Is the old testament laws still use today?

[jaybird88]

There are underlying spiritual principles that individuals with the Holy Spirit can discern. The specific applications don't apply, but the spiritual principles do.

In addition, many of them pointed toward Jesus Christ as their fulfillment. Animal sacrifices are clearly some of those.

so does "underlying spiritual principles" mean pick and choose what you like? and how does one get this divine discernment? i only have earthly free will, i have to make my own discernment and pray for the best. sometimes i wish i could give up my free will and let the Lord make all my decisions for me it would be much easier but then i would be learning nothing.

i think i may agree with the animal sacrifice but im really not an expert on it.

 

[jaybird88]

I don't believe that Sparkman, or anyone else will argue that the OT has "NO PURPOSE".

The Law was originally given to Israel as a guideline for successful living. Rabbinic tradition attempted to change the Law into a pathway to righteousness; which it was NEVER intended to be.

was the law not also given to them to make them a priestly nation to serve as an example to the other nations.

i agree with that

 

[sparkman]

so does "underlying spiritual principles" mean pick and choose what you like? and how does one get this divine discernment? i only have earthly free will, i have to make my own discernment and pray for the best. sometimes i wish i could give up my free will and let the Lord make all my decisions for me it would be much easier but then i would be learning nothing.

i think i may agree with the animal sacrifice but im really not an expert on it.

The Holy Spirit empowers and leads the believer.

Here's an example. The Law said if your brother's wife died you were to marry her and father children by her. The specific application doesn't apply under the New Covenant, but a believer should make provision for his brother's wife if necessary.

Another one might be this...the Law said to put a parapet around your roof. That specific requirement of the Law doesn't apply, but the concept of safety first does apply.

If you want to prove that the Sabbath and Holy Days apply, you have to get past Colossians 2:16-17 first, and as I've indicated, the context that Sabbath and festival keepers try to import into those verses simply isn't reasonable given the cross references I've made to Hebrews and Galatians. It isn't even internally consistent with the chapter, as the chapter talks about how believers are complete in Christ.

In addition, as I've shown from Romans 14 and Mark 7:19 clean/unclean meat laws don't apply anymore.

These are two of the common practices that "Torah observers" claim apply to New Covenant believers. Notice that no one argues about moral absolutes; it is always about ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Law.

 

[Magenta]

Then why not study the spiritual aspects of the law and take it to heart via the Holy Spirit given to us? (rhetorically) The Word and the Spirit work in coordination with each other. The word alone, or the spirit alone isn't the way God has created things for us to work right within us. If we don't include the word, how will we ever be able to define the spirit that motives is the right one? According to the word, at least 2 witnesses need to be in agreement so the truth can be established (seen).

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. Romans 8:16

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galations 4:6

 

[MarcR]

[

QUOTE=jaybird88;2198010]was the law not also given to them to make them a priestly nation to serve as an example to the other nations.

I don't think so because:

God is not bound by time. He sees from 1 end of time to the other.

God knew that Israel would fail to keep the Law before He gave it to them.

The primary (and perhaps only) purpose of the Law was to show people that they are NOT able to please God by their own efforts. This understanding is necessary to persuade people of their need for a Savior.

i agree with that

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad for your sake!

 

[sparkman]

MarcR..I think that's why the material used for the Ten Commandments, which were a summary of the Old Covenant, was stone..due to their hard heart.

He knew they didn't have a heart to obey.

[

I don't think so because:

God is not bound by time. He sees from 1 end of time to the other.

God knew that Israel would fail to keep the Law before He gave it to them.

The primary (and perhaps only) purpose of the Law was to show people that they are NOT able to please God by their own efforts. This understanding is necessary to persuade people of their need for a Savior.

I'm glad for your sake![/QUOTE]

 

[atwhatcost]

No. The Law of Moses was never binding upon anyone but the Jew or a proselyte. Now, the old covenant has been removed and is no longer binding on anyone. But, the eternal principles upon which the law was established are also the foundational for the new covenant as well.

I cannot disagree more ardently. So let's skip there shall be no God above me? It's okey dokey to use God's name in vain? Fine and dandy to have pretty western paintings of a European human looking God? Do whatever you want on Sundays/Saturdays? Parents? Meh. Treat them however. What's the big deal with killing someone, hurting someone, or even feel free to call your brother a fool? If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with? As long as you don't rob banks or cars, it's okay to steal from anyone else? Visualize that raise/car/expensive house. Name it and claim it? If the neighbor's spouse is good looking and no one catches you, why not?

The Law is God showing us who he is. WE didn't keep that covenant, but he did. Because we did not, he made a new covenant -- one between Father and Son. That one humans couldn't destroy. That doesn't mean the first one was only for a specific people, nor does it mean it wasn't what God wanted. It is still our best picture of who God is.

 

[atwhatcost]

Thank u exactly the answer I was looking for similar to the answer my lil sis gave me i asked her,she says that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God but I just want to be sure that I'm not breaking God's law.

Well, you are breaking God's laws. That's the reason Jesus came. We all do, so he didn't and took on the punishment of all his Father gave to him.

 

[just-me]

Sabbaths, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats, and clothing stipulations of the Old Covenant caused a division between Israelites and their neighboring nations.

This is clearly what is being spoken of. The Old Covenant is no longer applicable. It served a purpose of division, just like it causes here. Judaizers clearly try to use ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Law to distance themselves from others as more holy or more obedient or even saved while others are not.

I can show examples of this from New Testament accounts and from the actions of individuals here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html

I also have evidence of this from my own life as a former Sabbath and festival keeper. No one who failed to keep the Sabbath, holy days, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing was considered to be saved in our group.

That is why I won't associate with Sabbath or festival keepers anymore. I would have no issue attending a church with such leanings if they weren't judgmental, but invariably they are...and in addition, they don't focus on Jesus Christ and salvation through him. It is all about the need to keep the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic laws.

In truth the division has always represented a separation from sin which is anything more or less than what God accepts. The Spiritual principles of this concept apply in both Testaments. Forgiveness due to repentance, and sacrifice was first ordained in the Levitical law, and fulfilled in Christ. It isn't hard to put that together in Spiritual thinking, knowing Judah now represents the Royal Priesthood through Christ instead of physical Levi. The carnal mind is incapable of understanding that.

 

[tanach]

According to Jewish tradition there are 613 laws that are supposed to be obeyed. Many of them were connected to temple rites and worship. The ironic thing about this is that even the Jews cant keep them now because there is no Temple.

 

[sparkman]

According to Jewish tradition there are 613 laws that are supposed to be obeyed. Many of them were connected to temple rites and worship. The ironic thing about this is that even the Jews cant keep them now because there is no Temple.

This is a great point..there's also no Levitical priesthood.

It's been superceded by Jesus Christ and the temple is heavenly not earthly, where He intercedes for us.

The Old Covenant was intricately connected with the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. Reading Hebrews thoroughly on this subject recently. I believe a deep understanding of this book, along with Galatians, Colossians, Romans, II Corinthians pretty well demolishes these discussions about the Sabbath, Holy Days, clean/unclean meat laws...a false context must be imported to assert them as requirements or necessary fruits of salvation.

No temple, no priesthood, no Old Covenant law. Obviously there are moral absolutes within the Old Covenant content, but they are applicable regardless and are reiterated in the apostolic teachings.

 

[oldhermit]

I cannot disagree more ardently. So let's skip there shall be no God above me? It's okey dokey to use God's name in vain? Fine and dandy to have pretty western paintings of a European human looking God? Do whatever you want on Sundays/Saturdays? Parents? Meh. Treat them however. What's the big deal with killing someone, hurting someone, or even feel free to call your brother a fool? If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with? As long as you don't rob banks or cars, it's okay to steal from anyone else? Visualize that raise/car/expensive house. Name it and claim it? If the neighbor's spouse is good looking and no one catches you, why not?

The Law is God showing us who he is. WE didn't keep that covenant, but he did. Because we did not, he made a new covenant -- one between Father and Son. That one humans couldn't destroy. That doesn't mean the first one was only for a specific people, nor does it mean it wasn't what God wanted. It is still our best picture of who God is.

The ten commandments are the eternal principles upon which both covenants rest.

 

[just-me]

The ten commandments are the eternal principles upon which both covenants rest.

I think the covenant ingredients are in 4 chapters, not just 16 verses. Exodus 20 thru 23

Under the New Covenant, these all must be understood with the spiritual persuasion thereof. I don't own an ox or any sheep. LOL

 

[Josefnospam]

The Law is good, shows us we are all sinners, but we are not under the curse of the Law, if you belong to Christ.

 

[Elin]

I agree and will add to your comment......
Then why not study the spiritual aspects of the law and take it to heart via the Holy Spirit given to us? (rhetorically) The Word and the Spirit work in coordination with each other. The word alone, or the spirit alone isn't the way God has created things for us to work right within us. If we don't include the word, how will we ever be able to define the spirit that motives is the right one? According to the word, at least 2 witnesses need to be in agreement so the truth can be established (seen).

The "spiritual" aspects of the Mosaic regulations are ours in Christ.

 

[Josefnospam]

Well they certainly show us to all be sinners. I'm glad im not under the laws but I am a sinner for certain.

 

[crossnote]

Why , when speaking of the OT covenant, does our minds go right straight to the Mosaic Covenant?
That covenant was conditional and to Israel only, predecated upon strict obedience.
If you're gonna hang out with an Old Testament Covenant it would better to look to the Abrahamic Covenant which coincides more closely to the New Covenant based on an unconditional promise and received by faith...the same way the New Covenant is.
Besides why would you want the curses of the Mosaic Covenant upon your head seeing you have already broken it?

 

[waynebo59]

So,I was reading the old testament and got me thinking do we still have to obey the old testaments laws?

Zechariah 11:10 When Jesus died the New Testament began,Testament and covenant,same.
Colossians 2:14 quite clear.

 

[waynebo59]

So,I was reading the old testament and got me thinking do we still have to obey the old testaments laws?

Hebrews 8:6-13 leaves no doubt either.

 

[waynebo59]

So,I was reading the old testament and got me thinking do we still have to obey the old testaments laws?

Read Acts chapter 15.