The Sad Lives Of Legalists And Sinless Perfectionists
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Besides, how would your belief effect me personaly? It wouldn't. I was already baptized. I did not do it so as to maintain any right standing with God. I did it as answer of having an already good conscience before God. It's not a salvation issue. I was already saved long before I was baptized.
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K
I have shown you from the bible that shows that blood and water both were used for the sanctification process from the OT to the NT, and the bible is clear that God does not change.
This is why Jesus said to Nicodemus why he did not know what born again by water and spirit meant since he was a teacher of the law. For in the Mosaic laws the sanctification came from blood mixed with water to cleanse a person.
Now in the new covenant we have baptism in His name (H2O immersion) followed by the receiving of the Holy Spirit to have one be born again. Nowhere does the bible say or show that one is immediately born again from minute one of faith.
Being born again is not by faith alone, as once you have been baptized into discipleship and received the Holy Spirit then you are born again.
Water is a symbol of a clean conscious but it never the less is still shown by the Lord Jesus and Peter that it is part of the saving process and is a command to be done by believers.
So again if there was no importance to it then it would not have been commanded by Jesus, carried out as a command by the Apostles, and given more scriptural reference then even repentance.
The washing by the word that you are speaking of is by following the word of God will lead you away from a sinful lifestyle instead of toward one. As Peter said also if you follow His teachings and add the fruits to your walk you will never stumble.
This is why Jesus said to Nicodemus why he did not know what born again by water and spirit meant since he was a teacher of the law. For in the Mosaic laws the sanctification came from blood mixed with water to cleanse a person.
Now in the new covenant we have baptism in His name (H2O immersion) followed by the receiving of the Holy Spirit to have one be born again. Nowhere does the bible say or show that one is immediately born again from minute one of faith.
Being born again is not by faith alone, as once you have been baptized into discipleship and received the Holy Spirit then you are born again.
Water is a symbol of a clean conscious but it never the less is still shown by the Lord Jesus and Peter that it is part of the saving process and is a command to be done by believers.
So again if there was no importance to it then it would not have been commanded by Jesus, carried out as a command by the Apostles, and given more scriptural reference then even repentance.
The washing by the word that you are speaking of is by following the word of God will lead you away from a sinful lifestyle instead of toward one. As Peter said also if you follow His teachings and add the fruits to your walk you will never stumble.
No. Jesus essentially said to Nicodemus that he was a greater teacher of the Law and that he should have known about being born again. So this is not a new teaching but an old one. "Cirucmcision of the heart" (Which is used many times in the OT) is just different words for "born again."
No man can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again. This includes the OT saint, too.
And all saved OT saints had come to saving faith by hearing the Word of God and by being spiritually regenerated by the LORD.
No man can enter the Kingdom of God unless they are born again. This includes the OT saint, too.
And all saved OT saints had come to saving faith by hearing the Word of God and by being spiritually regenerated by the LORD.
K
Well that would be wrong again as the bible clearly shows by blood and water they were sanctified, and they were all baptized in Moses;
Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea (Cloud=Spirit, Sea=Water)
Here is some from the OT:
Exodus 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
Exodus 19:10-11
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Born again of the water is washing the mind of a clean conscious to follow as a disciple of Christ, and of the Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth and keep us on the proper path. Our seal of obedience out of love for the Lord !!!
Here is Jesus and Peter on baptism as they both put it with saved;
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Here again is the scripture from Jesus crucifixion;
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Blood and water, not blood alone................
B
It's funny how the OP looks like it's accusing anyone following the law, is following sin/legalistic, when the bible states that lawlessness is sin. . . . . And also the law itself is not sin, the law just makes one aware of what sin is so that said person may stay away from sin (Paul said this, not me). Soooo there is a lot of contradictory statments in the OP. Just from what I'm seeing and reading. Now if that's not the intent of the message, then ok. But if the intent of the message is to say that follow the law is legalistic, and is sin, then I'm just stating that that's not biblical and actually opposite to what the scriptures state.
Dear Ken:
Again, Baptism does now save us.... but not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). Filth of the flesh is in reference to sin (2 Corinthians 7:1). Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Granted, one who loves the LORD will in time be baptized (Because it is a part of the Lord's Commands). But it is not a salvation issue (Even though I believe there are other Commands that are salvation issues if we disobey them).
Anyways, I think it is best we agree to disagree.
May God bless you.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
...
Again, Baptism does now save us.... but not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). Filth of the flesh is in reference to sin (2 Corinthians 7:1). Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel.
Granted, one who loves the LORD will in time be baptized (Because it is a part of the Lord's Commands). But it is not a salvation issue (Even though I believe there are other Commands that are salvation issues if we disobey them).
Anyways, I think it is best we agree to disagree.
May God bless you.
And please be well.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.
...
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K
Okay you have contradictory statements here, as in your first sentence you say it does save and then in your second you say it is not a salvation issue. Either it is part of the saving process through Christ unto salvation, or it is not !!!
Can a person be disobedient to the Word of God and His commands and get salvation ???
I know of a few scriptures that say no, that disobedience and salvation do not go together.......
How do you apply the blood? The blood is applied to you through faith -
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:8,9
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:8,9
The truth is anything we do according to the flesh will not get us to heaven,but only doing things of the Spirit.
The Bible says that we are not saved by works,which means any works we do according to the flesh,like the Old Testament physical ordinances or false religions will get us to heaven,but only by accepting Christ.
When we accept Christ and are saved,and are led by the Spirit,the Bible says faith without works is dead,which means we have to have works of the Spirit to have faith activated in our life.
The Bible says that love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,so all you have to do is love people perfectly and you have fulfilled God's law,which you can only do by the Spirit,which the 10 commandments are laws of love towards God and people.
The only laws we have to follow in the New Testament are laws of love and morality,goodness.
The Bible says that if a person is led of the Spirit they will not fulfil the desires of the flesh,which means if you are led of the Spirit you will not sin at that time,although you are capable of sinning if you desire to sin,but as long as you allow the Spirit to lead you,you will not sin.
Paul said that we do not do away with the law but we establish it,and the law is holy,good,and spiritual,and the truth is everybody has to live up to the 10 commandments,and all laws of love and morality,which they could not do in the Old Testament,because they could not be led of the Spirit like in the New Testament.
When the Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you are not under the law,it means,if you are led of the Spirit,all your sins are forgiven,and you are not sinning because you are led of the Spirit and not the flesh,therefore the law cannot touch you for prosecution,but if you claim to be with Christ but you have sin you are holding unto,not allowing the Spirit to lead you,the you are under the law and the law can touch you for prosecution.
You are only not under the law if you allow the Spirit to lead you,which many people who claim to be Christ do not allow the Spirit to lead them,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the powerthereof,and lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.
These people would be under the law even though they confess Christ.You are not under the law if you are led of the Spirit.If you claim to be with Christ but do not allow the Spirit to lead you,which your lifestyle will testify if you are led or not,you are under the law.
The only laws we have to follow in the New Testament are laws of love and morality,which fulfils God's law,which we can only do by the Spirit,and any other laws outside of that would not matter.Pharisees would require the people to do things that God did not require.
[SUP]41[/SUP] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]42[/SUP] Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
If a person is going to tell people to act right then they would have to be clean first or else they would be a hypocrite.
The Bible says that we are not saved by works,which means any works we do according to the flesh,like the Old Testament physical ordinances or false religions will get us to heaven,but only by accepting Christ.
When we accept Christ and are saved,and are led by the Spirit,the Bible says faith without works is dead,which means we have to have works of the Spirit to have faith activated in our life.
The Bible says that love works no ill towards their neighbor,therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,so all you have to do is love people perfectly and you have fulfilled God's law,which you can only do by the Spirit,which the 10 commandments are laws of love towards God and people.
The only laws we have to follow in the New Testament are laws of love and morality,goodness.
The Bible says that if a person is led of the Spirit they will not fulfil the desires of the flesh,which means if you are led of the Spirit you will not sin at that time,although you are capable of sinning if you desire to sin,but as long as you allow the Spirit to lead you,you will not sin.
Paul said that we do not do away with the law but we establish it,and the law is holy,good,and spiritual,and the truth is everybody has to live up to the 10 commandments,and all laws of love and morality,which they could not do in the Old Testament,because they could not be led of the Spirit like in the New Testament.
When the Bible says if you are led of the Spirit you are not under the law,it means,if you are led of the Spirit,all your sins are forgiven,and you are not sinning because you are led of the Spirit and not the flesh,therefore the law cannot touch you for prosecution,but if you claim to be with Christ but you have sin you are holding unto,not allowing the Spirit to lead you,the you are under the law and the law can touch you for prosecution.
You are only not under the law if you allow the Spirit to lead you,which many people who claim to be Christ do not allow the Spirit to lead them,which they have a form of godliness,but deny the powerthereof,and lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.
These people would be under the law even though they confess Christ.You are not under the law if you are led of the Spirit.If you claim to be with Christ but do not allow the Spirit to lead you,which your lifestyle will testify if you are led or not,you are under the law.
The only laws we have to follow in the New Testament are laws of love and morality,which fulfils God's law,which we can only do by the Spirit,and any other laws outside of that would not matter.Pharisees would require the people to do things that God did not require.
[SUP]41[/SUP] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]42[/SUP] Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.
If a person is going to tell people to act right then they would have to be clean first or else they would be a hypocrite.
I was basically commenting on your statement: How do you apply the blood? YOU don't apply the blood - The blood Jesus shed is applied to you upon faith in Him.
When I was a sinner - dead in trespasses and sins - Jesus's blood cleansed me BEFORE I was walking in the light!!! I didn't do anything, as in the way of performance, for him to love me and forgive me.
1 John 1:7 is not about salvation but everything to do with a person's walk after salvation.
When I was a sinner - dead in trespasses and sins - Jesus's blood cleansed me BEFORE I was walking in the light!!! I didn't do anything, as in the way of performance, for him to love me and forgive me.
1 John 1:7 is not about salvation but everything to do with a person's walk after salvation.
K
1 John 1:7 says that Jesus blood only continues to cover your sins if you continue to walk properly in the faith, meaning that your future sins are not automatically forgiven. That concept was started by man and is not biblically supported, as Peter and Paul both say only past sins forgiven, and Peter even goes further and says those who do not add the fruits of the Spirit to their faith are shortsighted and blind.
Peter says we have to walk properly in the faith to ensure that eternal life is ours, and the Apostle John and Paul both say the same thing as they show our walk has to match the faith in Christ or eternal life does not abide in them. 1 John 2-4 and Romans 2:7
Not to mention Apostle Paul says multiple times eternal life is only given to those who continue in the faith and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
J
I agree. Walking in the light of Jesus’ words is essential to being cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
I John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
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However, even in the depths of the valley of the shadow of sin and death, Jesus the good shepherd can pluck the sheep out of darkness and despair, -- through powerful healing and guidance. But there needs to be the believer’s willingness to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--------------
However, even in the depths of the valley of the shadow of sin and death, Jesus the good shepherd can pluck the sheep out of darkness and despair, -- through powerful healing and guidance. But there needs to be the believer’s willingness to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit.
No. It does have to do with salvation because 1 John 1:9 says we are forgiven of sin if we confess our sin. It also has to do with salvation because in 1 John 2:3 it says that for the way we can know for sure if we know Him is if we keep His Commandments; For 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him. This lets us know the true believer from the false believer (Who is not saved). For all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). For be not deceived, he that does righteousness is righteous. He that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:7-8). In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:10).
1 John 3:15 (Which is still a part of the same epistle that we see 1 John 1:7) is talking clearly about eternal life. For he that hates his brother is a murderer, and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. We get no indication that there is shift or change in conversation that salvation has changed between 1 John 1:7 and 1 John 3:15. Both passages are clearly in view in talking about salvation. As a matter of fact, we learn in 1 John 1:2 mentions that the topic of conversation here is eternal life.
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1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin is IN CONTRAST to 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other. Only saved believers are in the light.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Let's look a little closer to see whether John is describing children of God or children of the devil in 1 John 1:6; 3:15.
Compare do not practice the truth in 1 John 1:6 with does not practice righteousness in 1 John 3:10.
1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God..
Now compare - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) with ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother (1 John 3:10).
Also compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare in darkness in 1 John 2:9 with turn them from darkness to light in Acts 26:18. So "in darkness and hates his brother/does not love his brother" is descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, (child of the devil - 1 John 3:10; Acts 26:18; 1 John 1:6) and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.
2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light.
Let's look a little closer to see whether John is describing children of God or children of the devil in 1 John 1:6; 3:15.
Compare do not practice the truth in 1 John 1:6 with does not practice righteousness in 1 John 3:10.
1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God..
Now compare - Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15) with ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother (1 John 3:10).
Also compare 1 John 2:9 - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now with 1 John 3:10 - ..is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Also compare in darkness in 1 John 2:9 with turn them from darkness to light in Acts 26:18. So "in darkness and hates his brother/does not love his brother" is descriptive of children of the devil, not children of God.
Now read 1 John 2:11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, (child of the devil - 1 John 3:10; Acts 26:18; 1 John 1:6) and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
Our cross, according to Jesus' words in Luke, is to be carried daily, so that means (to me) that dying every day to our current sins, (that we all fight within ourselves every day) are to be crucified with Christ.
Paul writes in present tense when he says; "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (He doesn't say "I have been crucified with Christ")
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23
"Give us this day our daily bread." Matthew 6:11
"Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning." Ezekiel 46:13
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:13
Paul writes in present tense when he says; "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 (He doesn't say "I have been crucified with Christ")
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." 1 Corinthians 15:31
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23
"Give us this day our daily bread." Matthew 6:11
"Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning." Ezekiel 46:13
"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Hebrews 3:13
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