Thanks Blain for the sensible attitude!
Matt 24 vs 3 the disciples ask Jesus what shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the world?
NO They did not.
He was asked 'when will these things (the destruction of Herod's Temple) be?' This was their primary interest as is made clear by Mark and Luke. What you describe was merely an add on. How can we get decent exegesis when the main question is omitted? It is simply quite frankly bad exegesis.
Right there it is made clear to us that when Jesus comes for us it is the end of the world, the Day of the Lord, which is great and terrible (check out Joel 2). But they are asking for a sign so they would know it was happening.
you see how you ignore the context and simply make you own conclusion? The main emphasis was on when the Temple they were looking at would be destroyed. But then most prophetic teaching is based on fitting Scripture into a theory and distorting it.
Vs 4 Matt 24 Jesus responds with "take heed that no man deceive you"...so we are not to go after some doctrine of man that speaks contrary to His words to follow:
Vs 5 "For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" So He is warning us here not to look for Him before the appointed time because if we do we will be deceived.
He is actually telling His Apostles and the early church not to be caught out by charlatans at a time when Messiahs and false prophets were arising. It was such who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and brought great tribulation on the Jews..
The 1st century AD was full of wars. Jesus was warning the disciples that it would be so even before the Temple was destroyed..
So even when we see these terrible things happening, the end is not yet, but it is the beginning of sorrows, which is the start of the great tribulation.
what a distortion of the facts. it was in 1st century Ad Before the Temple was destroyed and was long before the tribulation you are talking about.
this was the experience of the Apostles and the early church prior to the destruction of the Temple. In the light of the question of the Apostles how can you say otherwise?. You are simply closing your eyes to the truth to fit your theories..
So this is spoken by Jesus, not referring to the disciples clearly because it hasn't all happened yet.
of course it was referring to the disciples and the early church. This was precisely what they went through. Even in the limited information that we have it was constantly their experience.
..but to us who are the church. When it says because iniquity will abound, the love of many will wax cold, it is speaking of the great falling away, that things will be so bad people will turn away from their faith once held. Therefore those of us (who remain) who go through this, if we endure by faith through these times, we will be saved.
well it was spoken to us as well, but only secondarily. In Laodicea the love of many waxed cold, and that was the warning to the seven churches of John's day..
this was of course the necessary assurance that the Gospel would triumph. Paul spoke of the faith of the Romans going out to all the world in his day (Rom 1.8) before the destruction of the Temple. It is of course true that for us it has a greater fulfilment. But that is no excuse for suggesting that Jesus is only referring to our day.
NOW we are getting the answer to the first question. When will the destruction of Herod's Temple be? This is especially made clear by comparison with Luke 21. Jerusalem the holy city was surrounded by idolatrous emblems in 70 AD, and they were carried into the Holy Place itself.
this makes clear that the troubles were limited to Palestine. they could be escaped by fleeing into the mountains.
This is all addressed to us, the church who will be still here at the time, that the end is coming after the gospel has been preached to all nations, and we are urged to note the times and be ready when all these things happen around us.
what a load of nonsense. what mountains are we going to flee into? And why should we worry about it being on the Sabbath day? This is answering the question, when will these things be? (the destruction of Herod's Temple)
As Luke makes clear in context this refers to the great tribulation on the Jews, initially when they were surrounded in Jerusalem and engaging in fratricide, and then when they were scattered among the nations to endure continual tribulation as described in Deut 28. It is only because God has continually foreshortened the days that any survive.
So the great tribulation will be like nothing we have ever seen historically on this planet
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It has been like nothing else that we have seen on this planet. No one has ever suffered as the Jews have through history.
There have been really terrible events and wars and slaughter but we have seen nothing yet compared to what is coming before the end.
why should the end time tribulations be any worse than both Jews and Christians have suffered through the centuries? And even if it is true it cannot be obtained from this passage. This refers to the Jews. It could be escaped by fleeing into the mountains.
And because it will be so terrible the days will be made short for us who are in Christ, so it is a warning to be ready, but a comfort that for our sake God will make the end short.
But it is not talking about us. It is talking about the Jews. Although it may well be that history will repeat itself. Indeed there have been many times when the church was about to be wiped out in certain paces, and God has intervened.
This was an especial problem in 1st century AD when false Messiahs were especially likely to arise. And in all ages false prophets have used false signs to deceive people. The Roman priesthood excelled in it. It could of course be still true today.
Here we have the warning not to listen to anyone who makes big claims, whether he be emperor, Mahdi, or whoever. Because Christ will not return in this way.
So here is the warning for pretribbers, don't go out thinking Jesus is coming before the appointed time, because there are many ready to deceive the weak in faith. And don't be fooled by the signs and wonders because satan will pull off his greatest deception upon Christians in these days.
I don't see any mention of mythical pre-tribbers. Just a warning to all not to be deceived about the coming of Christ.
An this is why. When Christ comes it will not be as a leader on earth but as the Son of Man revealed in glory in the heavens. An this is when He will gather up His people to Himself in the Rapture as Matthew makes clear.
Just as vultures gather at a carcase, So will God's people gather to the Son of Man to be with Him for ever.
So there is no secret visitation of Jesus to take home His church before this all happens,
certainly not.
because every eye will see Him, right across the sky. The rapture (or catching away) when we meet Jesus in the clouds is not spoken of at all so far in this chapter.
but it is being referred to here.
Immediately following the great tribulation of the Jews will come political event of great magnitude (Luke makes clear this is in mind). They are happening TODAY.
Here indeed is the coming of Christ in glory, and the rapture of the saints resulting in the end of time.
Here is when Jesus tells us when this is all going to happen, clearly after the great tribulation, that we will be gathered together with Him in the clouds, with all the saints, the dead in Christ rising first.
very true.
This is speaking of 'these things', the 'these things' of which the Apostles had initially asked. And they are to recognise that the destruction of the Temple was to come within that generation, as indeed it did.
This now moves on to His second coming, the time when heaven and earth will pass away. As Jesus did not at that time know when it would be it was not included within what was to happen within a generation. Rather it was to be left to God's timing.
