The Paul You Never Knew

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Jun 19, 2015
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The subject here is the Torah. The first 5 books of the Bible that a lot of people say were only for the Jews, or were "done away with" by Jesus Christ (the hebrew word for Torah is Law). In my studies, I notice a lot of things about the Apostle Paul that seem to disagree with this ideology. I want to hear from those who honestly believe that Paul taught the church not to follow those guidelines. The following is a list of 20 biblical facts about Paul. Please show me how these scriptures are compatible with certain commandments of God being abolished or removed.


1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.

(Acts 23:6) Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."

2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him.

(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

3. Paul called God's law holy.

(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means! Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84 times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church. (And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:21) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this, and said he does live according to the law.
(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded" and hostile to God.

(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days after joining the church.

(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.

(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness, and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says "you are not under law but under grace". Millions of people repeat this statement over and over again everyday. But when they quote this scripture, they almost always leave out the scripture that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come". Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

(Colossians 2:16-17) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law, instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 2:16) Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law, were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

(Galatians 4: 8-11) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation. Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind, and causes you to walk in them.

(Hebrews 10:16) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
 
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purgedconscience

Guest
#2
I personally believe that a lot of Old Testament commandments have carried over into the New Testament and the epistles easily confirm the same, but you've definitely misapplied some of the verses which you quoted.
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#3
The subject here is the Torah. The first 5 books of the Bible that a lot of people say were only for the Jews, or were "done away with" by Jesus Christ (the hebrew word for Torah is Law). In my studies, I notice a lot of things about the Apostle Paul that seem to disagree with this ideology. I want to hear from those who honestly believe that Paul taught the church not to follow those guidelines. The following is a list of 20 biblical facts about Paul. Please show me how these scriptures are compatible with certain commandments of God being abolished or removed.


1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.
Did he? I think not.

Philippians 3, NASB
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

That pretty much negates the claims you make in the rest of your post, claims that make Paul appear a Law-keeper. But he was not. In fact, he called the Law "weak" and unable to save.

Romans 8
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For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Paul did not keep or follow the Law after he became a Christ-follower. Why? Because it is nothing more than a measuring rod for the believer.

Galatians 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The word translated "tutor" is an interesting Greek amalgam. It is paidagogoß (paidogogos). It describes a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

The Law was, before Christ, the paidagogoß for the Jews. It should have pointed them to Christ when He came, but they rejected Him. So His message went to the Gentiles, and thus it came to us. We have no need of a paidagogoß because in Christ we are made mature, through the power of Holy Spirit who sanctifies us.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#4
Paul did not keep or follow the Law after he became a Christ-follower.
Notice which day Paul and Barnabas used for preaching to Gentiles:
1) Acts 13:14-15, 42-44: “But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia,
and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying,
Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

Then Paul stood up, and spoke, preaching Christ to them.
“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that

these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.”
Now since Paul was preaching “the grace of God” (verse 43),

here was his opportunity to straighten out these Gentiles,
and explain that the Sabbath was done away.

Why should he wait a whole week, in order to preach to the Gentiles
on the next Sabbath? If the day had now been changed to Sunday,

why did not Paul tell them they would not have to wait a week, but
the very next day, Sunday, was the proper day for this service?

But notice what Paul did.

“And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.”

Here Paul waited a whole week, passing up a Sunday,
in order to preach to the Gentiles on the Sabbath day.
 
C

CRC

Guest
#5
Paul explained how he took into consideration the people he taught. He wrote: “I have become all things to people of all sorts, that I might by all means save some. But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with others.” (1 Cor. 9:22, 23) Paul found pleasure in helping people spiritually, and he gave serious thought to how he would provide for the specific needs of his listeners. The law was the product of the “Greatest Intellect” inside and outside of the universe and Paul’s quoting or demonstrating how Bible principles and prophecies found in the Mosaic Law still found application in the first century Christian Congregation was not a perpetuation of the “Law of Moses”.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#6
Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised,
even though he was a Greek.

(Galatians 2:3)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#7
4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You know Paul didn't write 1John.. write...I mean right?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#8
16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come". Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

(Colossians 2:16-17) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

not only that we shouldn't judge someone for honoring a sabbath day - or allow anyone to judge us, but neither for someone not honoring one either.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike.
Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

(Romans 14:5)


 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#9
Paul was present in agreement when Peter gave these words...

Acts 15:2, 9-11 (KJV)
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

So whatever Paul did out of necessity of furthering the Gospel, he did not expect the Gentiles to live under the Mosaic law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#10
14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
whoever wrote Hebrews also mentions that they were doing this uselessly, because there is no more sacrifice for sin that remains (Hebrews 10:26) because Christ has made one sacrifice for all, and there has been a change in priesthood and a change in the law (Hebrews 7:12) therefore the old covenant under which the Levites offered sacrifices is obsolete and passes away (Hebrews 8:13)
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#11
Notice which day Paul and Barnabas used for preaching to Gentiles:
1) Acts 13:14-15, 42-44: “But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia,
and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying,
Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

Then Paul stood up, and spoke, preaching Christ to them.
“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that

these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.”
Now since Paul was preaching “the grace of God” (verse 43),

here was his opportunity to straighten out these Gentiles,
and explain that the Sabbath was done away.

Why should he wait a whole week, in order to preach to the Gentiles
on the next Sabbath? If the day had now been changed to Sunday,

why did not Paul tell them they would not have to wait a week, but
the very next day, Sunday, was the proper day for this service?

But notice what Paul did.

“And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.”

Here Paul waited a whole week, passing up a Sunday,
in order to preach to the Gentiles on the Sabbath day.
Paul, I believe, was being respectful of their tradition as opposed to endorsing Saturday as the day of worship. In fact, every day is the day of worship, not just one solitary day out of the week. Didn't Paul say this?

Colossians 2, NASB
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

I'm not sure how you see the context there, but Paul's reference goes back to v. 13 and 14 at least, in which he states emphatically that Christ has "made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us," the word "decrees" being the Greek dogma (dogma) which specifically refers to the "rules and requirements of the Law of Moses" (Thayer, Smith).

That means that all the Law -- moral, civil, and ceremonial -- was fulfilled in Christ, and that includes the keeping of the Sabbath on a specific day. Just as Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, expanded the Ten Commandments beyond anything the Jewish community had ever considered, so He expands the ceremonial Law to mean that all days, not just Saturday, are days of worship.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#12
Paul, I believe, was being respectful of their tradition as opposed to endorsing Saturday as the day of worship. In fact, every day is the day of worship, not just one solitary day out of the week. Didn't Paul say this?
Colossians 2, NASB
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

I'm not sure how you see the context there, but Paul's reference goes back to v. 13 and 14 at least, in which he states emphatically that Christ has "made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us," the word "decrees" being the Greek dogma (dogma) which specifically refers to the "rules and requirements of the Law of Moses" (Thayer, Smith).

That means that all the Law -- moral, civil, and ceremonial -- was fulfilled in Christ, and that includes the keeping of the Sabbath on a specific day. Just as Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, expanded the Ten Commandments beyond anything the Jewish community had ever considered, so He expands the ceremonial Law to mean that all days, not just Saturday, are days of worship.
Yes, that was Paul's modus operandi...

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 (KJV)
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
 
Jun 19, 2015
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#13
@Prove-all

Thanks for your reply. I know this understanding of Paul's letters isn't popular, but I don't see any other way of explaining all the contradictions. I'm still trying to address a lot of the passages that are used to teach against certain commandments of God. I see that when you add the context they have different meanings.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#14
I see someone doesn't mind lying to set up new IDs.

Welcome back, Eliwood.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#15
@Prove-all

Thanks for your reply. I know this understanding of Paul's letters isn't popular, but I don't see any other way of explaining all the contradictions.
With due respect, there are no contradictions.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#16
Isn't it ironic that some "Torah observers" are so insistent on the Sabbath's applicability to Christians, but they were willing to lie and be deceptive in order to set up a new handle when they've been banned?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#17
@Prove-all

Thanks for your reply. I know this understanding of Paul's letters isn't popular, but I don't see any other way of explaining all the contradictions. I'm still trying to address a lot of the passages that are used to teach against certain commandments of God. I see that when you add the context they have different meanings.

no thanks to the rest of us who replied? lol

what do you do with a passage like this:
Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.
(1 Corinthians 7:18-19)​

when you want to insist that Paul continued not only to observe all of the law of Moses, but also to subject Gentile believers to it?

not only is it specifically written that Titus wasn't circumcised ((see post #6)), but here in the letter to those in Corinth, Paul makes it plain that circumcision - the sign of covenant under Moses - means nothing? he even goes so far as to say that "obeying God's commands" is what matters, but clearly no longer considers circumcision of the body to be a command of God.

what can anyone who wishes to impose Torah-observation on Gentile Christians possibly say about something like this?

not that it's all i could say. but i don't want to pile up an hundred objections all at once, or we'll never get around to talking about any of them.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,843
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#18
With due respect, there are no contradictions.
well, technically there are contradictions, but the contradictions are not in the scripture.

they're in wrong interpretations of the Word.
;)
 
Jun 19, 2015
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#19

no thanks to the rest of us who replied? lol

what do you do with a passage like this:
Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.
(1 Corinthians 7:18-19)​

when you want to insist that Paul continued not only to observe all of the law of Moses, but also to subject Gentile believers to it?

not only is it specifically written that Titus wasn't circumcised ((see post #6)), but here in the letter to those in Corinth, Paul makes it plain that circumcision - the sign of covenant under Moses - means nothing? he even goes so far as to say that "obeying God's commands" is what matters, but clearly no longer considers circumcision of the body to be a command of God.

what can anyone who wishes to impose Torah-observation on Gentile Christians possibly say about something like this?

not that it's all i could say. but i don't want to pile up an hundred objections all at once, or we'll never get around to talking about any of them.
Hi posthuman. You're feedback is appreciated too, and I respect your opinion concerning the law of God. If one makes a personal decision not to follow certain biblical commandments, they can certaintly find the scriptures that seem to agree with that ideology. But as shown above, there also many pro-law statments found in the NT, which prompted me to make this thread, and search for an understanding that wouldn't cause certain scriptures to disagree with eachother.

In regard to the scripture you posted from corinthinas, here's something to consider: Nearly all the scriptures that modern theologians use to justify the abolishment of the torah come from Paul's letters, and yet these same letters come with a warning label attached to them saying that they are difficult to understand, and can be easily misused. This is why I personally don't hold with using such scriptures by themselves to come to the conclusion that God's law is not for today. I instead take all scripture into account and try to find an understanding that won't cause contradictions. I hope that makes sense. God bless you. :)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#20
I think the OP needs to read all of Galatians and all of Hebrews. These books were addressed to the Judiazers.

That is what this OP is about. It is about trying to Judiaze other Christians. The Hebrew Roots movement has been dealt with thoroughly in this forum. Try searching and see what you find, so we don't have to repost everything.

By the way, if you suspect someone has been banned, and come back under a different name, that person should be reported to the mods. I was reading in an atheist forum the other day, and someone was bragging about how he had been back here 3 times under different names to harass the Christians and he planned on coming back.

Not saying this is the case of the OP, but if he is banned, that is permanent, not just under one name.