Catholic Heresy (for the record)
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I try to make it more simple.
You said Pope is infallible in doctrine.
Mean Pope never wrong in doctrine. am I correct?
Now this is the question
to my knowledge, Before 1964 Catholic believe there isn't salvation outside Roman catholic church. Am I correct?
Then there is another doctrine in Lumen Gentium II/16 that there is salvation in Muslim.
These 2 oppose each other isn't it
How you explain both of them infallible?
You said Pope is infallible in doctrine.
Mean Pope never wrong in doctrine. am I correct?
Now this is the question
to my knowledge, Before 1964 Catholic believe there isn't salvation outside Roman catholic church. Am I correct?
Then there is another doctrine in Lumen Gentium II/16 that there is salvation in Muslim.
These 2 oppose each other isn't it
How you explain both of them infallible?
Its interesting that Pope Francis believes that all those who reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are Christians!
Could it be because Pope Francis has never accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior? Could this be why he see's nothing wrong with calling the Muslims our brothers in Christ?
This just shows you that to be a Pope does NOT require that person to have received Salvation.
Could it be because Pope Francis has never accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior? Could this be why he see's nothing wrong with calling the Muslims our brothers in Christ?
This just shows you that to be a Pope does NOT require that person to have received Salvation.
All Pope after November 21 1964 must believe Muslim is save
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
[SIZE=+1]LUMEN GENTIUM[/SIZE]
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
II/16
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
Pope before november 1964 said, there is no salvation outside the mother church > Infallible.
Pope after november said there is salvation outside Mother church > Infallible.
it prove the doctrine of infallibility of the Pope is Lie and it mean Vatican is liar.
Pope John said: Washington is the capital city of US of America. > infallible/can't be wrong.
Pope Pius said: Phoenix is the capital city of the US of america > Infallible/can't be wrong.
One of the Pope must be wrong/fallible
Mean the doctrine of the infallibility of Pope is lie/can't be trust.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
[SIZE=+1]LUMEN GENTIUM[/SIZE]
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
II/16
16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
Pope before november 1964 said, there is no salvation outside the mother church > Infallible.
Pope after november said there is salvation outside Mother church > Infallible.
it prove the doctrine of infallibility of the Pope is Lie and it mean Vatican is liar.
Pope John said: Washington is the capital city of US of America. > infallible/can't be wrong.
Pope Pius said: Phoenix is the capital city of the US of america > Infallible/can't be wrong.
One of the Pope must be wrong/fallible
Mean the doctrine of the infallibility of Pope is lie/can't be trust.
Okay, I think I know what you mean now. To try and make it more simplified for you, lets look at what Papal Infallibility is not.
1. Infallibility does not mean that a pope is incapable of sin: --All popes are human and therefore sinners.
2. Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired: ---- Papal infallibility does not involve any special revelation from God. A pope learns about his faith in the same way that anyone else does – he studies.
3.Infallibility cannot be used to change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones: ---- It can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).
4. Infallibility does not mean that a pope cannot err when he speaks as a private teacher: ---As a man he is fallible and capable of error.
5. Infallibility does not guarantee that a pope will officially teach anything: However, when he does teach he is protected. If he decides to teach the truth, the Holy Spirit allows it. If he decides to teach error, either knowingly or unknowingly, the Holy Spirit will stop him.
Infallibility is not something that endows a pope with divine powers, but rather it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from the human frailties of a pope.
Would you agree all Christians believe that God used men infallibly in writing Scripture? Why then is it so hard to believe that He would work through men to protect it from corruption? Surely such a protection was implied when Jesus said to His disciples, "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).
Keep in mind Jack, three conditions must be met in order for a pronouncement to be considered infallible:
1. The pope must speak ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) in his official capacity.
2. The decision must be binding on the whole Church.
3. It must be on a matter of faith or morals.
The first two conditions can be reasonably deduced from Matthew 16:19: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The acts of binding and loosing in this context would by necessity be something more than casual remarks. The previous verse begins with Jesus saying, "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church" (16:18). Thus the acts of binding or loosing would have to be official and meant for the whole Church.
The third condition stems from the obvious fact that Christian teaching is primarily a matter of faith and morals. Christianity's main objectives have always been getting people to heaven (faith) and teaching them how to live here on earth (morals).
Infallibility is also extended to the college of bishops when they, as a body, teach something in union with the pope. Collegial authority is usually exercised in an ecumenical council just as it was at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-29).
Upon leaving the earth Jesus' final command to His apostles was to make disciples of all nations, "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:20). Are we to believe that Jesus left us no means of knowing exactly what He commanded? That would make His parting statement nonsense. The Catholic Church believes the Bible when it teaches that:
1. Jesus requires that we obey all that He commanded (Matthew 28:20).
2. Jesus gives us the grace to obey all that He commanded (Philippians 4:13).
3. Jesus provides us a means of knowing what He commanded (Matthew 16:15-19).
Jack123, even the early Christian writers bear witness to the Church's infallibility. Cyprian declares: "If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 251 AD). Irenaeus writes: "Where the charismata of the Lord are given, there must we seek the truth, with those to whom belongs the ecclesiastical succession from the Apostles, and the unadulterated and incorruptible word. It is they who …are the guardians of our faith…and securely expound the Scriptures to us" (Against Heresies 4:26:5, 180-199 AD).
Ironically Jack 123, many individuals who oppose the doctrine of papal infallibility claim to receive special revelations from God. Most believe that they can privately interpret Scripture in direct violation of 2 Peter 1:20. They characterize the doctrine of papal infallibility as arrogant, while claiming for themselves authority that goes far beyond it. And what is the fruit of their claims? Thousands of denominations all claiming the Bible as their authority and yet all disagreeing on what it teaches. To make matters worse, many of their teachings change from time to time. Those who object to the doctrine of papal infallibility are the greatest proof of its need.
An honest examination of the evidence can only lead to one conclusion: That Jesus Christ established an infallible Church. Scripture teaches it, logic demands it, and history confirms it.
Since it is getting late Jack 123, I will address these other two issues at a later date.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." Luke 1:48
1. Infallibility does not mean that a pope is incapable of sin: --All popes are human and therefore sinners.
2. Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired: ---- Papal infallibility does not involve any special revelation from God. A pope learns about his faith in the same way that anyone else does – he studies.
3.Infallibility cannot be used to change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones: ---- It can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).
4. Infallibility does not mean that a pope cannot err when he speaks as a private teacher: ---As a man he is fallible and capable of error.
5. Infallibility does not guarantee that a pope will officially teach anything: However, when he does teach he is protected. If he decides to teach the truth, the Holy Spirit allows it. If he decides to teach error, either knowingly or unknowingly, the Holy Spirit will stop him.
Infallibility is not something that endows a pope with divine powers, but rather it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from the human frailties of a pope.
Would you agree all Christians believe that God used men infallibly in writing Scripture? Why then is it so hard to believe that He would work through men to protect it from corruption? Surely such a protection was implied when Jesus said to His disciples, "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).
Keep in mind Jack, three conditions must be met in order for a pronouncement to be considered infallible:
1. The pope must speak ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) in his official capacity.
2. The decision must be binding on the whole Church.
3. It must be on a matter of faith or morals.
The first two conditions can be reasonably deduced from Matthew 16:19: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The acts of binding and loosing in this context would by necessity be something more than casual remarks. The previous verse begins with Jesus saying, "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church" (16:18). Thus the acts of binding or loosing would have to be official and meant for the whole Church.
The third condition stems from the obvious fact that Christian teaching is primarily a matter of faith and morals. Christianity's main objectives have always been getting people to heaven (faith) and teaching them how to live here on earth (morals).
Infallibility is also extended to the college of bishops when they, as a body, teach something in union with the pope. Collegial authority is usually exercised in an ecumenical council just as it was at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-29).
Upon leaving the earth Jesus' final command to His apostles was to make disciples of all nations, "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:20). Are we to believe that Jesus left us no means of knowing exactly what He commanded? That would make His parting statement nonsense. The Catholic Church believes the Bible when it teaches that:
1. Jesus requires that we obey all that He commanded (Matthew 28:20).
2. Jesus gives us the grace to obey all that He commanded (Philippians 4:13).
3. Jesus provides us a means of knowing what He commanded (Matthew 16:15-19).
Jack123, even the early Christian writers bear witness to the Church's infallibility. Cyprian declares: "If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 251 AD). Irenaeus writes: "Where the charismata of the Lord are given, there must we seek the truth, with those to whom belongs the ecclesiastical succession from the Apostles, and the unadulterated and incorruptible word. It is they who …are the guardians of our faith…and securely expound the Scriptures to us" (Against Heresies 4:26:5, 180-199 AD).
Ironically Jack 123, many individuals who oppose the doctrine of papal infallibility claim to receive special revelations from God. Most believe that they can privately interpret Scripture in direct violation of 2 Peter 1:20. They characterize the doctrine of papal infallibility as arrogant, while claiming for themselves authority that goes far beyond it. And what is the fruit of their claims? Thousands of denominations all claiming the Bible as their authority and yet all disagreeing on what it teaches. To make matters worse, many of their teachings change from time to time. Those who object to the doctrine of papal infallibility are the greatest proof of its need.
An honest examination of the evidence can only lead to one conclusion: That Jesus Christ established an infallible Church. Scripture teaches it, logic demands it, and history confirms it.
Since it is getting late Jack 123, I will address these other two issues at a later date.
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." Luke 1:48
I'll even do one better than that, how about we focus on the whole of "Mary's Song." (Luke 1:46-55)
Those who hunger for the Lord will not be disappointed. The Lord himself will fill them with the fruits of his peace, joy, and righteousness. We see God's boundless love manifested in the promise of a Redeemer. As the events leading to the birth of our Saviour unfold we see all the prophecies, promises and prayers of the Old Testament being fulfilled because "God so loved the world that he gave us his only Son". Mary accepted her mission with uncompromising faith and obedience. She acted with unwavering trust and faith because she believed that God would fulfill the word he had spoken. Her great hymn of praise echoes the song of Hannah (see 1 Samuel 2:1-10) and proclaims the favor of the Lord: God exalts the lowly and he fills the hungry.
So, let me ask you. When was the last time at your church, did your pastor asked you, or his/her congregation to focus and meditate on Luke 1:48, or all of Mary's Song for that matter? How about at your bible study, when was the last time Luke 1:48 was the topic?
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." --- Luke 1:48.
Those who hunger for the Lord will not be disappointed. The Lord himself will fill them with the fruits of his peace, joy, and righteousness. We see God's boundless love manifested in the promise of a Redeemer. As the events leading to the birth of our Saviour unfold we see all the prophecies, promises and prayers of the Old Testament being fulfilled because "God so loved the world that he gave us his only Son". Mary accepted her mission with uncompromising faith and obedience. She acted with unwavering trust and faith because she believed that God would fulfill the word he had spoken. Her great hymn of praise echoes the song of Hannah (see 1 Samuel 2:1-10) and proclaims the favor of the Lord: God exalts the lowly and he fills the hungry.
So, let me ask you. When was the last time at your church, did your pastor asked you, or his/her congregation to focus and meditate on Luke 1:48, or all of Mary's Song for that matter? How about at your bible study, when was the last time Luke 1:48 was the topic?
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." --- Luke 1:48.
Do you Catholics understand and realize that every time you pray to Mary, that every time you pray the Hail Mary you do lose your Salvation?
Every time you turn to Mary instead of God you have lost your Salvation!
Every time you pray the Rosary you lose your Salvation.
This is why Catholics will never enter into Heaven.
Every time you turn to Mary instead of God you have lost your Salvation!
Every time you pray the Rosary you lose your Salvation.
This is why Catholics will never enter into Heaven.
Tell me fordman why are you so obsessed with Mary? Who is your God, Mary or Jesus?
We do not obsess over Mary like you Catholics do.
Jesus Is my God, NOT MARY.
All my Heart, Soul, and mind are for God! I give NOTHING to Mary.
Its a waste of time to even talk about Mary because God is greater than Mary.
We do not obsess over Mary like you Catholics do.
Jesus Is my God, NOT MARY.
All my Heart, Soul, and mind are for God! I give NOTHING to Mary.
Its a waste of time to even talk about Mary because God is greater than Mary.
I don't know if I'd call it obsessed, but honor. We honor not just The Blessed Virgin Mary, but all the saints, not for who they are, but for who God made them to be. We honor in them the completed work of grace. We honor in them their faithful obedience, which itself is a gift from God. The Blessed Virgin says, “the Almighty has done great things for me!” We honor Mary and the saints because we are struck with delight and awe at the wonderful things God has done for them. As the moon reflects the sun, so the Virgin and saints reflect the light of Christ. Without him they are nothing. With him they have become divinized–sons and daughters of the Almighty Father.
Silly question. Ever been to a Catholic Mass. If not, you should go, it would answer this question completly, and show you just how silly this question is.
Again, wouldn't call it obsessed, but honor to her and all the Saints. Do you beleive in what it says to do in Luke 1:48?
We Catholics agree, Catholics believe that worship is due to God and God alone. Catholics do, however, honor and venerate Mary. In other words, we honor our Blessed Mother with great reverence and devotion because she is the Mother of God.
Beleive it or not, but we Catholics feel the same. The only thing we give to Mary is honor and veneration. However, we also do beleive that Mary is the model of perfect love and obedience to Christ. God preserved Mary from sin, and she conceived our Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit, bringing Christ into our world. Catholics can’t help but honor the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is full of grace, the Mother of God and our Mother, for her “yes” to God that made the Incarnation possible. And without the Incarnation, we would not have salvation.
No arguement here, God is greater than Mary, always has been, and always will be! but a waste of time to talk about Mary? I think her Son would disagree with ya on that, for Mary is the most beautiful model of total submission to the will of God. Once again, we Catholics do not view Mary as equal to Christ, but rather venerate Mary because of her relationship to Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it” (CCC 964).
As Catholics, we pray that we can respond to God’s call to holiness for our lives in the way that Mary did. Mother Theresa prayed to emulate Mary’s devotion to Christ:
“Mary, Mother of Jesus, give me your heart so beautiful, so pure, so immaculate, so full of love and humility that I may be able to receive Jesus in the Bread of Life, love Him as You loved Him, and serve Him as You served Him….”
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48
p.s. I'll address your post 8057 later, I'm off to work now
Silly question. Ever been to a Catholic Mass. If not, you should go, it would answer this question completly, and show you just how silly this question is.
Again, wouldn't call it obsessed, but honor to her and all the Saints. Do you beleive in what it says to do in Luke 1:48?
We Catholics agree, Catholics believe that worship is due to God and God alone. Catholics do, however, honor and venerate Mary. In other words, we honor our Blessed Mother with great reverence and devotion because she is the Mother of God.
Beleive it or not, but we Catholics feel the same. The only thing we give to Mary is honor and veneration. However, we also do beleive that Mary is the model of perfect love and obedience to Christ. God preserved Mary from sin, and she conceived our Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit, bringing Christ into our world. Catholics can’t help but honor the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is full of grace, the Mother of God and our Mother, for her “yes” to God that made the Incarnation possible. And without the Incarnation, we would not have salvation.
No arguement here, God is greater than Mary, always has been, and always will be! but a waste of time to talk about Mary? I think her Son would disagree with ya on that, for Mary is the most beautiful model of total submission to the will of God. Once again, we Catholics do not view Mary as equal to Christ, but rather venerate Mary because of her relationship to Christ. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it” (CCC 964).
As Catholics, we pray that we can respond to God’s call to holiness for our lives in the way that Mary did. Mother Theresa prayed to emulate Mary’s devotion to Christ:
“Mary, Mother of Jesus, give me your heart so beautiful, so pure, so immaculate, so full of love and humility that I may be able to receive Jesus in the Bread of Life, love Him as You loved Him, and serve Him as You served Him….”
Pax Christi
"from henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ---Luke 1:48
p.s. I'll address your post 8057 later, I'm off to work now
Again i ask, why are you Catholics so obsessed with worshiping Mary? Why do you spend more time with Mary?
I have been to a Catholic Church! I find most of what they do to be evil.
Pictures, statues, candles, all to worship Mary!
Every picture i saw of Mary was 20 times BIGGER than pictures of Jesus!!!!!!
In fact the very first thing you see when entering a Catholic Church is a picture of Mary 40 feet high!!!!!
Talk about being obsessed with Mary!!!!
I have been to a Catholic Church! I find most of what they do to be evil.
Pictures, statues, candles, all to worship Mary!
Every picture i saw of Mary was 20 times BIGGER than pictures of Jesus!!!!!!
In fact the very first thing you see when entering a Catholic Church is a picture of Mary 40 feet high!!!!!
Talk about being obsessed with Mary!!!!