Suicide=hell?

[Jason0047]

As for suicide leading to Hell: Well, 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. A person who commits suicide is essentially committing self murder. Judas was called the son of Perdition. He was not saved. Unless of course you believe he was never saved (Which is a popular belief these days). Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord departed from him. A dark spirit had came upon him instead of God and he ended up committing suicide. There is no indication that God was in favor with Saul at this point at all. Also, Scripture says, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple" (1 Corinthians 3:17).

As for Samson: I believe the Scriptures teach that Samson did not commit suicide. Unless of course you believe Samson's strength was his own. Was Samson's strength a gift from God? Did God have to grant his prayer? Could not have God destroyed the temple and protect Samson against Samson's wishes? you betcha. So God granting Samson the strength to destroy the temple was God's choice and power. Not Samson's choice. Samson could not destroy the temple on his own power. It was only by the power of God that Samson could do so. Samson still did not really know how God was going to react if he destroyed the temple. Samson did not have a vision or guarantee that he could kill himself. God does not condone people to commit sin. God took Samson's life by the power of God working in Samson. In order for Samson to commit suicide of his own power, he would have to have absolutely zero help from God in his desire to die. In other words, Samson could have found another way to kill himself and the Philistines. But he trusted and relied upon God instead to see if God was going to answer his prayer or not. And God. NOT Samson was the one who ultimately took Samson's life because God gave him the strength to destroy the Temple and also allow him to be die within it.

 

[VCO]

First off I will respond to at what cost. Perhaps you are right. One day I might feel different. Maybe even tomorrow. I do not focus on Satan unless I'm talking about a subject that to me pertains to Satan. I do not want to be ignorant of his devices. For Angela the scripture that comes to mind is Matthew 11:28-29. When I read that I hear Jesus telling me whatever I'm going through give it to him. And VCO. I also respect yours and anybody's belief that is different than mine. I do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Correct, and the miracle sign gifts were for the APOSTLES to confirm the WORD that became our N.T. to unbelieving Jews. Now I do not want to turn this thread into a tongues debate, so I will only show you three verses so that you will know why we do not believe the sign gifts were ever for the general Church, but only for the Apostles:

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

2 Corinthians 12:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The signs of an apostle were performed with great endurance among you—not only signs but also wonders and miracles.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom,


Do we believe in Spiritual Gifts? Absolutely, and they are listed in Romans.

Romans 12:6-11 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.

AMAZING, not one of the miraculous Apostolic gifts for confirming the Word to unbelieving Jews is listed there.

But again, I respect your right to have a different point of view on this subject.

 

[VCO]

As for suicide leading to Hell: Well, 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. A person who commits suicide is essentially committing self murder. Judas was called the son of Perdition. He was not saved. Unless of course you believe he was never saved (Which is a popular belief these days). Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord departed from him. A dark spirit had came upon him instead of God and he ended up committing suicide. There is no indication that God was in favor with Saul at this point at all. Also, Scripture says, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple" (1 Corinthians 3:17).

As for Samson: I believe the Scriptures teach that Samson did not commit suicide. Unless of course you believe Samson's strength was his own. Was Samson's strength a gift from God? Did God have to grant his prayer? Could not have God destroyed the temple and protect Samson against Samson's wishes? you betcha. So God granting Samson the strength to destroy the temple was God's choice and power. Not Samson's choice. Samson could not destroy the temple on his own power. It was only by the power of God that Samson could do so. Samson still did not really know how God was going to react if he destroyed the temple. Samson did not have a vision or guarantee that he could kill himself. God does not condone people to commit sin. God took Samson's life by the power of God working in Samson. In order for Samson to commit suicide of his own power, he would have to have absolutely zero help from God in his desire to die. In other words, Samson could have found another way to kill himself and the Philistines. But he trusted and relied upon God instead to see if God was going to answer his prayer or not. And God. NOT Samson was the one who ultimately took Samson's life because God gave him the strength to destroy the Temple and also allow him to be die within it.

NOW Jason, you know very well that 1 John 3:15 is talking about GOD seeing the sin of HATING a brother is as bad as murdering him. So where is the ongoing HATE in someone trying to escape pain and suffering by suicide. NO, I do not approve suicide; because it is a sin that is equally as bad as a single evil, momentary thought; which is equally as bad as the worst mass murderer on death row. We humans tend to see sin in degrees of evil; while GOD sees all sin as EQUALLY, horribly evil.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


The other factor almost any verb in 1 John, is the fact that John was extremely fond of the Greek Perfect Tense verbs that we do not even have in the English. Those perfect tense verbs implied an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of doing that verb. It is kinda hard to make case for 1 John 3:15 also referring to suicide, when it can NEVER be an ongoing lifestyle.

 

[Budman]

Suicide is no different than telling a lie.

Shocking?

Read Revelation 21:8. Anyone who tells a lie will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Yet, you never hear anyone say if you tell a lie just before you die, you will lose your salvation and go to hell.

(Well, maybe certain legalists around here would).

*cough* "Jason" *cough*

The whole purpose of verses like Rev. 21:8 is to show us we can never be good enough to earn our salvation in any way. A single lie will damn us.

Sin is sin. Either all of it is covered by the blood of Jesus, or none of it is. It's a gift, or it's a wage. Salvation is based on what Christ has accomplished, or it's based on you and your own efforts. You cannot mix the two.

Those verses (Law) are meant to drive us to the Cross and no farther.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

The suicide that is in the news is the african-american graduate who allegedly took her life in prison after three days. It sounds like something terrible happened in prison, or that someone else was responsible. In either case, she was either overcome by a dark spirit or a dark person. Prison reform is going to happen. Even Obama favors it. They can not take ordinary citizens and throw them in a cage. That may have worked in the middle ages, but not now. That was lady was murdered by the state of Texas and the justice "reform" system there. Texas is also the site of the "Right on Crime" movement that is going to be instrumental in bringing down the prison empires in america where we have only 5 percent of the worlds population and 25 percent of the world's prisoners. It is no longer socially acceptable or affordable to hold people in such inhuman conditions. This lady's death is one of the signs of the return of Christ, in particular her three days in prison, who is coming to "let My people go." (Moses). And in the Psalms, "The Lord does not despise his prisoners." (verse?). "Thank-God Almighty, we are free at last," Rev. Martin LUther King Jr. hoped the nation would say. That day has come.
She did not go to hell. The monk Martin Luther addressed this when a young boy took his life and they would not bury him on church grounds. He said that the boy was overcome by a dark spirit, and he buried him on church grounds. Only God can judge peoples motives, and God knows what happened.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

This doesn't excuse self-murder in any case. It is obviously a serious, grievous offense that no one should ever consider facing God with such. I've suffered from depression consistently for over 25 years, and never was serious about taking my life out of fear of God. If I can make it, you can too. Don't risk losing reward in Heaven or worse. Never gamble with your soul. Help is always a prayer away and/or a phone call.

 

[Jason0047]

NOW Jason, you know very well that 1 John 3:15 is talking about GOD seeing the sin of HATING a brother is as bad as murdering him. So where is the ongoing HATE in someone trying to escape pain and suffering by suicide. NO, I do not approve suicide; because it is a sin that is equally as bad as a single evil, momentary thought; which is equally as bad as the worst mass murderer on death row. We humans tend to see sin in degrees of evil; while GOD sees all sin as EQUALLY, horribly evil.

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


The other factor almost any verb in 1 John, is the fact that John was extremely fond of the Greek Perfect Tense verbs that we do not even have in the English. Those perfect tense verbs implied an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of doing that verb. It is kinda hard to make case for 1 John 3:15 also referring to suicide, when it can NEVER be an ongoing lifestyle.

Well, with the exception of a very small few, believing that suicide is not a sin that will lead you to Hell is popular among the sin and still be saved crowd. Basically what you are saying is that you can live how you like and die and still be saved because you have a belief on Jesus. But many warnings in Scripture refute such thinking. For Jesus will say to the false believer that he never knew them and to depart from him because they worked iniquity (sin).

Also, anyone can read 1 John 3:15 for themselves and see that you are merely twisting the verse to suit your own end or wrong belief. The passages clearly says plainly that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. That truth is still equally true as hating your brother as being the equivlant as murder. Suicide is self murder. Also, the Scripture also says elsewhere that if you destroy the temple (your body), God will destroy you. Seeing everyone dies, this is obviously referring to spiritual destruction in the Lake of Fire.

As for James 2:10: You are refuting yourself. Read the chapter in what it says. What is the context about? It is in context to not having respecter of persons; And then James says in verse 17 that faith without works in this instance is a dead kind of faith. Meaning, you cannot break the Law of Christ in this instance and expect to be saved. For how can a dead faith access the free gift of the grace of God? For Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace THRU faith. No faith. No salvation.

 

[Jason0047]

Suicide is no different than telling a lie.

Shocking?

Read Revelation 21:8. Anyone who tells a lie will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Yet, you never hear anyone say if you tell a lie just before you die, you will lose your salvation and go to hell.

(Well, maybe certain legalists around here would).

*cough* "Jason" *cough*

The whole purpose of verses like Rev. 21:8 is to show us we can never be good enough to earn our salvation in any way. A single lie will damn us.

Sin is sin. Either all of it is covered by the blood of Jesus, or none of it is. It's a gift, or it's a wage. Salvation is based on what Christ has accomplished, or it's based on you and your own efforts. You cannot mix the two.

Those verses (Law) are meant to drive us to the Cross and no farther.

No. Confessing and forsaking sin (Along with living righteously) is not about earning your salvation. It is merely the proof in the pudding if you have Christ living in you or not. For Paul says know not your ownselves and to examine yourselves and to prove that Christ be in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). Nowhere will you find Jesus and the apostles teaching that they can sin and still be saved. Paul says many times that we USED to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. We are changed. Born again. A new creature in Christ.

All who do sin or evil hate the Light (God). For it is written....

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).​

 

[VCO]

Suicide is no different than telling a lie.

Shocking?

Read Revelation 21:8. Anyone who tells a lie will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Yet, you never hear anyone say if you tell a lie just before you die, you will lose your salvation and go to hell.

(Well, maybe certain legalists around here would).

*cough* "Jason" *cough*

The whole purpose of verses like Rev. 21:8 is to show us we can never be good enough to earn our salvation in any way. A single lie will damn us.

Sin is sin. Either all of it is covered by the blood of Jesus, or none of it is. It's a gift, or it's a wage. Salvation is based on what Christ has accomplished, or it's based on you and your own efforts. You cannot mix the two.

Those verses (Law) are meant to drive us to the Cross and no farther.

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."



Why do you suppose JOHN did not mention what specific kind of ongoing liar GOD was talking about in Rev. 21:8? I believe it was because John had already made that very clear in his 1 John letter. I think you will find it is referring to those who, refuse to believe that JESUS is the Messiah; those who refuse to establish a genuine inner personal relationship with Jesus, by surrendering complete Control of the lives to Jesus as LORD, meaning MASTER, and those who CLING to HATE, while claiming to LOVE GOD. In other words HE is talking about ALL counterfeit Christians, the tares sown among the wheat.



1 John 2:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 4:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

 

[VCO]

No. Confessing and forsaking sin (Along with living righteously) is not about earning your salvation. It is merely the proof in the pudding if you have Christ living in you or not. For Paul says know not your ownselves and to examine yourselves and to prove that Christ be in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). Nowhere will you find Jesus and the apostles teaching that they can sin and still be saved. Paul says many times that we USED to be sinners but we are not that way anymore. We are changed. Born again. A new creature in Christ.

All who do sin or evil hate the Light (God). For it is written....

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

​

​

FIRST POINT, how much of your Sin was FUTURE TENSE when CHRIST PAID FOR IT ON THE CROSS.

A genuine CHRISTIAN will automatically confess sin every time he or she discovers it in their lives. All born again Christians do, because confessing sin, is part of our NEW NATURE.

What you are missing Jason is still the fact that we do NOT have the equivalent to Greek Primary Perfect Tense in English, we only have three primary verb Tenses in English, Past Tense, Present Tense, and Future Tense. That Greek Primary Perfect Tense, implied an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of Striving to do that VERB. In did not imply perfection, but rather that which CHARACTERIZES our lives. HENCE:

1 John 2:3-5 (BBE)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And by this we may be certain that we have knowledge of him, if we keep his laws.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The man who says, I have knowledge of him, and does not keep his laws, is false, and there is nothing true in him:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But in every man who keeps his word, the love of God is made complete. By this we may be certain that we are in him:

I really have no idea why they it is called the Perfect Tense, when it does not imply perfection; but rather a continuous lifestyle of STRIVING to KEEP. If we stumble, we are characterized by those who return to 1 John 1:9 and automatically confess it. Just in case you really think you have totally abandoned sin and no longer have a sin nature, you had better check out this verse.
(also see: Rom. 14:23, Rom. 3:10, Rom 14:7-25, 1 Tim. 1:15, Rev. 7:14, Philippians 3:12-16)

Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith;
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

I agree with you on most of your statements, but besides the above, you also NEED to explain that the "doeth evil" is not talking about a one time sin, because of that ongoing Perfect Tense Verb clearly implies an ongoing lifestyle of doing that evil.

A believer that commits a sin is not doing it in hidden darkness like the unbeliever, he is doing it in broad daylight, and therefore the guilt WILL convict him or her in the heart of that sin, and they WILL confess and repent of it, IF he or she is truly a believer. IT IS PART OF OUR NEW NATURE to eagerly confess sin. YES then Jesus Christ Cleanses us from all unrighteousness, because of what HE did on the Cross. HOWEVER, that does not remove the consequences of SIN, it only brings forgiveness. REMEMBER, what you sow so shall you reap; and some of those consequences of sin can be VERY SERIOUS: What Happens When A Christian Sins - Bible Believers Omaha

 

[VCO]

The suicide that is in the news is the african-american graduate who allegedly took her life in prison after three days. It sounds like something terrible happened in prison, or that someone else was responsible. In either case, she was either overcome by a dark spirit or a dark person. Prison reform is going to happen. Even Obama favors it. They can not take ordinary citizens and throw them in a cage. That may have worked in the middle ages, but not now. That was lady was murdered by the state of Texas and the justice "reform" system there. Texas is also the site of the "Right on Crime" movement that is going to be instrumental in bringing down the prison empires in america where we have only 5 percent of the worlds population and 25 percent of the world's prisoners. It is no longer socially acceptable or affordable to hold people in such inhuman conditions. This lady's death is one of the signs of the return of Christ, in particular her three days in prison, who is coming to "let My people go." (Moses). And in the Psalms, "The Lord does not despise his prisoners." (verse?). "Thank-God Almighty, we are free at last," Rev. Martin LUther King Jr. hoped the nation would say. That day has come.
She did not go to hell. The monk Martin Luther addressed this when a young boy took his life and they would not bury him on church grounds. He said that the boy was overcome by a dark spirit, and he buried him on church grounds. Only God can judge peoples motives, and God knows what happened.

I have to wonder WHY was she not on suicide watch? Didn't she have cut scares on her wrists from past attempts? I was a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain, in two different Super Max prisons and I was asked to minister to men on Suicide Watch several times. They kept an eye on them 24/7 either personally or via cameras.

AS FOR your "let them GO" theory, WRONG. GOD expects governments to set up a fair Justice System to punish crime an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That means make the punishment FIT the crime.

Romans 13:1-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And for this reason you pay taxes, since the ⌊authorities⌋ are God’s public servants, continually attending to these tasks.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.


There are a LOT OF INMATES, with life sentences, because of Liberal Judges, when those inmates should have been executed. Believe me, most of those men, you NEVER want to see them on the streets again.

 

[blue_ladybug]

oh my GOSH XD really come on putting me dow for my age mhm I guess this is what I will have to deal with

You're awfully touchy lately.. I don't think Barly meant it as an insult.. only maybe that it sounded better coming from an adult who has more experience and/ or knowlege on this subject, than you do..

 

[Budman]

Revelation 21:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."



Why do you suppose JOHN did not mention what specific kind of ongoing liar GOD was talking about in Rev. 21:8? I believe it was because John had already made that very clear in his 1 John letter. I think you will find it is referring to those who, refuse to believe that JESUS is the Messiah; those who refuse to establish a genuine inner personal relationship with Jesus, by surrendering complete Control of the lives to Jesus as LORD, meaning MASTER, and those who CLING to HATE, while claiming to LOVE GOD. In other words HE is talking about ALL counterfeit Christians, the tares sown among the wheat.



1 John 2:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1 John 2:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 4:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Umm, He said all liars. All means all.

Jesus also said if a person lusts after one who isn't their spouse, he/she is an adulterer. And if a person hates another, they are a murderer in God's sight.

Oh, and all adulterers and murderers will also have their part in the Lake of Fire.

See the point?

God judges even our thoughts and intents of our hearts. To prove, we can never be good enough to earn salvation in any way.

 

[VCO]

Well, with the exception of a very small few, believing that suicide is not a sin that will lead you to Hell is popular among the sin and still be saved crowd. Basically what you are saying is that you can live how you like and die and still be saved because you have a belief on Jesus. But many warnings in Scripture refute such thinking. For Jesus will say to the false believer that he never knew them and to depart from him because they worked iniquity (sin).

Also, anyone can read 1 John 3:15 for themselves and see that you are merely twisting the verse to suit your own end or wrong belief. The passages clearly says plainly that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. That truth is still equally true as hating your brother as being the equivlant as murder. Suicide is self murder. Also, the Scripture also says elsewhere that if you destroy the temple (your body), God will destroy you. Seeing everyone dies, this is obviously referring to spiritual destruction in the Lake of Fire.

As for James 2:10: You are refuting yourself. Read the chapter in what it says. What is the context about? It is in context to not having respecter of persons; And then James says in verse 17 that faith without works in this instance is a dead kind of faith. Meaning, you cannot break the Law of Christ in this instance and expect to be saved. For how can a dead faith access the free gift of the grace of God? For Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace THRU faith. No faith. No salvation.

JASON! You have known me for a very long time, and I remember vividly some of our debates. You know very well that what I highlighted in RED above, is the normal Charismatic ASSUMPTION about what we Believe, and is in NO WAY CLOSE to what we actually teach and believe. NOW that Charismatic false assumption about our beliefs, is a perfectly round hole in doctrinal statement of beliefs board, and WE ARE SQUARE PEGS; therefore no matter how hard you try make our theology fit that ROUND HOLE, to protect your slant on theology; WE DO NOT FIT IN THAT ROUND HOLE. I have been telling you that for a very long time.

WE BELIEVE, if you genuinely are Born again, having the Holy Spirit in you, and having the LOVE of GOD poured into your heart by Holy Spirit (Rom. 5:5); you WILL out of LOVE for HIM genuinely want to OBEY HIM, at all times. THAT includes immediately WANTING to confess sin, the MOMENT we fall short and FAIL.

Romans 3:23-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

NO THAT IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN, it is that undeserved justification, that produces a HARVEST of striving to walk according to HIS WILL after we have been genuinely Born Again, when the Holy Spirit brings out once dead HUMAN SPIRIT to eternal life in CHRIST, making us JUSTIFIED (past tense) BY HIS GRACE.

One who does not have any sign of changed life, after claiming to be born again; has settled for something FAR LESS, than genuinely receiving JESUS as LORD, meaning MASTER. NO we are not Perfect YET, but GOD is not finished with us.

1 John 3:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, {sinless} because we shall see him as he is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And everyone who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

We are those who PRACTICE Righteousness, and if we keep practicing, we will get BETTER AT IT.

 

[VCO]

OOPS, I meant: "when the Holy Spirit brings OUR once dead HUMAN SPIRIT to eternal life in CHRIST, making us JUSTIFIED (past tense) BY HIS GRACE."

That 5 minute time limit IS NOT ENOUGH, especially when you get to my age.

 

[Jason0047]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR]FIRST POINT, how much of your Sin was FUTURE TENSE when CHRIST PAID FOR IT ON THE CROSS.

A genuine CHRISTIAN will automatically confess sin every time he or she discovers it in their lives. All born again Christians do, because confessing sin, is part of our NEW NATURE.

What you are missing Jason is still the fact that we do NOT have the equivalent to Greek Primary Perfect Tense in English, we only have three primary verb Tenses in English, Past Tense, Present Tense, and Future Tense. That Greek Primary Perfect Tense, implied an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of Striving to do that VERB. In did not imply perfection, but rather that which CHARACTERIZES our lives. HENCE:

1 John 2:3-5 (BBE)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And by this we may be certain that we have knowledge of him, if we keep his laws.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The man who says, I have knowledge of him, and does not keep his laws, is false, and there is nothing true in him:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But in every man who keeps his word, the love of God is made complete. By this we may be certain that we are in him:

I really have no idea why they it is called the Perfect Tense, when it does not imply perfection; but rather a continuous lifestyle of STRIVING to KEEP. If we stumble, we are characterized by those who return to 1 John 1:9 and automatically confess it. Just in case you really think you have totally abandoned sin and no longer have a sin nature, you had better check out this verse.
(also see: Rom. 14:23, Rom. 3:10, Rom 14:7-25, 1 Tim. 1:15, Rev. 7:14, Philippians 3:12-16)

Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith;
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

I agree with you on most of your statements, but besides the above, you also NEED to explain that the "doeth evil" is not talking about a one time sin, because of that ongoing Perfect Tense Verb clearly implies an ongoing lifestyle of doing that evil.

A believer that commits a sin is not doing it in hidden darkness like the unbeliever, he is doing it in broad daylight, and therefore the guilt WILL convict him or her in the heart of that sin, and they WILL confess and repent of it, IF he or she is truly a believer. IT IS PART OF OUR NEW NATURE to eagerly confess sin. YES then Jesus Christ Cleanses us from all unrighteousness, because of what HE did on the Cross. HOWEVER, that does not remove the consequences of SIN, it only brings forgiveness. REMEMBER, what you sow so shall you reap; and some of those consequences of sin can be VERY SERIOUS: What Happens When A Christian Sins - Bible Believers Omaha

First, the Scriptures do not teach that future sin is forgiven. For why confess sin if it is already forgiven when 1 John 1:9 says we confess so as to be forgiven of sin and cleansed of all unrighteousness?

Second, a believer's free will is not taken away once they accept Jesus Christ. For understanding that the born again believer has the ability to still accept or reject God is understood when one understands who Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 6:15. Jesus said if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. If Jesus was speaking to unbelievers, this would in no way help them because they would first need to repent of their sins and accept Christ as their Savior. For if an unbeliever were to forgive everyone in their life, they would still die in their sins if they have not accepted the gospel and Christ. So we realize that Jesus is talking to the believer in Matthew 6:15. Which means... that Jesus is saying that the saint can not be forgiven if they do not forgive. For if all saints just automatically forgive, then Christ's warning would be powerless and have no real meaning. It would just be a false threat. But we know that is not the case, Jesus meant what he said and he was only talking to the believer (and not the unbeliever). For the mysteries of the Kingdom (or spiritual teachings) are not given to unbelievers (Who will just reject His Word).

 

[atwhatcost]

The suicide that is in the news is the african-american graduate who allegedly took her life in prison after three days. It sounds like something terrible happened in prison, or that someone else was responsible. In either case, she was either overcome by a dark spirit or a dark person. Prison reform is going to happen. Even Obama favors it. They can not take ordinary citizens and throw them in a cage. That may have worked in the middle ages, but not now. That was lady was murdered by the state of Texas and the justice "reform" system there. Texas is also the site of the "Right on Crime" movement that is going to be instrumental in bringing down the prison empires in america where we have only 5 percent of the worlds population and 25 percent of the world's prisoners. It is no longer socially acceptable or affordable to hold people in such inhuman conditions. This lady's death is one of the signs of the return of Christ, in particular her three days in prison, who is coming to "let My people go." (Moses). And in the Psalms, "The Lord does not despise his prisoners." (verse?). "Thank-God Almighty, we are free at last," Rev. Martin LUther King Jr. hoped the nation would say. That day has come.
She did not go to hell. The monk Martin Luther addressed this when a young boy took his life and they would not bury him on church grounds. He said that the boy was overcome by a dark spirit, and he buried him on church grounds. Only God can judge peoples motives, and God knows what happened.

Yo, dude. This has nothing to do with prison reform. She was in jail not prison. (Big difference.) It was traffic violations, DUI, and kicking a cop, not prison worthy crimes. She would have gotten out as soon as bail was paid, and the bail would have been cheap enough that it was affordable. If convicted, at worst, she would have received probation and maybe done some community time. She had an addiction problem.

Weird things happen when you're addicted to mind-altering substances. So, seriously, this has nothing to do with prison reform, Obama, the signs of Christ returning, or your can-you-lean-any-further-left-without-circlingt-back-to-right melodrama, and simply because you judged which way she went, (and dragged Martin Luther into the scene), has no base in reality. This is a Biblical discussion, not conspiracy theory.

 

[VCO]

. . .

As for James 2:10: You are refuting yourself. Read the chapter in what it says. What is the context about? It is in context to not having respecter of persons; And then James says in verse 17 that faith without works in this instance is a dead kind of faith. Meaning, you cannot break the Law of Christ in this instance and expect to be saved. For how can a dead faith access the free gift of the grace of God? For Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace THRU faith. No faith. No salvation.

No Jason, you are trying to read TOO MUCH INTO THAT VERSE. It means, genuine FAITH WILL PRODUCE a desire to be obedient and strive to do good works. What is the definitive difference between a genuine Born Again Christian and one who only acknowledges who Jesus Christ is? {John 14:15, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 Cor. 2:14, Luke 8:28 an example of DEAD FAITH.}

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

It is out of that LOVE of GOD in our hearts that the Desire to OBEY HIM spawns. So we do not get to pat ourselves on our backs for our desire to obey HIM, it is ALL BECAUSE of the HOLY SPIRIT IN US. ONLY BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS GENUINELY HAVE THAT DESIRE TO OBEY HIM. So like I used to tell the inmates, "If you find it to be a CHORE to obey the LORD, you had better make sure that you are not STILL LORD OF YOUR OWN LIFE." We are those who have willingly out of LOVE for HIM, given Jesus Christ complete control of our lives.

 

[VCO]

First, the Scriptures do not teach that future sin is forgiven. For why confess sin if it is already forgiven when 1 John 1:9 says we confess so as to be forgiven of sin and cleansed of all unrighteousness?

Second, a believer's free will is not taken away once they accept Jesus Christ. For understanding that the born again believer has the ability to still accept or reject God is understood when one understands who Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 6:15. Jesus said if you do not forgive, then the Father will not forgive you. If Jesus was speaking to unbelievers, this would in no way help them because they would first need to repent of their sins and accept Christ as their Savior. For if an unbeliever were to forgive everyone in their life, they would still die in their sins if they have not accepted the gospel and Christ. So we realize that Jesus is talking to the believer in Matthew 6:15. Which means... that Jesus is saying that the saint can not be forgiven if they do not forgive. For if all saints just automatically forgive, then Christ's warning would be powerless and have no real meaning. It would just be a false threat. But we know that is not the case, Jesus meant what he said and he was only talking to the believer (and not the unbeliever). For the mysteries of the Kingdom (or spiritual teachings) are not given to unbelievers (Who will just reject His Word).

Leviticus 16:20-22 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] “When he finishes making peace with the LORD at the holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he will bring the living goat forward.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Aaron will place both hands on its head. He will confess over it all the sins, all the rebellious acts, and all the things the Israelites did wrong. He will transfer them to the goat's head. A man will be appointed to release the goat in the desert.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The goat will take all their sins away to a deserted place. The man must release the goat in the desert.

THERE is picture prophecy of Christ's redemptive work, and the desire to confess that all genuine believers are given by the HOLY SPIRIT.

NOW when were we SAVED BY HIM?

Revelation 13:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Oh My! We were saved BY HIM before the earth was formed. That is very possible IF HIS Omnipresence includes being present in every second of time at the SAME TIME, hence HE truly is THEE "I AM".

Ephesians 4:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

No MATTER HOW you look at it Jason, that means all of your sins were future tense, when HE forgave them when HE nailed them to the Cross. You are not Forgiven because you were obedient and confessed them, YOU are FORGIVEN because of what HE DID ON THE CROSS, and IF you are genuine believer (which I think you are) YOUR obedience is a by-product of HAVING BEEN SAVED BY HIM nearly 2000 years ago. How long are you going to continue to think that you are saved because of your obedience? It is the opposite, you obey because HE SAVED YOU. I have been trying to get you to understand that for as long as I have known you. How long has that been, probably since the first week you joined?

Romans 5:8-10 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, being now justified {past tense} by his blood{not by our obedience}, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


NO, we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it.

As for your theory that we can lose our salvation, that DOES NOT SQUARE with what the Scriptures actually say.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.


Whenever it appears that one LOST his or her SALVATION, it validates that they were NEVER saved in the first place. We have a lot people these days that have entered through the broad gate that leads to the destruction of HELL. THEY ALL THINK THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, when in reality they fell for something LESS than genuine Salvation. In reality they have "GONE THE WAY OF CAIN", which is self-styled worship, redefining what a real personal relationship with Jesus Christ as LORD, meaning MASTER, really is. It is a counterfeit of genuine Christianity.

 

[dcontroversal]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/INDENT][/FONT][/COLOR]FIRST POINT, how much of your Sin was FUTURE TENSE when CHRIST PAID FOR IT ON THE CROSS.

A genuine CHRISTIAN will automatically confess sin every time he or she discovers it in their lives. All born again Christians do, because confessing sin, is part of our NEW NATURE.

What you are missing Jason is still the fact that we do NOT have the equivalent to Greek Primary Perfect Tense in English, we only have three primary verb Tenses in English, Past Tense, Present Tense, and Future Tense. That Greek Primary Perfect Tense, implied an ONGOING LIFESTYLE of Striving to do that VERB. In did not imply perfection, but rather that which CHARACTERIZES our lives. HENCE:

1 John 2:3-5 (BBE)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And by this we may be certain that we have knowledge of him, if we keep his laws.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The man who says, I have knowledge of him, and does not keep his laws, is false, and there is nothing true in him:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But in every man who keeps his word, the love of God is made complete. By this we may be certain that we are in him:

I really have no idea why they it is called the Perfect Tense, when it does not imply perfection; but rather a continuous lifestyle of STRIVING to KEEP. If we stumble, we are characterized by those who return to 1 John 1:9 and automatically confess it. Just in case you really think you have totally abandoned sin and no longer have a sin nature, you had better check out this verse.
(also see: Rom. 14:23, Rom. 3:10, Rom 14:7-25, 1 Tim. 1:15, Rev. 7:14, Philippians 3:12-16)

Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith;
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

I agree with you on most of your statements, but besides the above, you also NEED to explain that the "doeth evil" is not talking about a one time sin, because of that ongoing Perfect Tense Verb clearly implies an ongoing lifestyle of doing that evil.

A believer that commits a sin is not doing it in hidden darkness like the unbeliever, he is doing it in broad daylight, and therefore the guilt WILL convict him or her in the heart of that sin, and they WILL confess and repent of it, IF he or she is truly a believer. IT IS PART OF OUR NEW NATURE to eagerly confess sin. YES then Jesus Christ Cleanses us from all unrighteousness, because of what HE did on the Cross. HOWEVER, that does not remove the consequences of SIN, it only brings forgiveness. REMEMBER, what you sow so shall you reap; and some of those consequences of sin can be VERY SERIOUS: What Happens When A Christian Sins - Bible Believers Omaha

Answer to question 1..........ALL OF IT!