What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[Jason0047]

The Smoke of their Torment goes up forever and ever..... IF SOMEBODY is tormented, they are CONSCIOUS of it.. Gehenna fire will be the Eternal State of the devil and his angels, Non Elect, and the damned, The wicked who never tasted the Grace of God, but tried to climb up some other way.. so you have a Lake of Fire that Burns you and does not consume you... and where the Worm dieth not... Supernatural place.. the fire that burns, yet does not Consume? Remember Moses and the bush that burned yet was not consumed? mmmmmmmm there you have it..

Gehenna fire or hell fire, is real... is it loving? its the end result of disobedience... 2nd death, God didnt have to come here and Save, thru His Son's appeasement on the tree, but He did, because He was loving and GOOD.. He could of let all of us , end up there... but that is not the case.. Love was manifested at the Cross, to keep some from Gehenna Fire... indeed.. Narrow is the Way.. Broad is the Way to destruction.. and there be MANY that will be there... Going to be alot of 'good people' in Gehenna fire.. unfortunately their goodness, wasnt enough to TRUMP the Righteousness of Christ.. this they 'thought' or were deceived into believing.. because their minds were blinded.. God is dealing with the issue of Sin.. and in the New Heavens and New Earth, He will have no part in it... Hades is emptied, its occupants judged and place in Gehenna Fire, Hades itself is tossed in there, Death itself will be there along with sin, the Devil and the non elect Angels..... the New Heavens and New Earth.. will be just as it was suppose to be in the Original Eden, before the tempter seduced Eve.... all things are Made New by the Sacrifice of the Son, His Appeasement on the Tree, and His Resurrection which Paves the way for New Life, New Heavens and New Earth!, where God literally dwells amongst His People as it was in the Original Eden before the fall.. God's Spirit is Here on this earth, Its n the Heavens, its also In Hades.... one thing... Gehenna Fire... God will NOT BE THERE... absent, forever... no coming out and having milk and cookies and conversing with Him.. nope.. those there will 'know' where they are..

I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 KJV as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Source Used:
http://www.apttoteach.org/Theology/E...f/911_Hell.pdf

 

[Magenta]

Eternal life is given to those who accept the gift of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf.

 

[Jason0047]

Eternal life is given to those who accept the gift of Christ's sacrifice on their behalf.

Yes, Christ came to give us life and to have it more abundantly indeed.

 

[Magenta]

Yes, Christ came to give us life and to have it more abundantly indeed.

That is why I do not understand how people can say those who reject Christ will live forever in torment. The wages of sin is death. They suffer the second death, following the resurrection of all. There are a plethora of Scriptures to attest to this.

 

[Magenta]

Say, Jason, excuse me for asking you this here, but I was wondering if you have ever thought about witnessing online to non-believers? Maybe you have already done it, and I just don't know cuz I am kind of new here still and don't know you (or anyone else for that matter) very well... You are just such a stalwart defender of the Word of God it occurred to me to ask you this.

 

[Jason0047]

Say, Jason, excuse me for asking you this here, but I was wondering if you have ever thought about witnessing online to non-believers? Maybe you have already done it, and I just don't know cuz I am kind of new here still and don't know you (or anyone else for that matter) very well... You are just such a stalwart defender of the Word of God it occurred to me to ask you this.

I believe I am already witnessing to unbelievers here (You know, people who claim to be believers but yet do not believe what the Scriptures fullly say). But thank you for your words of encouragment, though. I do plan to do mini comics at some point soon for the Lord and to write a novel (with it possibly being a graphic novel, i.e. a large hard cover comic book). I would in time like to possibly do video sermons, but I want to study God's Word more on other topics and get confirmation from the Lord by prayer before doing so, though.

 

[Jason0047]

That is why I do not understand how people can say those who reject Christ will live forever in torment. The wages of sin is death. They suffer the second death, following the resurrection of all. There are a plethora of Scriptures to attest to this.

I used to believe in Eternal Concious Torment, but I always wrestled with it being good and moral. I was on the fence for a long while in believing in Eternal Hell when I discovered Conditional Immortality. However, the more I studied the Scriptures in regards to Conditional Immortality, the more I learned that it was the only position that makes sense Biblically and morally. I think most people get tripped up over two things when looking at Conditional Immortality.

#1. They do not understand that the word "forever" and it's related words do not always mean forever in the Bible.
#2. They do not understand that there is "Dualistic Conditionalism" under the umbrella of "Conditional Immortality" that teaches that Hell is a real place but it is not a torture chamber but merely a bad prison. They get tripped up because they think Soul Sleep is the only other alternative belief under the umbrella of Conditional Immortality. However, I do not believe Soul Sleep is Biblical. Hell is still a real place. It's just not a place where people are burned in flames. At least not that we are of according to the Scriptures anyways.

 

[Magenta]

I used to believe in Eternal Concious Torment, but I always wrestled with it being good and moral. I was on the fence for a long while in believing in Eternal Hell when I discovered Conditional Immortality. However, the more I studied the Scriptures in regards to Conditional Immortality, the more I learned that it was the only position that makes sense Biblically and morally. I think most people get tripped up over two things when looking at Conditional Immortality.

#1. They do not understand that the word "forever" and it's related words do not always mean forever in the Bible.
#2. They do not understand that there is "Dualistic Conditionalism" under the umbrella of "Conditional Immortality" that teaches that Hell is a real place but it is not a torture chamber but merely a bad prison. They get tripped up because they think Soul Sleep is the only other alternative belief under the umbrella of Conditional Immortality. However, I do not believe Soul Sleep is Biblical. Hell is still a real place. It's just not a place where people are burned in flames. At least not that we are of according to the Scriptures anyways.

I understand hell to be a translation of four words from the Scriptures: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus. I am not advocating soul sleep at all, but that hell is simply the resting place of the dead, the grave, where the dead know nothing. They rest in the grave until the resurrection, at which point the judgment determines whether they are saved and pass into eternal life as the Scriptures state, or they are passed into the second death, into the lake of fire, along with death and hell itself.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us--eternal life.

so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

I realize you know Scriptures quite well; those are just a few highlighting who receives eternal life...

I remember seeing you speak on whether or not there is a split resurrection but I cannot remember your stance on it. Eschatology is just not something I have studied, though I have looked into this issue of hell numerous times before. I have many more Scriptures attesting to the wages of sin being death, but not handy right now; I can post them later.

Can you see anything wrong with this page besides the fact that it is compiled by Christadelphians, who reject the Deity of Christ?

http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

 

[Magenta]

Also, soul sleep may be a bit of a misnomer, because the physical body is in the grave while the Spirit that gave us life in the first place returns to God (it is His breath/Ruach) and so our soul as it were no longer exists once we are in the grave: the body and spirit are separated.

Body + Breath of Life (Animating Spirit) = Soul as per Genesis 2:7.

Ecclesiastes 12:7~ “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...

Job 27:3~ “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit (breath) of God is in my nostrils."

Job 33:4~ "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life."

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/happens-death.html <<<--- I just found that page. Tell me what you think?

I will simply end by saying that nowhere does Scripture tell us that the soul of man is immortal. Life is a gift from God. Eternal life is promised only to those who accept what God offers.

 

[Jason0047]

The biggest case for Hell being a real place is obviously Jesus' narrative of Lazarus and the Richman. The thing is that none of Jesus' parables were never based on something that could not happen in real life. In fact, while I will not claim it as 100% Biblical truth, it is my sneaky feeling that all the parables Jesus told had happened in the real world at some point (Even though they parallel the life of Christ and or his believers). For Jesus was not into telling fairy tales but Jesus was into telling the truth. Also, we see the reverse of the saints resting place, too. One is Abraham's Bosom or Paradise. Jesus said that very day that the thief would be with Him in paradise. Some people say there should be a comma in there but that is not being entirely honest with a plain straight foward reading but it looks like an invention so as to dodge what the Scriptures actually say. Jesus also said he would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights. The Scriptures also say that he would preach to the spirits in prison. Whether these spirits in prison are good or bad is besides the point. The fact that they were not unconscious or not in some nirvana non-existence shows us that spirits are still alive somewhere when they die physically. Remember the richman and what he said? He wanted to warn his relatives of such a place so that they would not end up where he was at. This doesn't sound like a parable. But a real life account or narrative giving us the inside scoop of what is happening behind the scenes when people die. In addition in Revelation, we learn of the souls of those who were under the altar of God who had been slain during the time of the Tribulation. For at the breaking of the 5th seal they cry out to God for vengeance or justice. The 6th seal is a response to that cry and the period of time known as the "Day of the LORD" then begins. We are also given heavenly mansions but yet, the city of New Jerusalem later comes down from out of Heaven to land on the Eternal New Earth. David says if he descended into hell he could not escape God. So surely non-existence or sleeping (as some believe) is not what awaits a person when they die. Some have tried to assert that the verse: "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this.... the Judgment." is in reference to how they will either be brought back to life for the Judgment or they will be awakened from their soul sleep. But such a verse is not in conflict with the Intermediate State known as Heaven and Hell (Which are temporary dwelling places). For the consequences of God's future Judgment does befall someone if they find themselves in either Heaven or Hell. So it is still Judgment. God rewards the saint and punishes the sinner.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, soul sleep may be a bit of a misnomer, because the physical body is in the grave while the Spirit that gave us life in the first place returns to God (it is His breath/Ruach) and so our soul as it were no longer exists once we are in the grave: the body and spirit are separated.

Body + Breath of Life (Animating Spirit) = Soul as per Genesis 2:7.

Ecclesiastes 12:7~ “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...

Job 27:3~ “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit (breath) of God is in my nostrils."

Job 33:4~ "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life."

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/happens-death.html <<<--- I just found that page. Tell me what you think?

I will simply end by saying that nowhere does Scripture tell us that the soul of man is immortal. Life is a gift from God. Eternal life is promised only to those who accept what God offers.

God is said to have a soul.

https://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

So I don't buy that theory. Actually, the best article I have read on the soul, the spirit, and the body (And I have read a lot of articles on the topic before) is this one here:

Spirit and Soul - Watchman Nee

As for the links you gave me, I am limited on time at the moment. So I can't exactly check them out just yet.

(Please take note: that the author is an OSAS proponent of which you know I do not agree with OSAS; But never the less, this person did a good study on this topic).

 

[Magenta]

God is said to have a soul.

https://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

I just looked at this page, thank you for the link

But it ends by saying:

Commonly, the soul refers to the unseen part of man that makes up his real person--as found in his mind, will, and emotions. In other cases, the soul refers to the person as a whole (see Deuteronomy 26:16; Joshua 10:39;11:11; 1 Peter 3:20). Related to this, the soul can be used in the way we often use the word self or myself today. This is probably the manner in which God refers to His soul in the Bible. When God's soul abhors someone, He does so with His very self; with His own essence. He is not just allowing that person or that people to go through some testing or simply giving them needed correction. He actually, in and of His own self, abhors them. I believe that all of the other examples above can be applied in the same way.
As a final comment, I think we should be wary of thinking of God has having a body, soul, and spirit, as man.

So I don't buy that theory. Actually, the best article I have read on the soul, the spirit, and the body (And I have read a lot of articles on the topic before) is this one here:

Spirit and Soul - Watchman Nee

I have one of his books on the spirit, cannot remember what it is called, and I am not at home right now. Hopefully I will be able to spend some more time with you on this subject, as it is one that very much interests me. I also just want to clarify that I have never heard of conditional immortality, and did not realize that was your stance when I first posted here. I would like to hear more about it

As for the links you gave me, I am limited on time at the moment. So I can't exactly check them out just yet.

(Please take note: that the author is an OSAS proponent of which you know I do not agree with OSAS; But never the less, this person did a good study on this topic).

Same here (as to the time constraints). Thank you for your time so far! I think I could really learn something from you. Haha I did not know he was an OSAS proponent. I tend to see both sides of the argument, but agree more with the need to stop sinning. My sin really grieves me now, and I feel quite convicted when I do something that is against the Word of God. And more than that... for I am deeply sorrowful over wanting things that God's Word says are sinful. It breaks my heart.

 

[Magenta]

Here are some of the Scriptures I have compiled that support annihilation of the unsaved.

The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death, not eternally tortured or tormented forever.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured or tormented). and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured or tormented).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Destroy, not torture or torment forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.

From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead, passed out of existence.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4

The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6

Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5

You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6

even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16

but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9

For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20

But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22

those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b

Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34

when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38

But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

the dead know nothing



Thank you for reading

 

[Jason0047]

I remember seeing you speak on whether or not there is a split resurrection but I cannot remember your stance on it.

There is...

#1. The Bodlly Resurrection of Life for the Saints
(Which is in two stages or points in time for two different people groups).

#2. The Bodily Resurrection of the Damned for the Wicked
(Which will take place after the Judgment to destroy them both soul and body in the Lake of Fire)

In the Resurrection of Life (for the saints):

Phase #1. Abraham, certain patriarchs, and those beheaded for Christ during the Great Tribulation will rise bodily to be under Christ's reign and rule in the Millennium or for a thousand years. This will be the same Earth (we are living in now), but it will be after Christ purifies this world with a great fire (Sort of similar to the global flood but more effective because it will leave no trace of the previous civilizations).

Phase #2. At the end of the Millennium, the rest of the saints (Who are living in Heaven within their mansions), will be risen bodily so as to be with Christ for all eternity in the Eternal New Earth. New Jerusalem (the city that has all our mansions in it) will come down from out of Heaven and land upon the Eternal New Earth. There will be no temple there because Jesus (God) will be the Temple thereof (Because He still will continue to have His physical body like He does now).

Eschatology is just not something I have studied, though I have looked into this issue of hell numerous times before.

Understanding Eschatology will help you to understand what is going on behind the scenes in the spirit world and will help you to see if there is a heaven and hell. I created a huge chronology of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse at TOL (Theology Online), but they took alot of their old pages down that had my writings in it. But luckily I saved my work in my emails. I just have to repaste my work (and look over it) before re-posting it here at some point (Which is a lot of work because I wrote alot).

I have many more Scriptures attesting to the wages of sin being death, but not handy right now; I can post them later.

I agree that sin is death (literal physical death for the wicked), too. But I believe this death takes place in the Lake of Fire. For Mathew 10:28 Jesus says fear not him who can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Hell here is translated as Gehenna, which is in reference to the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death." This is in relation to the first death (Which is the death of the body).

Can you see anything wrong with this page besides the fact that it is compiled by Christadelphians, who reject the Deity of Christ?http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

Yeah, I agree. I do not believe in their denial of the deity of Christ. That is really wrong. I believe Jesus is the uncreated, eternal second person of the Godhead. Jesus is our Savior, Creator, and King. Jesus is Lord! God Almighty in the flesh (For there is one God who exists as three persons; The Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost) (1 John 5:7). The Father sent the Son down to this Earth. Jesus Christ came down into the body of the flesh of Adam and was conceived of by the Holy Ghost thru a virgin named Mary. This is the Incarnation. Before the Incarnation Jesus always existed as God and even made Pre-Incarnate appearances in the Old Testament.

As for their view on taking away the wicked's mental awareness after death:

• The dead know not anything . . . There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" (Eccl 9:5-10).

Well, I believe this passage is talking about the physical world and not the spiritual world. The key words they leave out in verse 5 says this: "the memory of them is forgotten." which is in context to verse 6 that says, " "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." <----- Where is this taking place? It says, "under the sun." For their love, hatred, envy is now perished ..... under the sun. This means it is talking about the physical world and ot the spirit world. I believe that you will find the same will be true if you look at the context of the other passages they provide.

 

[Jason0047]

Here are some of the Scriptures I have compiled that support annihilation of the unsaved.

The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death, not eternally tortured or tormented forever.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured or tormented). and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured or tormented).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Destroy, not torture or torment forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.

From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead, passed out of existence.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4

The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6

Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5

You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6

even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16

but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9

For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20

But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22

those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b

Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34

when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38

But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

the dead know nothing



Thank you for reading

These are all great verses! I just believe the destruction they mention is exclusively in reference to the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment (Which takes place after the Millennium).

 

[Jason0047]

Also, soul sleep may be a bit of a misnomer, because the physical body is in the grave while the Spirit that gave us life in the first place returns to God (it is His breath/Ruach) and so our soul as it were no longer exists once we are in the grave: the body and spirit are separated.

Body + Breath of Life (Animating Spirit) = Soul as per Genesis 2:7.

Ecclesiastes 12:7~ “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...

Job 27:3~ “All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit (breath) of God is in my nostrils."

Job 33:4~ "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty has given me life."

What Happens at Death? <<<--- I just found that page. Tell me what you think?

I will simply end by saying that nowhere does Scripture tell us that the soul of man is immortal. Life is a gift from God. Eternal life is promised only to those who accept what God offers.

I agree. Man's soul is not immortal. That is a false teaching. This is obvious by the fact that Adam and Eve were prevented in eating of the tree of life which would have made them immortal. Jesus possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), so they could not partake of Christ and be immortal with him (by eating of the good tree) because they were tainted by sin and needed a Savior to pay the price for such a sin.

Anyways, the Scripture are clear that Jesus is the possesser of life. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). Jesus is the source of a believer's eternal life. Eternal life is not a super power. It is a person named Jesus. No Jesus. No eternal life and or no salvation.

As for the link: I do not agree with the article for the most part. Sorry. If there is a specific verse you want me to address, I will be happy to discuss it. But I believe they are taking alot of verses out of context.

 

[notuptome]

I agree. Man's soul is not immortal. That is a false teaching. This is obvious by the fact that Adam and Eve were prevented in eating of the tree of life which would have made them immortal. Jesus possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), so they could not partake of Christ and be immortal with him (by eating of the good tree) because they were tainted by sin and needed a Savior to pay the price for such a sin.

Anyways, the Scripture are clear that Jesus is the possesser of life. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). Jesus is the source of a believer's eternal life. Eternal life is not a super power. It is a person named Jesus. No Jesus. No eternal life and or no salvation.

As for the link: I do not agree with the article for the most part. Sorry. If there is a specific verse you want me to address, I will be happy to discuss it. But I believe they are taking alot of verses out of context.

Adam and Eve were prevented from eating of the tree of life after they sinned so they would not live in a sinful body for all of eternity. The tree of life was for the body not the soul. They died spiritually when they sinned not physically, at least not right away. Physical death begun and the tree of life would have halted that process.

The soul/spirit of man came from God and is indeed eternal. Eternal death is the result of sin. Spiritual things like God who is Spirit are eternal. The lake of fire burns forever and the soul/spirits there are never consumed, the fire is never extinguished. The fire is the white hot wrath of God upon sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

These are all great verses! I just believe the destruction they mention is exclusively in reference to the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment (Which takes place after the Millennium).

Thank you. Sometimes it seems you are supporting annihilation and other times not. So when you say "the destruction they mention is exclusively in reference to the Lake of Fire after the Great White Throne Judgment (Which takes place after the Millennium)." you mean they are not destroyed in the LoF but... what? In post #314 you say,The Bodily Resurrection of the Damned for the Wicked (Which will take place after the Judgment to destroy them both soul and body in the Lake of Fire). I believe in the destruction of body and soul for those who refuse God in the LoF.

In post #307 you say "They do not understand that the word "forever" and it's related words do not always mean forever in the Bible." I entered this thread where you were expositing on this, which is why I at first assumed you supported annihilation. I understand that forever sometimes simply means until God's purpose is achieved. In fact I saw one Scripture recently that said something about us walking on their ashes (the ashes of those who are destroyed). Maybe I need to start at the beginning to better understand Conditional Immortality?

"Hell is still a real place. It's just not a place where people are burned in flames. At least not that we are of according to the Scriptures anyways."

I agree

 

[Gr8grace]

The fire is the white hot wrath of God upon sin.

All sin is evil but not all evil is sin.

Did Christ take the wrath of God for ALL sin or did He not? I think this is very important for the believer to have settled in his own mind.

The over emphasis of sin(It has its place though/reaping what we sow/fellowship with God) in the believers life is dangerous IMO. Because it blinds us from the major problem of evil.

Sin is paid for and Gods justice is satisfied when it comes to sin. Sin has been judged on the Cross.But evil has not.

The LoF is Gods judgement of evil.......................human good and self righteousness. They are judged by their DEEDS not by their sins.

This is why sinless perfection is the perfect cover for satan. Have a person strive to fix a problem that is already fixed, and the striving is what actually is judged.............their own self righteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

I just looked at this page, thank you for the link

But it ends by saying:

Commonly, the soul refers to the unseen part of man that makes up his real person--as found in his mind, will, and emotions. In other cases, the soul refers to the person as a whole (see]Deuteronomy 26:16; Joshua 10:39;11:11; 1 Peter 3:20). Related to this, the soul can be used in the way we often use the word self or myself today. This is probably the manner in which God refers to His soul in the Bible. When God's soul abhors someone, He does so with His very self; with His own essence. He is not just allowing that person or that people to go through some testing or simply giving them needed correction. He actually, in and of His own self, abhors them. I believe that all of the other examples above can be applied in the same way. As a final comment, I think we should be wary of thinking of God has having a body, soul, and spirit, as man.

God is Spirit. So no. God does not have a physical body like us. I do not think that is what he was trying to say in the article. But I believe God has a soul (Which is the mind, will, and emotions). However, God's soul is eternal and uncreated (obviously). However, God does have spirit like body, not a physical body --- but a spirit body ---- because the Scriptures say many times in describing human like parts .... like the finger of God writing the 10 Commandments and by the fact that God was going to show Moses only his backparts.

As for God abhoring others: Well, I believe this is reference to God being angry and not hateful. I believe the word "hate" (and it's other related words that suggest that) had a more wide range of meaning back in the 1600's with Early Modern English. However, I believe the word "hate" today has a more narrow meaning in the fact that it suggests a bad emotion whereby one hates with a bad or wrong intent or with the idea that no love exists whatsoever in that emotion. I believe God can get very angry, but can God have .... hate.... like a bad guy who kills others out of malice and white hot blind hatred with no love? No. God is love. For I believe God loves even in His anger. Sort of like how a father might get angry at his son but yet sitll loves them and is seeking to bring about the best good for them (If they desire it). I believe God hates the sin but loves the sinner. This is evident in the fact that God died for us while we were yet sinners. This is evident in the fact that Jesus said to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying him.

I have one of his books on the spirit, cannot remember what it is called, and I am not at home right now. Hopefully I will be able to spend some more time with you on this subject, as it is one that very much interests me. I also just want to clarify that I have never heard of conditional immortality, and did not realize that was your stance when I first posted here. I would like to hear more about it

I made a somewhat lengthy post (and provide more article sources) on the body, soul, and spirit here (if you are interested).

Same here (as to the time constraints). Thank you for your time so far! I think I could really learn something from you.

I am just a servant. Any knowledge comes from Him and all glory and thanks goes to Him. But thank you for the kind words.

Haha I did not know he was an OSAS proponent. I tend to see both sides of the argument, but agree more with the need to stop sinning. My sin really grieves me now, and I feel quite convicted when I do something that is against the Word of God. And more than that... for I am deeply sorrowful over wanting things that God's Word says are sinful. It breaks my heart.

I believe we have "Eternal Security" but is only if we abide in Christ Jesus and His words. Jesus is the source of our Eternal Life and Jesus is the source of our Security or in having an assurance of our salvation. I believe there are two wrong extremes to salvation and there is one right and Biblical view in the Center (That is a balance of the two wrong extremes).


Works Salvationism <---------------------------(Conditionalism & the fruit of the Spirit)--------------------------> Antinomianism

#1. "Works Salvationism"
Is the view that you have to work in order to earn your salvation. Salvation in this case has been reduced to a mere set of rules alone and does not emphasize the saving grace of Jesus Christ whereby a person can be forgiven by repenting or confessing their sins. Many in this camp like to go back to the Law of Moses and say to us that it is still binding for the believer. However, this is not the case because the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). For Jesus even said shortly before the cross that the old (i.e. the Old covenant law) was ready to vanish away in Hebrews 8:13. For this is why the Temple veil was torn and we no longer offer animal sacrifices anymore to a priest. For Jesus is our sacrifice and our heavenly high priest that we can go to directly for reconciliation. Law keeping is merely the proof that God lives within you. Doing the works in and of themselves does not save. I would liken Works Salvationsim with sort of like putting the cart before the horse.

#2. "Antinomianism" (or Ignoring God's moral law)
Antinomianism (Also sometimes referred to as Once Saved Always Saved, or Eternal Security or Hyper Grace) is a doctrine that teaches that you can sin and still be saved on some level. There are varying different degrees or levels of this type of believe. Some (who I have talked with) believe they can mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and still be saved (This is Classic OSAS). Others say you will not habitually sin (otherwise you are not saved), but.... yet they will say that dying in one or two unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, or hating will not send you to Hell (This is Mid Range OSAS) Then there are those who say if you are living in sin habitually, then you were never born again to begin with (This is OSAS Lite). But all versions of OSAS make an allowance for sin in the fact that they say you will never be able to stop sinning (Which is in direct violation of what Scripture clearly says: 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14, John 8:11, Psalm 119:11). For saying one will sin in the future is making an excuse that you willingly rebel against God at some point in the future. This is wrong. God wants us to be in obedience to Him and to be perfect and holy. The Bible talks alot about us walking the walk and in living righteously.

#3. "Biblical Conditionalism & the Fruits of the Spirit"
A person is first saved when they admit that they are a sinner and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. They express a Godly sorrow over their sin and they ask Jesus to forgiven them of their sin (With the intention that they do not want to sin ever again). They are then born again spiritually when this happens and they are given a new heart, and a new spirit with new desires. They are saved by His mercy and the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). If they sin again, they have Jesus Christ whereby they can confess their sin in order to be forgiven of it. For Christ helps the believer to walk in holiness and righteousness because it is the LORD that works in them to do of His good will and pleasure. God will convict the belever to obey His Commands in the New Testament and move within them to help make that a reality. This is not Works Salvationism because it is the Lord doing the "good work" in the believer. For holiness and works in a believer's life is just the testimony that they have Jesus living within them. For Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:5 that we are not to know our own selves but we are to examine whether or not Christ be in us (unless we be reprobate). How can we know that we know Him? 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing if we find that we are keeping His Commandments (after the new birth). For the Scriptures say, he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).