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Let us contemplate the words of Jesus................as to OSAS.........
[h=1]Matthew
13[/h]
1 .) The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 .) And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 .) And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 .) And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 .) Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 .) And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 .) And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 .) But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 .) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 .) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 .) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 .) For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 .) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 .) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 .) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 .) But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 .) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 .) Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 .) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 .) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 .) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 .) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 .) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Yeah, I loved Adrian Rogers, but I'm going with Jesus on this one. Thanks anyway.
Matthew 24:12 .) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 .) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[h=1]Matthew
13[/h]
1 .) The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 .) And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 .) And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 .) And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 .) Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 .) And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 .) And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 .) But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 .) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 .) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 .) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 .) For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 .) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 .) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 .) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 .) But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 .) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 .) Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 .) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 .) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 .) Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 .) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 .) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Yeah, I loved Adrian Rogers, but I'm going with Jesus on this one. Thanks anyway.
Matthew 24:12 .) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 .) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
John 6:39; "And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that He has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Philippians 1:6; "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the Day of Christ Jesus."
1 Peter 1:3-5; "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil, or fade - kept in Heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Ephesians 1:13, 14; "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory."
Ephesians 4:30; "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the the Day of Redemption."
If Christians do not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the Day of Redemption (Christ's second coming) but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.
John 5:24; "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life."
Hebrews 7:25; "Therefore, He (Jesus) is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."
For a Christian to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible in any way for salvation, then it can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation (as the Bible teaches) then the person is forever secure.
Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ has purchased? Absolutely not! Since the debt was fully paid, for God to demand it again from us would be unrighteous. The same righteousness that formally called for our condemnation now calls for our justification.
When we were saved, we not only received something, we also became something. We became children of God, born of His eternal life (John 1:12,13). A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life which he has imparted. Although the child may misbehave, the child is still the fathers. In the same way we are God's children. Although we may have many weaknesses and may require His discipline, our sins and weaknesses cannot change the fact that we are His children. The life we received by our second birth is the eternal life, the indestructible life, the life of God, the life that can never die. Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born".
He loved us enough to save us, He surely loves us enough to keep us in that same salvation. Christ Himself promised to keep us, uphold us, and never leave us. Although men often are unrighteous in keeping their promises, Christ can never fail to accomplish what He pledges.
Jesus said: "He who comes to me, I shall by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
The Lord's promises are unconditional. He will not, under any circumstances, ever cast us out or cease to uphold us.
God is unwilling to allow anything or anyone to snatch us from Him (John 28, 29). The hand of the Father and the hand of the Lord Jesus are two strong hands holding us fast. Even if we try to run away from our Father, it would be impossible. Not only is God stronger than Satan, He is also stronger than us.
(Written with assistance from various sources)
Philippians 1:6; "Being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the Day of Christ Jesus."
1 Peter 1:3-5; "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil, or fade - kept in Heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith to salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Ephesians 1:13, 14; "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory."
Ephesians 4:30; "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the the Day of Redemption."
If Christians do not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the Day of Redemption (Christ's second coming) but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.
John 5:24; "He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life."
Hebrews 7:25; "Therefore, He (Jesus) is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them."
For a Christian to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible in any way for salvation, then it can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation (as the Bible teaches) then the person is forever secure.
Now, can God take back this salvation which Christ has purchased? Absolutely not! Since the debt was fully paid, for God to demand it again from us would be unrighteous. The same righteousness that formally called for our condemnation now calls for our justification.
When we were saved, we not only received something, we also became something. We became children of God, born of His eternal life (John 1:12,13). A human father may be able to take back a gift he has given to his child, but he can never take back the human life which he has imparted. Although the child may misbehave, the child is still the fathers. In the same way we are God's children. Although we may have many weaknesses and may require His discipline, our sins and weaknesses cannot change the fact that we are His children. The life we received by our second birth is the eternal life, the indestructible life, the life of God, the life that can never die. Once we are born again, we can never be "un-born".
He loved us enough to save us, He surely loves us enough to keep us in that same salvation. Christ Himself promised to keep us, uphold us, and never leave us. Although men often are unrighteous in keeping their promises, Christ can never fail to accomplish what He pledges.
Jesus said: "He who comes to me, I shall by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
The Lord's promises are unconditional. He will not, under any circumstances, ever cast us out or cease to uphold us.
God is unwilling to allow anything or anyone to snatch us from Him (John 28, 29). The hand of the Father and the hand of the Lord Jesus are two strong hands holding us fast. Even if we try to run away from our Father, it would be impossible. Not only is God stronger than Satan, He is also stronger than us.
(Written with assistance from various sources)
QUOTE:
Jesus said: "He who comes to me, I shall by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
The Lord's promises are unconditional. He will not, under any circumstances, ever cast us out or cease to uphold us.
God is unwilling to allow anything or anyone to snatch us from Him (John 28, 29). The hand of the Father and the hand of the Lord Jesus are two strong hands holding us fast. Even if we try to run away from our Father, it would be impossible. Not only is God stronger than Satan, He is also stronger than us.
END QUOTATION........
However, this does not address the willful turning away/falling away spoken of in Scripture. It is simply an assurance that God WILL NEVER forsake us...........it does not speak to our FORSAKING HIM.
(just saying)
I'm going with Jesus on this
Jesus said: "He who comes to me, I shall by no means cast out." (John 6:37)
The Lord's promises are unconditional. He will not, under any circumstances, ever cast us out or cease to uphold us.
God is unwilling to allow anything or anyone to snatch us from Him (John 28, 29). The hand of the Father and the hand of the Lord Jesus are two strong hands holding us fast. Even if we try to run away from our Father, it would be impossible. Not only is God stronger than Satan, He is also stronger than us.
END QUOTATION........
However, this does not address the willful turning away/falling away spoken of in Scripture. It is simply an assurance that God WILL NEVER forsake us...........it does not speak to our FORSAKING HIM.
(just saying)
I'm going with Jesus on this
Jesus' death made all the OT inactive ending both the musical instruments and animal sacrifices and no one has the power to bring it back, undo what Christ did on His cross and make it active again. Christ did not just bring to an end parts of the OT but all of it.
If "no one" can snatch us out of His hand, that would certainly include ourselves. Unless you are somehow not a created being.
And by your reasoning "never" doesn't mean never, and "guarantee" isn't a guarantee.
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Well, no. To all of your comment. Context is everything, and I do not believe Jesus would lie about such a thing as this, so I'm going with Him.
The contest is blindingly clear. Our salvation and it's eternality, is based solely upon the power of God, and not ourselves.
I'm guessing you deny man's "free will." That's ok, and we will agree to disagree.........I'm still going with Jesus.
(edited)
Oh, to accept your blindingly clear summation, one must believe that God SAVES those who willingly reject Him as well.
That isn't something I'm accepting.
(edited)
Oh, to accept your blindingly clear summation, one must believe that God SAVES those who willingly reject Him as well.
That isn't something I'm accepting.
Well, taking that to it's logical conclusion, will we be able to use our free will to rebel in heaven as Satan did?
No, that is taking it to the absurd, not it's logical conclusion. The logical conclusion is reached with the separation of the wheat and the chaff...........
Again, we will just have to agree to disagree...........
It's not absurd at all. If maintaining our salvation is based upon us in any way, there is thus no reason why we couldn't use our free will to rebel in heaven and lose our salvation. The same sins that separated us from God originally, are the same sins we commit today. The only difference in our lives that gives us access to God is through the power of the blood of Jesus alone. He is the author, He is the finisher. His guarantee through His sacrifice. His glory, not ours.
You quoted the NIV which replaced the subjunctive mood with an indicative mood as it perverted Jn 3:16 the same way.
KJV "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
The verbs "seeth" and "looketh" are present tense showing an ongoing sustained action.
"may have" is subjunctive mood not indicative. "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."- Strong's. One MAY have everlasting life depending on the circumstance if he continues seeing and believing, he may NOT have everlasting life if he quits seeing and believing.
Verse 5 goes with verse 6, they had faithfully remained in the gospel from the first day until now therefore Paul was confident God would continue that good work in them. Some in Galatia had not continued in the gospel, Gal 1:5,6 and Paul said they had fallen (past tense) from grace, God was not continuing to perform that good work in those Galatians.budman said:
budman said:
the inheritance, heaven never perish but one can lose his promise of that inheritance.
budman said:
The group called "Christian" is sealed yet one can fall from this sealed group and no longer be sealed. Some 25 or so years later in Rev 2:1-7 if the church at Ephesus did not repent as threatened by Christ then their candlestick (church) would be remove no longer recognize by God as His church and they would no longer be sealed.
budman said:
The group Christian is sealed and one must faithfully remain in the group to remain sealed. One can become unfaithful and fall from this sealed group. The group remains sealed but not those that fall from it will not.
budman said:
The group "Christian" is sealed and remains sealed but not those that fall from this sealed group. No individual is Unconditionally sealed apart from the group. God sealed the group not individuals outside the group.
budman said:
The verbs hear and believe are present tense requiring an ongoing sustained hearing and believing, therefore if one ever quits hearing and believing he will not have everlasting life. One must CONDITIONALLY keep on hearing and beliving to have everlasting life for everlasting life is not given Unconditionally.
budman said:
The verb come is present tense requiring one to have a CONDITIONAL ongoing, sustained coming to God. As long as one CONDITIONALLY comes to God Christ is able to save him for salvation is not UNconditional where one can quit coming to God and be saved anyway.
God does the saving but He saves those that have a CONDITIONAL sustained, ongoing seeing, hearing, believing, coming to Christ and not those that quit.budman said:
budman said:
Nowhere did God ever promise to UNconditionally save those that quit seeing, hearing, beliving and coming to Christ.
budman said:
Physically one cannot become unborn but one can spiritually when a child of God turns his back upon God when he quits seeing, hearing believing and coming to Christ.
budman said:
Christ does not forsake the Christian, the Christian leaves forsaking Christ.
budman said:
The verb comes is present tense so as long as one CONDITONALLY comes to Christ he will not be cast out but that quit coming to Christ will be cast out.
budman said:
No they are not unconditional for Christ never promise to UNConditonally save those that quit seeing hearing believing and coming to Him.
As long as one is CONDITIONALLY faithful in his hearing and following Christ (verse 27) he cannot be snatched from God's hand, but if one quits hearing and following he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep and removes himself from God's hand. No where did God Unconditionally promise no one can snatch those that quit hearing and following Christ from His hand.budman said:
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John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 6:37-39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise [never] cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Luke 11:13, 1 Corinthians 12]
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2 Corinthians 1:22 And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? [the devil, deceivers] It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
1 John 5:10-13 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Psalm 34:22 The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Hebrews 7:24-25 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eternal security is not in any of these verses, one must be reading it into these verses. Many of these verses show that salvation is CONDITIONAL upon one having a present tense, sustained ongoing "hearing", "believing" and "coming" to Christ.
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Gr8grace
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KJV "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
We need to go beyond 1 year of Greek to exegete this verse.
"THAT" introduces a PURPOSE CLAUSE. This not stating the current condition of the believer. It is stating the PURPOSE of God sending His Son.
The indicative mood can't be used in a purpose clause, that is why we see the subjunctive mood in " May have eternal life."
God sent His Son for the PURPOSE/PROBABILITY of giving the believer eternal life.
Again, this NOT stating the condition of the believer at a given time. It is stating the PURPOSE of God sending His Son.