. [video]https://youtu.be/W_7jcDw_U5Y[/video]

The first thing I want to bring to mind in this chapter is hair. I'll do it by quoting two verses. If you disagree with what Paul is saying, rationalize your disagreement by explaining away these scriptures.

1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Psalm 4:2 "O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah."

This is the word of God, not some ancient fashion custom.

valiant · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

Woke at 3 AM and felt like reading. 1 Cor 11 is where I am. What a chapter that is and what a hornets nest it stirs up today in our churches.
First, start with this song that was on my mind as I studied. Wonderful lyrics. [video]https://youtu.be/W_7jcDw_U5Y[/video]

The first thing I want to bring to mind in this chapter is hair. I'll do it by quoting two verses. If you disagree with what Paul is saying, rationalize your disagreement by explaining away these scriptures.

1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Psalm 4:2 "O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah."

This is the word of God, not some ancient fashion custom.

well I am all in favour of women having long hair, but I don't think that that is in mind in Psalm 4.2 which refers more to vain words and lies..

directline2iam · Jun 22, 2015

I wonder if Jesus had time in His three year ministry to keep His hair accordiing to jewish CUSTOMand I wonder if there are some balding men who are jealous of woman who could grow long hair but freely choose in Christ not to be concerned with superficial. 2000 year old traditions that have no place in salvation.

GracethroughfaithinChrist · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

Thank you for sharing a nice song in the morning with us brother (Jesus hold my hand) and let it be so always, that He guides all of us in every way in all things, according to Father's perfect will. Abiding in Him, in His Word and in His love. Bearing much fruit and bringing glory to the Father.

John 15:4-9
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.

Esther 2:12-14
12Before a young woman’s turn came to go in to King Xerxes, she had to complete twelve months of beauty treatments prescribed for the women, six months with oil of myrrh and six with perfumes and cosmetics. 13And this is how she would go to the king: Anything she wanted was given her to take with her from the harem to the king’s palace. 14In the evening she would go there and in the morning return to another part of the harem to the care of Shaashgaz, the king’s eunuch who was in charge of the concubines. She would not return to the king unless he was pleased with her and summoned her by name.

1 Peter 3:3,4
3Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.

p_rehbein · Jun 22, 2015

Shouldn't we at least try and read the entire passage of Scripture where Paul is teaching this? Or just one or two verses?

1 Corinthians 11........................

1 .) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 .) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 .) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 .) Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 .) But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 .) For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 .) For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 .) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 .) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 .) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 .) Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 .) For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 .) Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 .) Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 .) But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 .) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Context is critical..............yes? no?

atwhatcost · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

Woke at 3 AM and felt like reading. 1 Cor 11 is where I am. What a chapter that is and what a hornets nest it stirs up today in our churches.
First, start with this song that was on my mind as I studied. Wonderful lyrics. [video]https://youtu.be/W_7jcDw_U5Y[/video]

The first thing I want to bring to mind in this chapter is hair. I'll do it by quoting two verses. If you disagree with what Paul is saying, rationalize your disagreement by explaining away these scriptures.

1 Corinthians 11:15 "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."
Psalm 4:2 "O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah."

This is the word of God, not some ancient fashion custom.

Sorry. I'm lost. How are the two verses connected and what does this all mean to you?

p_rehbein · Jun 22, 2015

Point of interest..........or............HUGE SIDE BAR........whichever..........

I have had people ask me how the Apostle could have made such a statement as this found in the 14th verse:

14 .) Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

And they will say..........."but, in Nature male animals often DO have long hair......just look at the Lions......."

I ask them if they have sought to understand what the Apostle is saying and why, and from what perspective, and usually they will say no. Now, I can not explain it as well as others, so I point them to Gill's Exposition/Commentary of this verse.

1 Corinthians 11:14
Doth not even nature itself teach you
By nature is either meant, the law and light of nature, reason in man, common sense, or rather custom, which is second nature; and which, in this case, must be restrained to the Greeks and Jews; for though among the Grecians the men cut their hair, and did not suffer it to grow long, as also did the Jews, yet there were many nations [SUP]F11[/SUP] who did not, even at that time, observe such a rule or custom; but as the Jews and Greeks were the persons chiefly, if not solely, known to the Corinthians, the apostle signifies, that the usages of these people might direct and inform them in this matter:that if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him;
he looks unmanly and womanish, and exposes himself to ridicule and contempt.

Or..........I suppose, one could go with this:

Joidevivre · Jun 22, 2015

Hmmmm - I really do feel sorry for all those ladies years ago sitting without air conditioning in stuffy churches during a hot summer with their hair streaming down their necks. Because if they had put it up in a french twist to get it off her neck, that would be sort of like a braid - (even more of a dilemma).

Maybe they thought about their husbands all with shorn hair sitting next to them and reflected "It's a man's world". Oh, yes it is!

atwhatcost · Jun 22, 2015

Joidevivre said:

Most of my life I've had short hair. When I was a kid, the church was so hot, I'd either have to leave during mass or pass out. Even as an adult I had to try and sneak out of Bible class discreetly, because the heat and mildew were getting to me. (I start getting tunnel vision before I pass out, so I have roughly 1-2 minutes to get out.) I'm not sure, since the longest my hair has ever been is tickle-my-shoulders length, but I can't imagine anyone getting hotter than I felt just because their hair was longer.

crossnote · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

first mistake

crossnote · Jun 22, 2015

I don't know but I find this reference to creation and the angels interesting...

8 .) For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 .) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 .) For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

atwhatcost · Jun 22, 2015

crossnote said:

I didn't get that either. (As in, I have no idea what angels have to do with the relationship of women and men. lol)

PoetMary · Jun 22, 2015

I love long hair discussions. Particularly because there is no real established standard of what is long (outside of cosmetology schools). A lot of it is very culturally based.

Is a woman's hair long if it's to her shoulders? Collarbone? Bottoms of the shoulder blades? Halfway down her back? To her bottom? To her feet? At what point is it considered "long," and who gets to determine this? Men? Other women? Society at large? Hairstylists?

The standard for hairstylists is that short hair on women is chin-length or shorter. Medium hair is to the top of the shoulders. Anything past the shoulders is considered long hair.

For example, African woman and some African-American women have real troubles growing out enough hair that would be perceived as "long" to a lot of men. Sometimes their natural hair is so thick and wiry that maintaining hair past the shoulders would be impractical. That is, unless they pay to have a weave of some kind put in. (As an aside, I wonder if the long-hair fans would consider someone like Whoopi Goldberg, who has long dreadlocks, in the category of women who have long hair).

Additionally, there are lots of women who maintain shorter hair for the sake of ease. My own God-fearing mother has had short hair for years and years. Because she has arthritis in her right shoulder, it's difficult for her to have a hairstyle that demands a lot of care.

And of course, there are all the women who've dealt with various forms of cancer, lost their hair, and found that it grew back quite differently from how it was originally.

What's ironic is that the two original scriptures posted mention the following ideas:

Long hair is a woman's glory
How long will you love vanity

For a lot of women, having long hair doesn't make them less vain, it makes them more vain. For example, it's more vain for an African American woman to pay lots of money to get and maintain a weave to fit in with the "long hair" model than it would be for her to wear a shorter style she can maintain on her own. My mother would be indulging in great vanity to ignore her shoulder pain in order to maintain a longer style, even though it's physically taxing for her.

Our spiritual lives would be so easy if externals determined how close we were to God. If all I have to do to be virtuous before God is have long hair...BOOM...I'm set. All I need now is a McMansion and a Mercedes, and I'll really know that God approves of me and is blessing me.

Rosesrock · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

I believe those verses are separating men from women, which today as Christians is a very important thing due tonthe whole gender confusion thing.

Also this is my personal belief and testimony so dont jump me if you disagree. My hub has always loved my long hair, so since he liked it i kept it long and styled with current styles. When we talked divorce one of the first things i did was cut my hair. I really didnt know why then, but know i understand the heart issue with that. Today it's long again, and hub is happy running his fingers through it when he's falling asleep. Me? I put it up as soon as i can lol

I think long hair is a glory, long?? Subjective. Again distinquish between man and woman.

Viligant_Warrior · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

Read in context, this passage is only tangentially about hair. It is actually about a woman needing the authoritative covering of her husband or her pastor to teach. It is the beginning of a long lesson about proper church procedures and order of worship that goes all the way through the fourteenth chapter.

phil112 said:

This is a great verse, but if you read the rest of the Psalm, it appears to be more about God calling the godly man to account than ti has to with fashion. In fact, I don't think it has a thing in the world to do with fashion or hair length, but perhaps I'm thinking too narrowly.

phil112 · Jun 22, 2015

Rosesrock said:

Had this discussion with more than one pastor. If a silhouette of a person can be mistaken for the other gender, your hair is the wrong length.
Those that say this about men and women, not necessarily hair, take it up with Paul - he said hair.

Joidevivre · Jun 22, 2015

What about the poor woman who has cancer and is bald? Or it is growing out slowly? Let us look at the hearts of each other as Christ does.

PoetMary · Jun 22, 2015

phil112 said:

Well good news for me! I'm a curvy girl and my silhouette would NEVER be mistaken for a man, so now I can wear my hair any length I like.

Tough luck for the pixie girls, though, eh? You know, come to think of it, Audrey Hepburn looked super-manly when she had really short hair.

Utah · Jun 22, 2015

PoetMary said:

I love curves! On the road, roller coasters, women, and Crazy Straws! Remember Crazy Straws?!!!

Miri · Jun 22, 2015

PoetMary said:

Me too haha, plus I have short purple hair

A question about long haired men. Why were Nazirites told not to cut their hair.

I honestly don't get this long hair/short hair thing, I think it was more a cultural issue.

Judges 13:5 NKJV
[5] For behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. And no razor shall come
upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and
he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."

Judges 16:21-22 NKJV
[21] Then the Philistines took him and put out his eyes, and brought him down
to Gaza. They bound him with bronze fetters, and he became a grinder in the
prison. [22] However, the hair of his head began to grow again after it had been
shaven.

1 Corinthians 11

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