Once saved always saved?

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

Yes like I said a one time act of disobedience not a continuous disobedience to God.

That same standard applies under the new covenant, that if you are disobedient at times but repent of them then your salvation is not at risk. But if you continue to constantly be disobedient to His teachings and commands that is a lot different, and there are many out there who do not believe they have to be obedient which is a false gospel.

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Well that is what you were taught at the bible college you went to, but it is not the true context of believing in the Lord.
A word being a verb does not make it a past tense action, and I disagree with how you have been taught to use when the Greek Concordance and Lexicon show differently.

Believing (pisteuo) is a continuous action, not a one time profession of faith as here is what the Greek usage of the word is used in the bible;

Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

How it is used in scripture;

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;

a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.

b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40

Faith is a gift from God and what God does is eternal...I suggest you study an aorist tense verb and the perfect tense verb! And come on line with the truth instead of your lies...second....I don't propagate what anyone taught me.....I learned to use the tools available to study the word....what you teach is false and has roots in false religion! John 3:16 IS HAVING<---present tense verb....not will have, but is having!

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Wrong answer.....a NEW and BETTER covenant! wake up to the truth before it gets hot for you!

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Well that is what you were taught at the bible college you went to, but it is not the true context of believing in the Lord.
A word being a verb does not make it a past tense action, and I disagree with how you have been taught to use when the Greek Concordance and Lexicon show differently.

Believing (pisteuo) is a continuous action, not a one time profession of faith as here is what the Greek usage of the word is used in the bible;

Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with

How it is used in scripture;

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;

a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.

b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40

It seems obvious that you do not absolutely trust JESUS and what he said......Christ said he gives eternal life unto ALL that believe on HIM...I take him at his word! You on the other hand do not!

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Faith comes from hearing the word and trusting in what it says...........Romans 10:17

John 3:16 - Having in present tense because those who truly believe in the Lord will have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.

That is the eternal life that abides in us right here and now, not our own physical possession. It is a mental possession which means assurance of, just like the Greek usage form the Concordance and Lexicon says:

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;

All the above are mental usages of the word...........

a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26);Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁfor Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περίτίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.

b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36;Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40

You falsely again claim I do not study and is false but it comes directly from the Greek Lexicon and Concordance on how pisteuo is truly used..........

Apostle John says eternal life abides in us, which means that it is of the Holy Spirit not our own physical possession yet.

By you claiming it is ours physically right now you have that one scripture in John 3:16 contradict over 15 scriptures from Apostle Paul that clearly shows it is not.

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

False False False !!!

I believe and have full trust in the Lord Jesus Christ which is why I defend His words on what He said a true belief will look like.
Luke 6:46-49 ---------> Come to Him, hear what He said, and then do it !!!

A hearer only and not a doer of the word the bible says is deceived, why is that so hard to accept by you???

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Faith comes from hearing the word and trusting in what it says...........Romans 10:17

John 3:16 - Having in present tense because those who truly believe in the Lord will have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.

That is the eternal life that abides in us right here and now, not our own physical possession. It is a mental possession which means assurance of, just like the Greek usage form the Concordance and Lexicon says:

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;

All the above are mental usages of the word...........

a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26);Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁfor Rec. ᾧ), to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περίτίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.

b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36;Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40

You falsely again claim I do not study and is false but it comes directly from the Greek Lexicon and Concordance on how pisteuo is truly used..........

Apostle John says eternal life abides in us, which means that it is of the Holy Spirit not our own physical possession yet.

By you claiming it is ours physically right now you have that one scripture in John 3:16 contradict over 15 scriptures from Apostle Paul that clearly shows it is not.

Is having is clear...we possess eternal, spiritual life right now period! And it is not just John 3:16 that teaches what I believe...there are dozens of verses in context which teach it and your conclusion on the other verses must jive with the current realities of possessing it...........that is where you fall into trouble....I can just as easily state that what you believe contradicts numerous verses that state the current reality of possessing eternal life and sonship NOW....

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Why is it so hard for you to accept that it is belief and only belief that saves, justifies, sanctifies and seals the believer unto eternal life which cannot be lost, gained, kept and or facilitated by works.....Why is it so hard to understand that James speaks of a man being able to see another man's faith by works, but Paul makes it clear that before God we are justified by faith and faith alone!

crossnote · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

As well as ...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24)

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

No it is not a wrong answer as I think you need to go back and reread: Matthew 25, Luke 12:43-49, Hebrews 3-4, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 2 Timothy 4:2-8, Romans 11:19-22, Colossians 1:22-23, and many others that speak on disobedience to the gospel teachings and commands of Christ.

And there you go again with your condemning sarcastic retorts as I do not deny Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and believe He is the Son of God come in flesh. So placing a false judgment on others like that is very dangerous, as the bible says by the measure you judge you also will be judged.

Your the one who keeps placing salvation as a current physical possession and you then tell others to wake up who disagree with you, but Apostle Paul would disagree with you that we have it now and would tell you to wake up:

Romans 13:11

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.

Salvation nearer then when we first believed, not we have it now.
Paul is showing in this same passage that we must continue to walk properly in the faith.

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

crossnote said:

It gets so exhausting trying to show you few over and over again from Jesus own words what believe in Him means.

Around and around we go because you few constantly reject Luke 6:46-49 !!!

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

I reject your understanding of believe in Jesus.....

Keep rejecting what Jesus said in Luke 6:46-49 all you want !!!

KennethC · Jul 30, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Because it is of the Holy Spirit who abides in us, without the Holy Spirit you would not have eternal life.

Take what Apostle John said in his epistle along with the gospel book he wrote to understand this. You can not pull and make scriptures stand alone, or you will always have the wrong context.

mailmandan · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Those who are disobedient to His teachings ARE unbelievers.

Be careful with these passages of scripture. I hear Roman Catholics quote Romans 2:6-10 to support salvation by works and this sounds like what you are teaching as well. Notice in Romans 2:6-10, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but is a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Good deeds are produced out of faith, thus "everyone who does good." Deeds produced without faith are tainted with sin, thus "everyone who does evil." Without faith it is impossible to please God. Good works are involved as the FRUIT, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by our deeds/works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith AND works/deeds in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith AND works/deeds in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said.

You just described genuine believers/everyone who does good; not unbelievers/everyone who does evil.

Hebrews 10:26 - To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21 and not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9.

mailmandan · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Obedience/good works is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of saving faith in Christ and not the means of our salvation. I've heard many works salvationists error by saying faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works." Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all demonstrates that there is no root. Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

Disobedience "is" unbelief or disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief? Do you believe that multiple acts of obedience "is" belief or is a manifestation of belief? If you say "is" belief then you are saying that faith "is" works.

Who said this disobedient servant was a believer? The disobedient are unbelievers. The fact that such a person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The Jews are called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved (Isaiah 43:10). Who is Paul describing in Romans 2:8? Believers or unbelievers? - but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. You divide believers into two separate camps. Obedient believers go to heaven. Disobedient believers go to hell. Did Paul make this same division in Romans 2:6-10? No. Paul said everyone who does good (believers) everyone who does evil (unbelievers). Only two camps, not three. Jesus gives us two camps (not three) in John 3:18.

Jason0047 · Jul 30, 2015

Mail Man Dan:

Do you believe a believer can slander and accuse others falsely and be saved? Why do you not correct those who do not falsely accuse others here (Which is obviously a sin)? Paul says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, reprove them.

Also, you said, I quote:

"So you are implying that everytime a believer sins they are not fully cleansed until they confess those specific sins? Are believers lost all over again every single time they sin and are not cleansed all over again until they confess every specific sin? What happens if they forget a sin? I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing an forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.""

In other words, while we are in agreement on 1 John 1:10, we are not in agreement on 1 John 1:8. You believe that a believer will always have some type of sin in their life because if we way we have no sin sin, we deceive ourselves. But that is not what the passage is saying. This passage is in context to 1 John 2:3-4. For 1 John 2:3 essentially says that the way we can have an assurance in knowing the LORD if we find that in our life we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 then says he that says he knows Him (God) and does not keep His Commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who thought sin did not exist on any level whatsoever. Hence, why John says we are to recognize sin by confessing it so as to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9).

Also, at the end of Romans chapter 6, Paul concludes a person is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Okay. So if a believer cannot stop sinning, how are they are slave to righteousness if sin still holds them captive to do it's will? It does not matter if me, you, or the guy next door has not stopped sinning. Men are not the standard. God's Word is the standard. For you have to remember Noah was a preacher of righteousness while everyone else thought evil thoughts continually. The WHOLE world was evil and God judged that Noah and his family were the only ones worthy to survive who were not evil like them.

You are also basically saying that a believer does not need to worry about God leaving them if they refuse to confess and forsake sin. I mean, have you read Proverbs 28:13? Who do you think it is written to? Would it not be redundant information if a believer were to automatically just confess and forsake sin in time?

Also, again, who was Matthew 6:15 written to?

Grandpa · Jul 30, 2015

BarlyGurl said:

False Grandpa... I do not comprehend how it is people (a man friend of mine) claim to be saved for YEARS and then one day announce... "hey in case you haven't heard, I went to the Dr. and spent some money at the courthouse, I am a woman now... my name is (female name).... don't you judge me! I love Jesus, God is so Good! GRACE GRACE GRACE!"

I pursue GOD, I cannot imagine doing anything else.... and then I have the above (friend) who skips along singing "yes jesus loves me" whilst upending and shredding God's order and authoritative instructions to us... and forcing others to make a decision to accept it to maintain any relationship.

It boggles my mind. I cannot comprehend how after so many years anyone could ignore "why do you call me Lord and not do what I say?" I earnestly desire to grow closer to Christ.... and that <situation mentioned above> is going in the opposite direction.

So you don't think you have lost your salvation but you think your friend has lost his.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

Or have you lost your salvation as well?

Grandpa · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Wrong Grandpa as any believer can fall away from the faith if they chose to stop putting their faith and trust in the Lord.

This does not mean we have to live by fear as some want to try and say, because we have God's word that shows us the proper way to walk in the faith so that we can have confidence and know we are saved. Apostle John gives a good teaching on this in 1 John chapters 2-4.

I do not side with osas and I do not walk in unbelief so your stance here is wrong to say that.

Lord Jesus Himself explained believing in Him in Luke 6:46-49, and said there only those who hear and do have their foundation built on Him. The hearers only that do not do, do not have their foundation built on Him and will fall to ruin. The bible over and over again shows a true saving faith in the Lord is an active one by the fruits of the Spirit.

Those who are continuously disobedient and contentious to the teachings of Jesus will not receive salvation !!!

Have you done it?

Have you chosen to stop putting your faith in the Lord?

Have you been saved?

And then un-saved?

dcontroversal · Jul 30, 2015

KennethC said:

Take your own advice pal as it is you how rejects all of the scriptures that clearly prove we have eternal life NOW based upon faith....and your self maintained pseudo gospel has no power to save.....keep rejecting verses like the following...to teach your heresy!

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me,hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Joh 5:24)

Grandpa · Jul 30, 2015

I wonder who gives such a ministry...?

You have lost your salvation and you can teach others how to lose theirs as well.

Well, fabulous. But who exactly will be your audience? Who desires to learn how to do that?

I'm sorry, I can't really do anything for you today. Because I am busy maintaining my salvation. But tomorrow I will love you.

Well I forgot tomorrow is saturday. So maybe the day after tomorrow? Pencil me in.

Once saved always saved?

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