If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[M33]

The problem I have with losing one's salvation, is that it is based in salvation by works. Once indwelt with the Holy Spirit, God does not recall Him. And the Holy Spirit leads us to Christ's propitiation, once for the true believer.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John chapter 3 is how we receive the Holy Spirit, and the necessity to do so. God grants us the security in Him, once forever. He does not give and take and give and take...

Maranatha

 

[KennethC]

The problem I have with losing one's salvation, is that it is based in salvation by works. Once indwelt with the Holy Spirit, God does not recall Him. And the Holy Spirit leads us to Christ's propitiation, once for the true believer.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John chapter 3 is how we receive the Holy Spirit, and the necessity to do so. God grants us the security in Him, once forever. He does not give and take and give and take...

Maranatha

What needs to be understood there in Ephesians 2:8-9 is that Paul is speaking on God's grace which was Him sending Jesus in the flesh to die for our sins that we did nothing to deserve His showing of love to us for doing that.

The faith in Christ is clearly shown in the bible to be an active faith of obedience through love and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

People want to place the Holy Spirit before obedience takes place, but Jesus says that unless one repents of their sins they will still perish. In Acts 5:32 it says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey, so what is there to obey before one can receive the Holy Spirit? Peter tells us in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and then you will receive the Holy Spirit.

Teaching now days has taken Acts 10 to falsely say the Holy Spirit is given at minute one of belief, but that passage where the gentile believers were given the Holy Spirit before baptism was only to prove to the Jews who were contentious about the gentiles receiving salvation as them that we do have that promise as well.

The promise of salvation is to those who keep their faith in Christ, and that faith is shown over and over again in the bible to be an active faith where those will have the fruits of the Spirit in their life, and they will keep and obey His teachings and commandments.

 

[M33]

Please reread Romans 7. "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." This is present tense. We do not stop sinning as long as we are on planet earth.

"But the bible completely teaches against an everyday sinful nature to continue, and says the Holy Spirit will guide us away from that kind of thinking and to abstain from sin."

So are you saying that we become sinless after being born again? That is simply not true. We will still sin as long as we breathe. The difference is that we desire, and attempt, to refrain from sin.

This has been a bad teaching for sometime now to make Romans 7 a present tense in Paul's walk, and it was done by false teachers to make a sinful lifestyle still acceptable among believers.

With all due respect, this is a condescending straw man, I do not follow false teachers. Salvation by works is a false teaching, and that is what you are pointing to, if you believe you can lose your salvation that God gave you at rebirth.

Salvation by Faith, alone...

Maranatha

 

[Christine1974]

I'm going to mix two of the threads on here currently. Job and osas. Job was definitely a believer and"saved" before Satan started to try to tempt him to curse God. But... what if Satan's devices would've worked and Job did curse God and lose faith and turn from God? Would we say well Job must've never truly believed to begin with? Think about A&E in the garden. Sometimes Satan's devices do work. I know people on here say I give too much thought on Satan but that's an important point of the bible, of life. You can't have good without the evil. You can't have light without the dark. Hell will have more people in it that heaven so we know Satan succeeds. Why would Satan look to devour non believers he already has them. It's the believers he's after. Yes I believe all people sin. And just bc you sin doesn't mean you're not saved but sin is an open door for Satan to get a foothold. That's why there are so many warnings in the bible. Those are warnings to believers. And the reason there are warnings is bc if we don't follow them..... I know people will say well then if you don't heed the warnings then you weren't truly saved to begin with. What? Think about that. God put those warnings for the not saved?

 

[Christine1974]

And I totally get the point that teaching one can lose their salvation can offend people. Especially new Christians or young people bc they think well forget it it's too hard to be a Christian. That's where we tell them the great news. He forgives. If you ask for it. And stay in the process of following after Jesus. And we tell them it gets easier. At first it may seem hard and you're giving up so much to stay in the process. But over time it gets easier to resist the devil. You become more confident what God can do. You realize you genuinely don't want to sin. You want to please God. It takes time to get to that point. We're going from glory to glory everyday. I have young adult children. So when they were young I taught them just believe and if you sin ask for forgiveness. I didn't want to turn them off so I kept it simple for them. But they are not immune to Satan's lies so now that they're older I tell them stay in the process. God loves everybody. But not everybody gets to heaven.

 

[prodigal]

just a reminder, we are probably gonna disagree at some point with one another over some doctrinal issue. now if i find i am getting frustrated to the point that i am now making salvation judgement calls upon other members, then it might possibly be time to move on to another topic, where i might find i am in agreement with these very same people (or not). We are all on a personal journey and all at different places along that road. If giving scripture (our ultimate foundation) isn't enough to state a point, then maybe our efforts would be best spent elsewhere. Just a thought.. blessings

 

[BradC]

The Holy Spirit that is in me helps me to do this to cast down thoughts before they give birth to sin, do I some times here or there backslide and stumble? Yes I do as we all do, but nowhere in the bible does it say or show a born again believer who has the Holy Spirit in them will continue to sin everyday. That is a contradiction to one of the reasons the Holy Spirit was sent to us, and falls under the category of those who profess godliness but deny the power thereof.

We are told to turn away and not listen to those who act holy or under God's grace but deny the power to turn away from everyday sinful lifestyles.

As believers we are to daily and continually be built up in God's words of grace (Acts 14:3, 20:32, Col 3:16). These words of grace is what the Holy Spirit will use to keep us from fulfilling the desires and lusts of the flesh. If we lack these words of grace that transform us and renews our mind and spirit, then we will have our tendency toward the flesh and the things of the flesh. These words of grace provide us with faith, hope and promise that we might escape the corruption that is in the world. We have been given by promise this framework of grace in our soul to walk in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24), but that walk will not come by our own efforts in the flesh. We must be built up and edified through God's word in that framework so that we can walk in the light and by faith in every detail of life. We must be available to hear the words of God and hide them in our heart that we might not sin against God (Psalm 119:11)...

'Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.'

 

[BradC]

It is not me that keeps me from sin but the Holy Spirit in me that keeps me from sin. But, every now and then I start feeling good about myself and "me" takes over and I sin. The Holy Spirit then has to come shake me and say "what the heck are you doing?". I then need to repent of my sin.

If we were able to fall from God's hands the the Holy Spirit would not be there to "stop" us. That would then be an indifference by God but He is not indifferent towards His children. God is not indifferent towards those He has saved.

Instead of having to keep repenting of our sin, we instead reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto that sin and alive unto God. That is how we walk by faith when we sin, we reckon on the cross and not our repentance and we receive grace that we might not continue in sin. This is the way God has provided for us through the cross so that Satan can not take advantage of us through our sin.

 

[Budman]

There are a number of days that I have gone without sinning that day

Sorry Ken, but that is a lie. And deep down inside, you know it is.

I can also show you scripture that shows that a thought itself is not a sin but you would probably deny them and say that thoughts are sin.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Why would the bible say God is able to judge the thoughts of people, if He isn't going to judge the thoughts of people?

The confusion comes because of the phrase lustful thoughts in the bible, and this confuses people because they focus only on the word "thought" and forget about the preceding word lust/lustful and where it comes from; The heart !!!

Does the heart "think" Ken? My goodness, you really don't have a clue, do you?

By the way getting a tattoo is an OT written ordinance of the Mosaic laws that do not apply in the new covenant !!!

And working for your salvation isn't part of the Old Covenant - or the New.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

now if i find i am getting frustrated to the point that i am now making salvation judgement calls upon other members, then it might possibly be time to move on to another topic

This is exactly what I pointed out to Jason0047, three days ago, after he made a similar "salvation judgement call" towards me in his first response to my comment on the thread.

Two days later, after several other CC members were also complaining of similar actions by Jason0047, I reported the individual.

Within 48 hours from the time I reported Jason0047, I received a general warning from Prodigal for breaking the exact rule I reported Jason0047 for breaking.

I blocked Jason0047 after I reported him and prior to receiving this warning.

After receiving this warning, I am considering leaving CC permanently. It is outrageous, to me, to be warned for the exact same thing that I had reported concerning another member. To further this outrageousness, a majority of CC members who were active in the same thread(s) also voiced concern and disapproval of Jason0047's insulting and offensive behavior which is counterproductive to Christian fellowship.

So my first frustration, is that during my first week here at CC I encountered Jason0047 who, as Prodigal stated above, makes "salvation judgement calls upon other members."
My second frustration, is that even after myself and several other members repeatedly voiced our concerns as they relate to Jason0047's disruptive behavior, no moderators responded -- and when a mod finally did respond, it was via a warning...to me.

Welcome to ChristianChat.com -- where you can be insulted and condemned to Hell, by an online personality who talks without speaking, and hears without listening, and furthermore is supported by the moderators.

 

[KennethC]

Please reread Romans 7. "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." This is present tense. We do not stop sinning as long as we are on planet earth.

"But the bible completely teaches against an everyday sinful nature to continue, and says the Holy Spirit will guide us away from that kind of thinking and to abstain from sin."

So are you saying that we become sinless after being born again? That is simply not true. We will still sin as long as we breathe. The difference is that we desire, and attempt, to refrain from sin.

This has been a bad teaching for sometime now to make Romans 7 a present tense in Paul's walk, and it was done by false teachers to make a sinful lifestyle still acceptable among believers.

With all due respect, this is a condescending straw man, I do not follow false teachers. Salvation by works is a false teaching, and that is what you are pointing to, if you believe you can lose your salvation that God gave you at rebirth.

Salvation by Faith, alone...

Maranatha

I have read Romans plenty of times and Apostle Paul in chapter 7 says he is carnally minded sold under sin because he was talking about how the law affects his life, and at the end of that chapter he says who can save him from this way.

Then in Romans 8 he speaks on not being carnally minded anymore because that way leads to eternal death, but now he walks by the Spirit. If Paul continued to be carnally minded as he said he was in 7 then by 8 he would initially be saying he still was heading to eternal death and not eternal life.

I nowhere said we all of a sudden become sinless after we our born again, as we still struggle at first as our new Spirit lead nature wars with our fleshly nature. But the Holy Spirit will help us to overcome this and become less and less sinful and abstain from sinning, we will walk in a new way and not the old sinful way we use to.

If you are only stumbling from time to time that shows the Holy Spirit is working in you, but if you continue to be sinful everyday then that shows you are not allowing Him to work in you and are still controlled by your sins to serve them.

Once again look at Romans 7:14 and Romans 8:6, as Paul in the first one says he is carnally minded sold under sin but in the second scripture he says to be carnally minded leads to eternal death. Showing that he could not continue to be how he was in Romans 7 to receive salvation.

 

[elf3]

OK well it seems that as I use Biblical references I am apparently taking everything out of context as someone uses a biblical reference out of context to prove me wrong. They say "it's been what I have been taught" at the same time "it's been what they have been taught". I have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit through study not be someone preaching at me. I have studied both side of this coin and this is what the Holy Spirit has taught me. I didn't just sit down and have someone lecture me on OSAS. It is through study and prayer that I came to understand my view. If your view is from the same then so be it as I will keep my understanding given me by the Holy Spirit. God saved me from eternal damnation so I am good with that.

 

[KennethC]

Sorry Ken, but that is a lie. And deep down inside, you know it is.



"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Why would the bible say God is able to judge the thoughts of people, if He isn't going to judge the thoughts of people?



Does the heart "think" Ken? My goodness, you really don't have a clue, do you?



And working for your salvation isn't part of the Old Covenant - or the New.

That is not a lie and I no rather or not I have sinned, you do not know me therefore you do not have the right to make that assumption.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Don't forget the intentions of the heart here, and plus you are using a bad translation because the word there in that last part is not "judge" it is "discern". What is being said here is the word of God will tell between your thoughts and your heart if you are sincerely for the Lord.

For if you think you are but your feelings and actions that follow do not show this then your profession is a false one.
This is another example of taking and only focusing on the word thought and making it blind the actual context of where the heart lies. You can think many things but it is when your heart/feelings get involved does it determine your true intentions and rather they are sinful or not.

Your feelings grow to control your thoughts and when they do that, then it gives birth to sin.
If you shut it down before it controls you by those feelings then it does not give birth to sin, and then become action that leads your life again that will lead to eternal death if not repented of.


As for your last statement lets see what Apostle Paul says:

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.


Apostle Peter:

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Apostle Jude:

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

OK well it seems that as I use Biblical references I am apparently taking everything out of context as someone uses a biblical reference out of context to prove me wrong. They say "it's been what I have been taught" at the same time "it's been what they have been taught". I have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit through study not be someone preaching at me. I have studied both side of this coin and this is what the Holy Spirit has taught me. I didn't just sit down and have someone lecture me on OSAS. It is through study and prayer that I came to understand my view. If your view is from the same then so be it as I will keep my understanding given me by the Holy Spirit. God saved me from eternal damnation so I am good with that.

I have been lead by the Holy Spirit in my studies not a man made teaching system, or man made doctrine that has only existed since the 1500's that was adapted from another man made doctrine started in the 4th century.

The Holy Spirit is not going to show me from God's word that osas is false by how it is used, and then go tell another it is a true doctrine. That would be a contradiction from the Spirit and the Holy Spirit can not contradict or deny Himself. OSAS only works from the scriptures if that person continues to stay in the faith and never waiver, but it does not apply to all believers.

If you understand it in that way then we are good, but if you believe that doctrine works for all believers than you are going by man's adaptation to the word and not by what the Holy Spirit says. There are way to many scriptures from Jesus in Matthew 13,and 24 to Paul starting in Acts 20 that show some believers will fall away from the faith.

You have Jesus, Paul, James, Hebrews, and Jude that all speak on this falling away, so how can the Holy Spirit tell you believers can not fall away from faith and not end up with eternal life, when Paul says the Holy Spirit Himself clearly says some will (1 Timothy 4).

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

 

[Budman]

I have been lead by the Holy Spirit in my studies not a man made teaching system, or man made doctrine that has only existed since the 1500's that was adapted from another man made doctrine started in the 4th century.

The Holy Spirit is not going to show me from God's word that osas is false by how it is used, and then go tell another it is a true doctrine.

Wow. Just.....wow.

You are basically claiming that the Holy Spirit only speaks the truth to you, and if anyone disagrees with you, in regard to OSAS, (or anything else, for that matter) then they are not led by the Spirit.

It's good to know that you have exclusive rights to the Holy Spirit and the truth. I guess we don't need to ever read the Bible - as you can tell us what the truth is - as you are the one "led by the Spirit."

After all, your answers to everything must be the right ones because the Holy Spirit would never lead you wrong.

Have you ever considered that the Holy Spirit is actually speaking the truth to those who believe in OSAS, and you are the one who is actually in error?

You are sounding more and more like a cult leader.

 

[Budman]

That is not a lie and I no rather or not I have sinned, you do not know me therefore you do not have the right to make that assumption.

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

Don't forget the intentions of the heart here, and plus you are using a bad translation because the word there in that last part is not "judge" it is "discern". What is being said here is the word of God will tell between your thoughts and your heart if you are sincerely for the Lord.

Once again Kenny, the heart isn't a "thinking" organ. It's a metaphor. But I suspect your grasp of english terminology is pretty weak.


Oh, and the bible says if one claims to be without sin they are deceived and the truth isn't in them. You claim to have been without sin for days at a time. Thus, God's Word calls you a liar.

 

[KennethC]

This is exactly what I pointed out to Jason0047, three days ago, after he made a similar "salvation judgement call" towards me in his first response to my comment on the thread.

Two days later, after several other CC members were also complaining of similar actions by Jason0047, I reported the individual.

Within 48 hours from the time I reported Jason0047, I received a general warning from Prodigal for breaking the exact rule I reported Jason0047 for breaking.

I blocked Jason0047 after I reported him and prior to receiving this warning.

After receiving this warning, I am considering leaving CC permanently. It is outrageous, to me, to be warned for the exact same thing that I had reported concerning another member. To further this outrageousness, a majority of CC members who were active in the same thread(s) also voiced concern and disapproval of Jason0047's insulting and offensive behavior which is counterproductive to Christian fellowship.

So my first frustration, is that during my first week here at CC I encountered Jason0047 who, as Prodigal stated above, makes "salvation judgement calls upon other members."
My second frustration, is that even after myself and several other members repeatedly voiced our concerns as they relate to Jason0047's disruptive behavior, no moderators responded -- and when a mod finally did respond, it was via a warning...to me.

Welcome to ChristianChat.com -- where you can be insulted and condemned to Hell, by an online personality who talks without speaking, and hears without listening, and furthermore is supported by the moderators.

Well I have a similar situation as I have had at least 3 people from the OSAS crowd who have been constantly belitttling, demeaning, and condemning of other people who do not agree with them.

One of them just yesterday I warned them from the scriptures in the bible about making judgment calls on one's salvation like he was doing. His response back was that he is allowed to judge others and has no problem making that judgment on me.

I have tried to report him a couple of times but keep getting a message that I have to wait 60 seconds between reporting and to try again in 45 seconds. Why did I get a try again message when I have not tried to report anybody for a few months now, and when I did report a person before it was the same person.

I have talked to others on here who have said they tried to report him also and got the same message.
I have tried contacting the moderators 3 times now and have not gotten a reply back, not has the reporting function been fixed.
Either that or some people are connected with the moderators and have the reporting function blocked on certain people so that they don't get reported and booted, allowing them to continue in this unedifying disruptive behavior.

I hope it is not that though, and I have said I was going to leave and even had my original account canceled before.
Others though talked me into coming back because they enjoyed my knowledge in the word, and I told them I would but to thank the Holy Spirit of God for if it were not for Him I would not have this knowledge.

Here I am but am thinking about leaving again because allowing disruptive, condemning, and belittling of others is not useful or proper in a Christian forum. I could kind of understand if it was unbelievers coming in here doing this, but it is not, it is other brethren who are walking a dangerous line in a hate doctrine of others.

 

[Budman]

Well I have a similar situation as I have had at least 3 people from the OSAS crowd who have been constantly belitttling, demeaning, and condemning of other people who do not agree with them.

Like you just did Kenny, by claiming exclusive rights to the truth? Thus, belittling and condemning all who believe in OSAS.

 

[gb9]

Well I have a similar situation as I have had at least 3 people from the OSAS crowd who have been constantly belitttling, demeaning, and condemning of other people who do not agree with them.

One of them just yesterday I warned them from the scriptures in the bible about making judgment calls on one's salvation like he was doing. His response back was that he is allowed to judge others and has no problem making that judgment on me.

I have tried to report him a couple of times but keep getting a message that I have to wait 60 seconds between reporting and to try again in 45 seconds. Why did I get a try again message when I have not tried to report anybody for a few months now, and when I did report a person before it was the same person.

I have talked to others on here who have said they tried to report him also and got the same message.
I have tried contacting the moderators 3 times now and have not gotten a reply back, not has the reporting function been fixed.
Either that or some people are connected with the moderators and have the reporting function blocked on certain people so that they don't get reported and booted, allowing them to continue in this unedifying disruptive behavior.

I hope it is not that though, and I have said I was going to leave and even had my original account canceled before.
Others though talked me into coming back because they enjoyed my knowledge in the word, and I told them I would but to thank the Holy Spirit of God for if it were not for Him I would not have this knowledge.

Here I am but am thinking about leaving again because allowing disruptive, condemning, and belittling of others is not useful or proper in a Christian forum. I could kind of understand if it was unbelievers coming in here doing this, but it is not, it is other brethren who are walking a dangerous line in a hate doctrine of others.

this is correct. so therefore you and others should stop saying " you think this, you believe that" when as you said above, most of us do not know each other personally. it swings both ways. you know, judge not you shall not be judged.

 

[KennethC]

Once again Kenny, the heart isn't a "thinking" organ. It's a metaphor. But I suspect your grasp of english terminology is pretty weak.


Oh, and the bible says if one claims to be without sin they are deceived and the truth isn't in them. You claim to have been without sin for days at a time. Thus, God's Word calls you a liar.

I do not claim to be without sin and that scripture in 1 John is not talking about nor does it say a person will sin everyday !!!

That is a misuse of that scripture as what it actually says if we claim to of had no sin in our lives, or that we have not (past tense) sinned then we are a liar. We have to admit that we are sinners that need a savior as that is part of the clear conscious, but then you have to take into account 1 John 2:1-2 where John says he writes to us to show us how to abstain from sinning.

But if we do sin again we have an advocate in Jesus that when we confess those sins He will forgive us for them, and notice how it says "if" and not "when" showing that abstaining from sin on a day to day basis is possible thanks to the Holy Spirit who is in us.

Even Jesus says do fruits/works kept with repentance (Matthew 3:8), which means if you turn away and no longer do that sin your repentance was true but if you continue to obey it and do it then your repentance was not true.

So once again the claiming to be without sin is in response to those who say they have never ever sinned, not to those who have learned by the Spirit to abstain from committing sin on an everyday basis that may stumble at times. Even Apostle Peter says if you walk by adding the fruits of the Spirit to your life you will never stumble (2 Peter 1:5-11).