POLL: The Deity of Christ
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I started not to even bother to answer this question because you really do not seem interested in learning anything or seriously looking for information but, for others who may be interested in the answer to this question both Joseph and Mary are descended from David but Joseph's linage, unlike that of Mary's, follows the line of kings while that of Mary is split in the sons of David. Neither Mary not Joseph are descended from Levi the father of the priestly tribe. Both are descended through the tribe of Judah the kingly tribe.
I am asking must it not be human conception for the Son to be fully human?
The God-man must be fully God and fully human, with two natures.
And the Edomites?
Is there any reason that the text is not referring to the complete authority given him regarding the Kingdom in time (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13;3, 13), which is the change of authority which will occur when the Kingdom is delivered up to the Father, and Jesus reigns as the Son (Rev 11:5; Da 7:14, 27) and subject king in authority, as prefigured by Solomon in 2Sam 2:13-14?
Not as a subordinate being, but subject in authority and function.
Is there any reason giving up his infinite glory (Jn 17:5) and submitting to finite limited manhood (2Co 8:9) would not qualify as a change of status that is outside the norm for the Trinity?
But could he surrender his deity and remain the God-man?
Is there any reason it cannot mean a surrender of his equality in glory (Jn 17:5) only?
For though equal in deity, the Son proceeds from the Father,
and is subject to the Father in authority and function in the Trinity.
Does that also include following in his priority, preeminence and sovereignty as firstborn over all creation (Col 1:6-18)?
Is there any reason it does not also mean actually born first?
"Firstborn" (plural) in Heb 12:23 is referring to believers, to the church,
prefigured in the firstborn consecrated to the Lord (Ex 13:2),
who have been delivered from the destroying angel (Ex 12:21-29), Satan (1Pe 5:8; Jn 10:10), and
bought back (redeemed) from eternal death, by Christ our priest (Levite),
who was substituted for us (Nu 3:9-13, 41, 44-51, 8:15-19),
to whom God has exclusive right by purchase (Nu 18:14-15; 1Co 6:20, 7:2; Ac 20:28b; 1Pe 2:9; Rev 5:9, 14:4)
and who are, therefore, consecrated to the Lord (Ex 13:2; Ro 6:13; 2Co 5:15).
How do we know that?
Is there any reason it cannot mean that?
The God-man must be fully God and fully human, with two natures.
And the Edomites?
Is there any reason that the text is not referring to the complete authority given him regarding the Kingdom in time (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13;3, 13), which is the change of authority which will occur when the Kingdom is delivered up to the Father, and Jesus reigns as the Son (Rev 11:5; Da 7:14, 27) and subject king in authority, as prefigured by Solomon in 2Sam 2:13-14?
Not as a subordinate being, but subject in authority and function.
Is there any reason giving up his infinite glory (Jn 17:5) and submitting to finite limited manhood (2Co 8:9) would not qualify as a change of status that is outside the norm for the Trinity?
But could he surrender his deity and remain the God-man?
Is there any reason it cannot mean a surrender of his equality in glory (Jn 17:5) only?
For though equal in deity, the Son proceeds from the Father,
and is subject to the Father in authority and function in the Trinity.
Does that also include following in his priority, preeminence and sovereignty as firstborn over all creation (Col 1:6-18)?
Is there any reason it does not also mean actually born first?
"Firstborn" (plural) in Heb 12:23 is referring to believers, to the church,
prefigured in the firstborn consecrated to the Lord (Ex 13:2),
who have been delivered from the destroying angel (Ex 12:21-29), Satan (1Pe 5:8; Jn 10:10), and
bought back (redeemed) from eternal death, by Christ our priest (Levite),
who was substituted for us (Nu 3:9-13, 41, 44-51, 8:15-19),
to whom God has exclusive right by purchase (Nu 18:14-15; 1Co 6:20, 7:2; Ac 20:28b; 1Pe 2:9; Rev 5:9, 14:4)
and who are, therefore, consecrated to the Lord (Ex 13:2; Ro 6:13; 2Co 5:15).
How do we know that?
Is there any reason it cannot mean that?
Is there any reason Ro 1:4 cannot mean Jesus was the Son of God since his conception, but was declared (marked out) with (special resurrection) power the day of the resurrection, emphasis being on the power and, therefore, proof of that declaration as distinct, say, from the declaration at his baptism?
Very well, let us continue.
THE HUMANITY OF JESUS
Infancy
While the events surrounding his birth were extra-ordinary, there was nothing in the natural process of human growth and development that went beyond the realm of normal human experience. Only the conception was exceptional.
1. He was conceived in a human egg. This was a natural, biological conception, but from a non-natural source – the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:31,35.
2. He underwent the normal human gestation period in the womb, Luke 2:6.
3. His was a normal birth. He was an infant with everything it implied, Luke 2:6-7.
4. Mary underwent the normal, ceremonial sacrificial purification required for women after childbirth according to the Law of Moses, Luke 2:27-32.
5. At the same time, Jesus was presented to the Lord at the temple according to the Law of Moses, which required the firstborn male of both man and beast to be dedicated to the Lord, Luke 2:27-32.
6. At this time, he underwent the normal ritualistic circumcision at eight days old according to the Abrahamic covenant and the Law of Moses, Luke 2:22-27.
Adolescence
1. He experienced the normal growth process of all human children, Luke 2:40-42.
2. He demonstrated normal youthful indiscretions, Luke 2:43-49. This behavior represents normal adolescent reasoning and behavior.
3. He demonstrated the normal inquisitive nature of a pre-teen child, Luke 2:46-50. Listening to the teachers in the temple - He was hungry for knowledge and understanding.- Asking questions, looking for answers (perhaps about the afore-mentioned Passover proceedings). As a part of the human collective, he is not omnipotent. As a child his understanding came by way of instruction in the Law, not inspiration. This speaks well of parental influence. Even his answers astonished the teachers.
4. Submissiveness to his parents, Luke 2:51. He was obedient to them.
5. Normal process of physical and spiritual development - He increased in wisdom.- He grew in favor with God and man. This reflects a conscious effort.
Adult
1. He met all human obligations of the Law, Matthew 3:15.
2. He was attested by the Father and the Spirit to be the bio-representation of God.
3. He received the Holy Spirit as a man. This follows the same pattern as all of the prophets of the Old Testament, John 1: 32-34; 4:14.
4. He endured temptation as a man, Matthew 4:1-4 and Luke 4:1-13.
5. He died as a man, Matthew 27:50.
THE HUMANITY OF JESUS
Infancy
While the events surrounding his birth were extra-ordinary, there was nothing in the natural process of human growth and development that went beyond the realm of normal human experience. Only the conception was exceptional.
1. He was conceived in a human egg. This was a natural, biological conception, but from a non-natural source – the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:31,35.
2. He underwent the normal human gestation period in the womb, Luke 2:6.
3. His was a normal birth. He was an infant with everything it implied, Luke 2:6-7.
4. Mary underwent the normal, ceremonial sacrificial purification required for women after childbirth according to the Law of Moses, Luke 2:27-32.
5. At the same time, Jesus was presented to the Lord at the temple according to the Law of Moses, which required the firstborn male of both man and beast to be dedicated to the Lord, Luke 2:27-32.
6. At this time, he underwent the normal ritualistic circumcision at eight days old according to the Abrahamic covenant and the Law of Moses, Luke 2:22-27.
Adolescence
1. He experienced the normal growth process of all human children, Luke 2:40-42.
2. He demonstrated normal youthful indiscretions, Luke 2:43-49. This behavior represents normal adolescent reasoning and behavior.
3. He demonstrated the normal inquisitive nature of a pre-teen child, Luke 2:46-50. Listening to the teachers in the temple - He was hungry for knowledge and understanding.- Asking questions, looking for answers (perhaps about the afore-mentioned Passover proceedings). As a part of the human collective, he is not omnipotent. As a child his understanding came by way of instruction in the Law, not inspiration. This speaks well of parental influence. Even his answers astonished the teachers.
4. Submissiveness to his parents, Luke 2:51. He was obedient to them.
5. Normal process of physical and spiritual development - He increased in wisdom.- He grew in favor with God and man. This reflects a conscious effort.
Adult
1. He met all human obligations of the Law, Matthew 3:15.
2. He was attested by the Father and the Spirit to be the bio-representation of God.
3. He received the Holy Spirit as a man. This follows the same pattern as all of the prophets of the Old Testament, John 1: 32-34; 4:14.
4. He endured temptation as a man, Matthew 4:1-4 and Luke 4:1-13.
5. He died as a man, Matthew 27:50.
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P
I've stayed away from this thread for a few days because I didn't want to get into strife with anybody when I briefly contributed here before, but I'll answer this question for you scripturally from the Old Testament and how it pertains to Christ as I tried to explain it once before to somebody here.
Psalm 2 verses 1 thru 3
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
The Apostles understood the opening part of this Psalm to be referring to the time when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel banded together in relation to Christ's crucifixion. That's what the ragings, imaginings, settings and counselings were all about. You can read that in Acts chapter 4 verses 23 thru 28. This brings us to the begotten part and how it pertains to Jesus:
Psalm 2 verses 4 thru 7
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
When Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel joined forces against the LORD and His Christ in relation to Christ's crucifixion, God laughed and declared a decree unto Jesus. The LORD, God, said unto Jesus, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Paul explained this for us in Acts chapter 13 verses 29 thru 33:
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
But God raised him from the dead:
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
God's promise was that His Son would be begotten and that promise was fulfilled when Jesus was raised from the dead.
It's right there and all of the references to Jesus being begotten in scripture perfectly align themselves with this as well.
Psalm 2 verses 1 thru 3
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
The Apostles understood the opening part of this Psalm to be referring to the time when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel banded together in relation to Christ's crucifixion. That's what the ragings, imaginings, settings and counselings were all about. You can read that in Acts chapter 4 verses 23 thru 28. This brings us to the begotten part and how it pertains to Jesus:
Psalm 2 verses 4 thru 7
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
When Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel joined forces against the LORD and His Christ in relation to Christ's crucifixion, God laughed and declared a decree unto Jesus. The LORD, God, said unto Jesus, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Paul explained this for us in Acts chapter 13 verses 29 thru 33:
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
But God raised him from the dead:
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
God's promise was that His Son would be begotten and that promise was fulfilled when Jesus was raised from the dead.
It's right there and all of the references to Jesus being begotten in scripture perfectly align themselves with this as well.
I'm sorry. I think I directed you to the wrong post I covered this on an earlier post.
We find two different words used in the NT that are translated as "begotten" in connection to Jesus. The first word we find in John 1:14 which is μονογενοῦς and according to [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS word studies means "one-and-only" and /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind). This establishes the uniqueness of his nature in contrast to that of man.[/FONT]
The other word is [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]γεγέννηκά which we find in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5. This word[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is a metaphor meaning to engender, to cause to rise (resurrection - from ἀνάστασις meaning to stand again). We have already discussed the fact that the word “today,” refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead hence it is connected to time. Since we learn from scripture that Jesus is eternal just as the Father is eternal then Jesus is not begotten by virtue of creation, rather he is begotten in relationship to a new type of relationship - He is the first one of a now order of creatures - sons of God. [/FONT]
We find two different words used in the NT that are translated as "begotten" in connection to Jesus. The first word we find in John 1:14 which is μονογενοῦς and according to [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HELPS word studies means "one-and-only" and /génos, "offspring, stock") – properly, one-and-only; "one of a kind" – literally, "one (monos) of a class, genos" (the only of its kind). This establishes the uniqueness of his nature in contrast to that of man.[/FONT]
The other word is [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]γεγέννηκά which we find in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5. This word[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is a metaphor meaning to engender, to cause to rise (resurrection - from ἀνάστασις meaning to stand again). We have already discussed the fact that the word “today,” refers to Jesus' resurrection from the dead hence it is connected to time. Since we learn from scripture that Jesus is eternal just as the Father is eternal then Jesus is not begotten by virtue of creation, rather he is begotten in relationship to a new type of relationship - He is the first one of a now order of creatures - sons of God. [/FONT]