Eternal Security

[Stephen63]

So you can't or won't be truthful?

The scripture is truthful..... that's all I need.

 

[Sirk]

The scripture is truthful..... that's all I need.

You know "truth" but you keep it to yourself? How is that in the spirit of making disciples, professing Christ etc etc?

All I asked is who the majority is and who the minority is. Why be evasive if you stand in the light?

 

[Mitspa]

You obviously miss the point of the verse. Paul is the one who is telling other believers to examine themselves and to prove their own selves on whether or not Christ is in them or not. Today, it is just a mental acknowledgment that Jesus is your Savior and you are all good. But it doesn't work like that, though. Paul's words would not make any sense in 2 Corinthians 13:5 if that was the case.

Right examine yourself...not challenge the salvation of others, the fact that some have the desire to look at others and not themselves is a sign that some don't have honest hearts before the Lord.


2Co 11:12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

 

[Jason0047]

Right examine yourself...not challenge the salvation of others, the fact that some have the desire to look at others and not themselves is a sign that some don't have honest hearts before the Lord.


2Co 11:12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Uh, no. Paul is a believer and he is saying this to other believers to examine themselves. He is challenging their salvation by telling them to examine themselves whether Christ is in them.

Paul also says, all Scripture is for correction and for training in righteousness.

Paul also says, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather, reprove them.

Paul also said at the end of 2 Corinthians 12,

"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found unto you such as you desire not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, conceit, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall mourn over many who have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and licentiousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

So Paul is desiring the Corinthians to see if they repented of of their uncleanness and licentiousness that they have committed. So Paul here is going to see (judge) their salvation if they repented or not.

As for the passage you quote: Well, that passage actually applies to those who have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. See 2 Timothy 3:1-9. For Jesus said you will know false prophets by their fruit.

 

[p_rehbein]

Some insights as to who the "majority" are............from Gill's exposition of Luke 13:25


saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
they acknowledge Christ to be Lord, as all will at the last day, to the glory of God the Father, even professors and profane; they repeat the word, to show the vehemency and earnestness of their entreaty; and according to the Syriac and, Persic versions, they claim an interest in Christ, which read, "our Lord, our Lord"; and on account of which they doubted not, but the door would be opened: but alas! he was only their Lord in a professional way; they had only called him Lord, Lord, but had never truly and heartily yielded obedience to him; their hearts had never been opened to him, and he had never had a place there, nor his Gospel; wherefore though they knock, he will not open;

and he shall answer and say unto you.
The Persic version adds, "nay, but be ye gone hence", for the following reason,

I know you not, whence you are:

not but that Christ being the omniscient God, will know who they are, from whence they come, of what country and place they be, and to whom they belong;

but the sense is, that he will not own them, and express any approbation of them, as his; but will treat them as strangers, that come, it is not known, from whence; he will reject them, as not being born from above, as not being the sheep of his fold, or members of his true church: they did not come from heaven, they were not heaven born souls, or partakers of the heavenly calling, and therefore shall not be received there; they belonged to the men of the world, and were of their father the devil, and shall be sent to him: so the foolish virgins, or formal professors of religion, and such as have been preachers of the Gospel, will entreat Christ at the last day, and shall have such an answer as this returned to them, which will be very awful and startling; (See Gill on Matthew 7:23), (See Gill on Matthew 25:12).


Christ will determine who they are...........man does not know..........but, sometimes we can make a good guess in certain cases?

 

[Mitspa]

Uh, no. Paul is a believer and he is saying this to other believers to examine themselves. He is challenging their salvation by telling them to examine themselves whether Christ is in them.

Paul also says, all Scripture is for correction and for training in righteousness.

Paul also says, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather, reprove them.

Paul also said at the end of 2 Corinthians 12,

"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found unto you such as you desire not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, conceit, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall mourn over many who have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and licentiousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

So Paul is desiring the Corinthians to see if they repented of of their uncleanness and licentiousness that they have committed. So Paul here is going to see (judge) their salvation if they repented or not.

As for the passage you quote: Well, that passage actually applies to those who have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. See 2 Timothy 3:1-9. For Jesus said you will know false prophets by their fruit.

Right your not Paul...and Paul tells you to examine your own self, not others

 

[SeaBass]

Is it ungodly to worship God with instruments?

Yes. all disobedience to God is ungodly. If one does not have to do as the bible says when it comes to singing, then why would one have to do anything the bible says? Not staying with the bible is how you end up with thousands of groups believing all sorts of things contradictory to each other....."Thy word is truth" and truth does not contradict itself like all these religious groups do, so it's not possible they all have "the truth".

The question is will the ungodly be saved? No, any Christian that lives ungodly will be lost.

 

[Sirk]

Yes. all disobedience to God is ungodly. If one does not have to do as the bible says when it comes to singing, then why would one have to do anything the bible says? Not staying with the bible is how you end up with thousands of groups believing all sorts of things contradictory to each other....."Thy word is truth" and truth does not contradict itself like all these religious groups do, so it's not possible they all have "the truth".

The question is will the ungodly be saved? No, any Christian that lives ungodly will be lost.

so...because I worship God with instruments but the congregation just uses their voices,are they cool cuz they're not playing instruments?

 

[Jason0047]

Right your not Paul...and Paul tells you to examine your own self, not others

You think Paul is different than other believers? Paul said be ye followers of him. Meaning, we can do what Paul can do because Christ lived within Him just as he lives in all true believers.

 

[Sirk]

You think Paul is different than other believers? Paul said be ye followers of him. Meaning, we can do what Paul can do because Christ lived within Him just as he lives in all true believers.

Are you as awesome as Paul was?

 

[flob]

To the contrary of the heretics:
believers who live ungodly will be disciplined.
But never lost.
Such a thing's impossible.
Heb 12

 

[valiant]

Uh, no. Paul is a believer and he is saying this to other believers to examine themselves. He is challenging their salvation by telling them to examine themselves whether Christ is in them.

No he is challenging those who profess to be Christians as to whether they truly are. 'whether you be in the faith' !!

Paul also says, all Scripture is for correction and for training in righteousness.

I wonder why you stopped there? Was the rest too much for you? What about 'make you wise unto salvation?' What about 'making the man of God equipped? Scripture has a far wider purpose than you suggest.

Paul also says, have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather, reprove them.

with which all can agree,

Paul also said at the end of 2 Corinthians 12,
"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found unto you such as you desire not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, conceit, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall mourn over many who have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and licentiousness which they have committed." (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

So he is concerned for their spiritual state, not their salvation.

So Paul is desiring the Corinthians to see if they repented of of their uncleanness and licentiousness that they have committed. So Paul here is going to see (judge) their salvation if they repented or not.

Show me one Scripture which says that Paul judged someone's salvation. These are people whom he had called 'sanctified ones' (1 Cor 1.2)

As for the passage you quote: Well, that passage actually applies to those who have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof. See 2 Timothy 3:1-9. For Jesus said you will know false prophets by their fruit.

Yes false prophets and professors, not true Christians.

 

[Mitspa]

You think Paul is different than other believers? Paul said be ye followers of him. Meaning, we can do what Paul can do because Christ lived within Him just as he lives in all true believers.

Yea He was an Apostle..are you claiming to be an Apostle? And as an apostle he wrote that you should examine YOURSELF...not examine others.

 

[Sirk]

Yes. all disobedience to God is ungodly. If one does not have to do as the bible says when it comes to singing, then why would one have to do anything the bible says? Not staying with the bible is how you end up with thousands of groups believing all sorts of things contradictory to each other....."Thy word is truth" and truth does not contradict itself like all these religious groups do, so it's not possible they all have "the truth".

The question is will the ungodly be saved? No, any Christian that lives ungodly will be lost.

So the people who attend my church that have rich vibrant prayer lives and relationships with Jesus. Who volunteer their time and money to help orphans and widows are going to hell because they worship God with instruments?

 

[p_rehbein]

To the contrary of the heretics:
believers who live ungodly will be disciplined.
But never lost.
Such a thing's impossible.
Heb 12

Wait........Wut?

Jesus is a heretic?

 

[valiant]

so...because I worship God with instruments but the congregation just uses their voices,are they cool cuz they're not playing instruments?

you're ok if you're playing the harp, or the lyre, or the psaltery, or the cymbals, or a stringed instrument, or a drum, or a trumpet, or a horn

 

[p_rehbein]

So the people who attend my church that have rich vibrant prayer lives and relationships with Jesus. Who volunteer their time and money to help orphans and widows are going to hell because they worship God with instruments?

Well, when they get there, they can have a good band going given that David built a bunch of instruments himself as I recall. And he played them in the "strangest" of places............

[h=1]Psalms
150[/h]
1 .) Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 .) Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 .) Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 .) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 .) Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 .) Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

 

[Jason0047]

Some insights as to who the "majority" are............from Gill's exposition of Luke 13:25


saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
they acknowledge Christ to be Lord, as all will at the last day, to the glory of God the Father, even professors and profane; they repeat the word, to show the vehemency and earnestness of their entreaty; and according to the Syriac and, Persic versions, they claim an interest in Christ, which read, "our Lord, our Lord"; and on account of which they doubted not, but the door would be opened: but alas! he was only their Lord in a professional way; they had only called him Lord, Lord, but had never truly and heartily yielded obedience to him; their hearts had never been opened to him, and he had never had a place there, nor his Gospel; wherefore though they knock, he will not open;

and he shall answer and say unto you.
The Persic version adds, "nay, but be ye gone hence", for the following reason,

I know you not, whence you are:

not but that Christ being the omniscient God, will know who they are, from whence they come, of what country and place they be, and to whom they belong;

but the sense is, that he will not own them, and express any approbation of them, as his; but will treat them as strangers, that come, it is not known, from whence; he will reject them, as not being born from above, as not being the sheep of his fold, or members of his true church: they did not come from heaven, they were not heaven born souls, or partakers of the heavenly calling, and therefore shall not be received there; they belonged to the men of the world, and were of their father the devil, and shall be sent to him: so the foolish virgins, or formal professors of religion, and such as have been preachers of the Gospel, will entreat Christ at the last day, and shall have such an answer as this returned to them, which will be very awful and startling; (See Gill on Matthew 7:23), (See Gill on Matthew 25:12).


Christ will determine who they are...........man does not know..........but, sometimes we can make a good guess in certain cases?

No. We can know what the Bible says plainly by the Spirit. The Scriptures say we will be guided into all truth by the Spirit. In 1 John 2:27, John tells the brethren that they have an anointing from God and they need not that anyone needs to teach them and that they are taught all things.

Also, the Bible means what it says. Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say? In other words, a person who does not do what Jesus says cannot call Him, Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

so...because I worship God with instruments but the congregation just uses their voices,are they cool cuz they're not playing instruments?

Does God's commands to Christians matter?

 

[SeaBass]

To the contrary of the heretics:
believers who live ungodly will be disciplined.
But never lost.
Such a thing's impossible.
Heb 12

So the ungodly in Sodom and Gomorrah were disciplined, not lost?