If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[KennethC]

hey guys long time no visit this thread. miss anything important or the same ol', same ol ?
haha

anyway, i was reading 2 Peter today..
can i share? (from chapter 1)

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
​

i noticed a couple of things:
Peter says we have already obtained a few things before he encourages us to add "virtue" --
a precious faith equal to the apostles.
all things pertaining to life and godliness.
great and precious promises.
part in the divine nature.

and he says because we have these things, we should be busy to add virtue to our faith.

of those who don't add virtue, knowledge, self-control.. and ultimately love - he does not say they have lost the promises, lost the faith, lost "salvation" -- only that they lose capacity to see, becoming so nearsighted that they are almost blind. blindness is not death. blindness is not separation from our Savior. as it is we await the return of the true Light.

what do you think about that?

"have a nice day"

I would say to continue in that passage to verses 10-12 that are part of this context, and in verses 10-11 shows by adding/doing those things an entrance into the everlasting kingdom will be supplied to us. Showing the blindness is in reference to being blinded from obeying the truth in the word on how to walk in the faith which goes hand and hand with the belief in the faith unto salvation through Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

hey guys long time no visit this thread. miss anything important or the same ol', same ol ?
haha

anyway, i was reading 2 Peter today..
can i share? (from chapter 1)

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
​

i noticed a couple of things:
Peter says we have already obtained a few things before he encourages us to add "virtue" --
a precious faith equal to the apostles.
all things pertaining to life and godliness.
great and precious promises.
part in the divine nature.

and he says because we have these things, we should be busy to add virtue to our faith.

of those who don't add virtue, knowledge, self-control.. and ultimately love - he does not say they have lost the promises, lost the faith, lost "salvation" -- only that they lose capacity to see, becoming so nearsighted that they are almost blind. blindness is not death. blindness is not separation from our Savior. as it is we await the return of the true Light.

what do you think about that?

"have a nice day"

Amen and solid truth and proof of eternal life in Christ!

 

[Jason0047]

It is based on the depth of the relationship.

You can be at odds with your relatives but you are still related. God is not my adversary but my Father in heaven. Love trans sends my imperfections. God is able to see past my present imperfection and view the future perfection I have in Christ because of grace. My sin in Gods eyes has been removed as far that the east is from the west from me. Only God could do it and only He has done it.

As usual your questions are answered many times over but never with the answer you want. Not much prospect of that changing in the near future.

An old evangelist once remarked that for two fellows to have fellowship the must be in the same ship. Amos 3:3 how can two walk together except the be agreed.

So sins like murder, hate, rape, sleeping with a bunch of women, and other sexual immoralities is just automatically forgiven in Christ if one lapses into doing such evils? Is that what you are saying? What happens if one dies in these types of sins? Are they still saved? How would such a belief make them different from the world and how it behaves? Does not Ephesians 4:17-27 essentially say that we used to be sinners and we are now to live unto holiness?

Also, in the Old Testament, you could be put to death in some cases for not respecting your parents. Sin is ultimately done towards God (Psalm 51:4) (Genesis 20:6). So how are you not disrespecting Heavenly Father if you sin against Him? Why do you think God has completely changed in regards to dealing with sin? Has God just let evil slide now? Why would He let His children sin? Would that not reflect badly upon Himself if He allowed that to happen?

Read from Galatians 3:10 on down. When you read it, try replacing the word "curse" for the words "sin/death (because the Law can or has been transgressed)" and you will see it make it a little more sense. For obedience to God's Law in itself do not save is what Galatians 3 is saying. We are saved by faith in the Lord for He is our salvation. The Law was a schoolmaster (a teacher) to bring us unto Christ. However, one does not throw away everything of what they have learned from a schoolmaster, though. The Law was to help us to learn to walk in Christ after we received Him by faith and trust in His saving grace. We are to let Christ work in us.

Here is a great quote (that will hopefully shed some light on this for you):

Even though the law can guide a person in the right way to live, and even though it describes the character of God, it also condemns and brings one guilty before God through an awareness of sin.

However, it does not possess the power to forgive, to justify, or to give life.
It takes a living Personality—the Giver and the Enforcer of the law—to forgive, to justify, and to give life. The law can do nothing to reverse the condemnation—the curse—once it is incurred through sin, but Christ took the curse upon Himself so that we do not have to bear our own punishment. The Father, in His mercy, permits His death to apply for us. He forgives and justifies us, if we accept Christ's death on our behalf with true repentance and faith.

~ John W. Ritenbaugh​

He also has some great words on Once Saved Always Saved, too.

Bible verses about Once Saved Always Saved
(From Forerunner Commentary)

The concept generally described as "once saved, always saved," is the notion that, once one accepts Jesus Christ as Savior, salvation is assured. This idea is true only if it is understood as having two major conditions attached.The first is that those who accept Christ's blood for the remission of sins remain faithful in their commitment to Him. This faithfulness is loyalty to conditions, terms, persons, or agreements. The faith that saves is a living faith, meaning it is active, dynamic. Living faith works and produces within the person having it. This gives rise to the second condition for this idea to be true: Those who accept Christ as Savior must be growing, changing, and overcoming.The doctrinal concept without these conditions makes salvation into nothing more than the acceptance or mental agreement with the proposition that Jesus is Savior. It totally fails to address the reason or purpose for salvation. God has a purpose in what He is doing, a great overriding purpose, a cause, for His calling, leading us to repentance, and granting us conversion by means of His gift of the Holy Spirit.

~ John W. Ritenbaugh

The Elements of Motivation (Part Three): Hope​

Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God's love shine upon you.

Sources Used:
Curse of Sin (Forerunner Commentary) - Bible Tools
Once Saved Always Saved (Forerunner Commentary) - Bible Tools

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I would say to continue in that passage to verses 10-12 that are part of this context, and in verses 10-11 shows

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

...by adding/doing those things an entrance into the everlasting kingdom will be supplied to us. Showing the blindness is in reference to being blinded from obeying the truth in the word on how to walk in the faith which goes hand and hand with the belief in the faith unto salvation through Christ.

Actually, it goes a bit further:

You said:

an entrance into the everlasting kingdom will be supplied to us

When the text (NIV) reads: "...you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom..."

In my opinion, "rich welcome" and "an entrance...will be supplied to us" have two different meanings;

one implies an exceptional welcome or better-than-normal welcome, while the other implies that you must do "these things" in order to receive "an entrance".

Seemed worth noting...
-WW

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

So sins like murder, hate, rape, sleeping with a bunch of women, and other sexual immoralities is just automatically forgiven in Christ if one lapses into doing such evils?

Clueless. Truly clueless.

You're saying Christ's blood isn't sufficient to wipe out those sins of a believer, even though He knew when He accepted their confession of faith they would do these things. Christ only covers the "little sins" He knew we were going to commit. He "didn'r die for" the big ones, huh?

Sheer stupidity! But what does one expect from an unbeliever masquerading as a "shepherd"?

 

[Jason0047]

Clueless. Truly clueless.

You're saying Christ's blood isn't sufficient to wipe out those sins of a believer, even though He knew when He accepted their confession of faith they would do these things. Christ only covers the "little sins" He knew we were going to commit. He "didn'r die for" the big ones, huh?

Sheer stupidity! But what does one expect from an unbeliever masquerading as a "shepherd"?

That doesn't make any sense. Would it not be the person who believes in "a sin and still be saved doctrine" who is the unbeliever because they say you can lapse into all sorts of evils and still be saved? Many times such people do not reveal all of what they say upfront about this (Which is deceptive). Would not such a believer be like a wolf inwardly when they pretend to be like a good sheep in the beginning towards someone?

See, we know a sheep is good by what it does.
We know a wolf is bad by what it does.

Jesus said the false prophets would have an appearance of being good, but inwardly they were ravenous wolves.

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit (i.e. their deeds).

 

[Jason0047]

Everything I said was out in the open here. There is nothing for me to hide. I am willing to explain the Scriptures, and God's goodness and morality at any time. If someone has God living within them, would not the fruits of the LORD be evident in their life? Why do others seek to attack those who promote God's goodness and holiness as a part of showing a true faith (or that it is proof that God lives in them)? Why is that?

I ask these questions, not to wound anyone here, but I ask them in love for them to dig deep within themselves and to think.

In any event, may God bless you all.
And please be well.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Why do others seek to attack those who promote God's goodness and holiness as a part of showing a true faith (or that it is proof that God lives in them)? Why is that?

We do not seek to attack you, Jason;
you bring it upon yourself,
by your choice of words.

In my opinion, you don't know when to stop,
you don't know how to show someone that you have understood them before you move on to points 2, 3, ...,
often times your choice of words makes it appear as if you are passing judgement on individuals or groups of people who are actively participating in the thread.

I could keep going, but I think (hope) you get the point.

And besides, I trust others here are also able to assist you in improving your communication to others.

^This last sentence may sound harsh -- please receive it not as a slam, but as an encouragement.

Regards,
-WW

 

[Jason0047]

I answered all ten of your questions. That you do not like the answers, that those answers point up the fact of your lack of position in Christ, isn't my problem. Please refrain from lying, in addition to all your other arrogant sins.

This is called taking out of context of what I said. Please pay close attention what what I said. I said the HEART of the questions I asked, and then I proceeded to pose certain questions within that post that reflect the HEART of the questions I was asking. What are the HEART or core questions I was asking? You can simply go back to my post here to check them out for yourself. So no. I was not lying. It was simply a misunderstanding on your part. So any time you want to apologize would be nice.

Asked and answered, thoroughly. Again, refute what was said, with valid, in-context Scriptures, or be silent, Unbeliever.

You really did not address the morality of the issue of those questions that I asked, though.
Also, I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I will not be silent. I will stand up for the LORD and His goodness.
May the LORD stop your mouth temporarily to see that what you have been saying here is not correct.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

It was simply a misunderstanding on your part. So any time you want to apologize would be nice.

Is it Christian behavior, to demand an apology?

You really did not address the morality of the issue of those questions that I asked, though.
Also, I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I will not be silent. I will stand up for the LORD and His goodness.
May the LORD stop your mouth temporarily to see that what you have been saying here is not correct.

...just wondering.

 

[Jason0047]

We do not seek to attack you, Jason;
you bring it upon yourself,
by your choice of words.

In my opinion, you don't know when to stop,
you don't know how to show someone that you have understood them before you move on to points 2, 3, ...,
often times your choice of words makes it appear as if you are passing judgement on individuals or groups of people who are actively participating in the thread.

I could keep going, but I think (hope) you get the point.

And besides, I trust others here are also able to assist you in improving your communication to others.

^This last sentence may sound harsh -- please receive it not as a slam, but as an encouragement.

Regards,
-WW

I speak out against a wrong belief and or those in general who hold to such a belief. Nowhere did I attack anyone personally to warrant a personal attack. I presented Scripture to back up what I was saying. I have even used real world examples like Jesus did to illustrate spiritual truth, too. If people do not believe in a "sin and still be saved doctrine" then they would not get angry at me for anything that I say and they would simply explain what they really believe. But people here do believe in a "sin and still be saved" doctrine (Hence, why they are angry and they bring forth attacks).

Let's take the acid test.

Can you die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?
Can you be out of fellowship (no doubt because of sin) and be saved?
Is all future sin paid for whereby I do not need to confess or forsake sin?
If so, then how does that line up with Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:3-4?
Can I refuse to let Christ do the "good work" in me (in what He wants me to do for Him) and be saved?
In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says I must forgive, or I will not be forgiven by the Father.
Do all believers automatically forgive, if so, then who was Jesus talking to?
Do you believe Jesus' words do not apply anymore, if so, then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing?

Please take note that Jesus was attacked by the Pharisees many times and Jesus only promoted salvation in Him and holiness and righteousness. If Jesus taught anywhere that man can sin and still be saved, we would have clear evidence of such a thing by Jesus and the other apostles. But the opposite is true. Jesus never sinned once and he never condoned any man's sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Is it Christian behavior, to demand an apology?

...just wondering.

God demands an apology from us. It should only be natural that we teach others to forgive and apologize to each other and promote peace and love, too.

 

[shotgunner]

That doesn't make any sense. Would it not be the person who believes in "a sin and still be saved doctrine" who is the unbeliever because they say you can lapse into all sorts of evils and still be saved? Many times such people do not reveal all of what they say upfront about this (Which is deceptive). Would not such a believer be like a wolf inwardly when they pretend to be like a good sheep in the beginning towards someone?

See, we know a sheep is good by what it does.
We know a wolf is bad by what it does.

Jesus said the false prophets would have an appearance of being good, but inwardly they were ravenous wolves.

Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit (i.e. their deeds).

Jason, I believe you love God and are trying to follow Jesus. I don't agree with most of what you say but I think you are arguing an impossibility. Born again people aren't looking to sin and get away with it. It's an impossibility. Yes, they will still sin but the Holy Spirit is constantly working to grow them into the image of Christ. Their spirit is changed to want and agree with the things of God. They will still have problems with their thinking and their flesh but they will overcome. Look at these scriptures from Romans chapter 5 and 6. This is a literal Greek translation.

5:21
The A. V., says "sin reigned unto death." "Reigned" is basileuoi, " to reign as king. " Here sin is personified, and refers to a nature, the totally depraved nature of the unsaved person. That reigns as an absolute monarch in his being. "Unto death" is en toi thanotoi, " in the sphere of death." Alford says that death is that in and by which the reign of sin is exercised and shown. Grace is supplied in superabundance in order that it might reign as king through righteousness, resulting in eternal life, and this eternal life in its application to the believing sinner is made possible through the Lord Jesus' work on the Cross

Translation. In order that just as the aforementioned sin reigned as king in the sphere of death, thus also the aforementioned grace might reign as king through righteousness, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1
The question reads as follows, "Shall we continue in the sinful nature?" The word "continue" is meno, " to remain, abide," It is used in the New Testament of a person abiding in some one's home as a guest, or of a person abiding in a home. It has in it the ideas of fellowship, of cordial relations, of dependence, of social intercourse. The question now can be further interpreted to mean, "Shall we continue habitually to sustain the same relationship to the sinful nature that we sustained before we were saved, a relationship which was most cordial, a relationship in which we were fully yielded to and dependent upon that sinful nature, and all this as a habit of life?" The idea of habitual action comes from the use of the present subjunctive which speaks of habitual action. The fundamental question therefore is not with regard to acts of sin but wit respect to the believer's relationship to the sinful nature. This is after all basic, acts of sin in his life being the result of the degree of his yieldedness to the sinful nature.

Translation. What then shall we say? Shall we habitually sustain an attitude of dependence upon, yieldedness to, and cordiality with the sinful nature in order that grace may abound?

(6:2) Paul now proceeds to deal with this question. His first reaction is an emotional one, "God forbid." His second answer is a rational one. He shows that for a Christian to habitually sustain the same relationship to indwelling sin, namely, that of a dependence upon it, a yieldedness to it, and a cordiality with it, is a mechanical impossibility, This he does in verses 2-14.

"God-forbid" in the Greek text is me genoito, an optative of wishing. One could translate literally, "may such a thing never occur," or interpret, "away with the thought." He declares the mechanical impossibility of such a thing in the words, "How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

The word "how" is pos, "how is it possible?" Paul is not asking a question for information, but is rather presenting a rhetorical question designed to declare the impossibility of the thing. He says that it is a mechanical impossibility for a Christian to habitually sustain the same relationship to the evil nature that he sustained before God saved him. "We" is hoitines, a relative and an indefinite pronoun put together to form a word which emphasizes quality or nature. It is, "How is it possible for such as we are, born-again children of God, to do such a thing. It is against our nature to habitually yield to the evil nature. We are not persons of such a nature as to do so."

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Yes, they will still sin but the Holy Spirit is constantly working to grow them into the image of Christ.

This is the key, to this discussion.

 

[Jason0047]

You're a fool.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).

"For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).

Yes, preach the Gospel. Pray for and love your enemies. But if you expect it do anything for you as the unbeliever you are when ISIS comes to behead you, I truly pity you awakening before the Lord Jesus Christ whom you will hear say, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you worker of lawlessness!"

Not sure how that makes any sense. Why do you think the LORD would call me a worker of lawlessness? I promote God's Law in the New Testament (and not the whole of the Law in Old Testament) and I obey His Word. Why do you think I am doing something to save myself when that is not what I believe? I believe God does the good work in me. I believe He is salvation and that it is His fruit that flows in my life (and not my fruit). So I do not understand why you would say that.

Also, all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Why? You live by the Mosaic Law while denying you do so, you falsely rename it the "law of Christ," and you don't even understand what the phrase "law of Christ" means! How could you? You are not a believer! No believer, reading the words of Christ, can possibly think his salvation depends on his/her acts, his "do's" or on his/her "don'ts."

Well, nobody actually lived by the Mosaic Law in and of itself. All men thru out time were justified by faith in the LORD. Both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. Obedience to the Law is merely the proof that God lives within you. Read Ezekiel 36:26-27. In that passage it essentially says that God gives you a new heart and a new spirit and then He places His Spirit within you to cause you to keep His laws and statutes. Nothing has really changed all that much. Except, now, we do not have to obey any of the ceremonial laws or judicial laws anymore. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Now, Jesus is our sacrifice and Heavenly High Priest that we can go to directly. However, what do you make of the words of Jesus when he says, "why do you call me LORD, LORD, and do not what I say?" Does that sound like you can disobey Jesus and still have Him as your LORD? Does not Hebrews 5:9 say that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him? My obedience or work in of itself all by it's lonesome? No. Jesus said I can do nothing of myself. And I believe Him. So it is Christ working in me to help me to obey. So Jesus will get all the glory for any good work He does in my life. I will give Him the praise and not myself.

It is not what Christ teaches. Clearly Christ teaches salvation is through grace alone, by faith alone, by the work of Christ alone, according to the Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone! Nothing you can do is ever going to be good enough to earn anything from Christ! You want us to believe our sin condemns us as believers, but utterly fail to grasp and understand that no matter how good you manage to be, it will never, ever be good enough!

So you are indeed a fool, condemned where you stand, and until you embrace Jesus Christ and Him crucified as your only hope, you will remain a fool, and condemned.

Ah, ..... "condemned." Good word choice. Let's talk about the "Condemnation" in Scripture and see what it says.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

Did you catch that? What did verse 20 say? Well, it says, "everyone who does evil hates the light." So if you believe you can do evil, verse 20 refutes that type of thinking and it says you hate the light if you do in fact do evil. This lines up with 1 John 3:8 that says that he that sins is of the devil, too. So I am not sure how this works with what you have been taught. But it surely is not in the Bible. Faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11; And no real actual faith, means that there is no access to the free gift of saving grace.

Sadly, you are so sold out to your own self-centered, egotistical, vain attempts to impossibly "be good enough" to earn something that you aren't fit to have. Wrap yourself in your works, your preaching, your exhortations and pretend they render you righteous. They are filthy rags.

Jesus wants your heart, so He can use your hands, feet, and tongue. You can't give those to Him until you give Him your heart.

You haven't, and I doubt you ever will.

How can Jesus use my hands, feet, and tongue if I am doing evil and sin instead of allowing Him to work His righteousness within me according to His Word?

 

[WoundedWarrior]

God demands an apology from us. It should only be natural that we teach others to forgive and apologize to each other and promote peace and love, too.

I agree,


The Beginning of Knowledge - Proverbs 1 English Standard Version (ESV)


to receive instruction in wise dealing,
in righteousness, justice, and equity;
4 to give prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the youth—
5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning,
and the one who understands obtain guidance,
6 to understand a proverb and a saying,
the words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction.

--and I fail to see,

righteousness, justice, and equity

simultaneously, in your comment here: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-answer-few-questions-me-33.html#post2222579

I believe this to be a trend; Reference

 

[posthuman]

I would say to continue in that passage to verses 10-12 that are part of this context, and in verses 10-11 shows by adding/doing those things an entrance into the everlasting kingdom will be supplied to us. Showing the blindness is in reference to being blinded from obeying the truth in the word on how to walk in the faith which goes hand and hand with the belief in the faith unto salvation through Christ.

yeah, that's a good point -- and i wouldn't mind posting the whole book, but i just left off with the thing that really struck me to save from making my post so big no one would read it.

not ignoring those verses at all - but here let me put them in Young's literal version:

10 wherefore, the rather, brethren, be diligent to make stedfast your calling and choice, for these things doing, ye may never stumble,
11 for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
​

in 11, this doesn't seem to me to be saying that adding these things to faith are necessary so much to secure entrance - but to secure rich entrance. the difference between having one's soul saved while all your works are burned up, and having stored up crowns and treasures in heaven.
overall i just don't get the sense that Peter is saying "you will be condemned to hell if you don't add virtue and self control and steadfastness" -- but that great is the reward if you do, that this is what is fitting for the high calling that our faith has secured, and so it is all wisdom to pursue these things, and all foolishness not to.

in 10, what he says is that if we are careful to do these things always, we will not "stumble" -- the word is not "fall away" or "lose our salvation" or "void the promises we are given" but "stumble"
i'm reminded reading it, that "though a righteous man fallseven times, he gets back up again." (Proverbs 24:16)

now obviously we don't want to stumble. and in no way do i want to promote the idea that we shouldn't bother to strive to do what is right -- that is antithetical to the gospel for sure. but overall, what Peter's saying here, to me, at least, seems to lean more toward the position that our salvation is assured on the basis of our faith, not our works - keeping in mind that "faith" is a living and active thing that endures.

the other word here that's most directly related to this thread is making "steadfast" our calling - a lot of translations say "make certain" or "make sure" in the kjv. this is the same thought that's in Hebrews 3:12-19 -- where it's written "we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end." (verse 14 - same word there "firm").
here we're also encouraged to constantly avoid "the deceitfulness of sin" -- no question that we should not continue in sin. but what is my original confidence? it's not in my own virtue -- it's in Christ's virtue. my "original confidence" is that though i am unworthy and also unable of becoming worthy, Christ has paid my price. that God Himself is working in me to complete a work. my confidence is that He will complete it - and the He is able - not that i am able, or that i will complete it.
that section of Hebrews winds up talking about how Israel could not enter the rest - and yes, it was due to sin and disobedience - but what the author there says is "we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." (verse 19)
this is again identifying faith as a living and active one, not one that we turn around and deny - Israel didn't just "stumble" in the wilderness; they whole-heartedly turned their back on the covenant, without repenting when they were chastised.

this is written for our benefit, but at the same time it's important i think to remember that our rest is based on a different hope than theirs was - where they hoped in a covenant of law, we hope in one of God's mercy and grace. we were brought into the family on different terms than what happened at Sinai. we have a new Priest, a change in law - this is also in Hebrews.

it's equally important to cease from sin. otherwise what kind of faith do we have? none at all, at worst, and dead, at best.
but what does it mean, "cease from sin" ??
more understanding through Peter -

Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.
(1 Peter 4:1-2)
​

is this saying that suffering in ourselves over sin - grieving and repenting in our hearts - equals ceasing from sin?
that is a different idea than the one that says "until all your works are 100% perfect, you have not ceased from sin" -- i don't think that latter idea is true - & confess i haven't been keeping up with the "sinless perfection" bashing threads, so i'm going to assume we are agreed on that.
as children of God we may not in these bodies be totally free from sin, but there is no way that we can enjoy it. and i think that guilt, regret, sorrow - that repentance is "suffering" in the flesh. and that this is evidence of the Spirit working in us to condemn it - and this is in fact "ceasing" from sin, no longer pursuing it, though we may be stuck in it, but pursuing instead a way out of it.

do you all agree about that? am i understanding this right?

then the evidence & surety of our salvation is in the spirit, and in the heart, not necessarily in the hands and in our works - though we certainly should make every effort to also display it there.
if this is true, then we're talking about reward and honor and wisdom, not about loss of salvation.

 

[posthuman]

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

. . .

the text (NIV) reads: "...you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom..."

In my opinion, "rich welcome" and "an entrance...will be supplied to us" have two different meanings;

one implies an exceptional welcome or better-than-normal welcome, while the other implies that you must do "these things" in order to receive "an entrance".

Seemed worth noting...
-WW

yes, exactly that! i had a much more long-winded way of saying it

comparing with this -

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved —
even though only as one escaping through the flames.
(1 Corinthians 3:13-14)

​

to enter the kingdom with a reward or with loss?
not "to enter at all?"

 

[posthuman]

See, we know a sheep is good by what it does.
We know a wolf is bad by what it does.

pardon me, but it's the Shepherd that's good - not the sheep.

we know a sheep is dumb by what it does.

hence the Shepherd.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Can you die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?Can you be out of fellowship (no doubt because of sin) and be saved?
Is all future sin paid for whereby I do not need to confess or forsake sin?
If so, then how does that line up with Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:3-4?
Can I refuse to let Christ do the "good work" in me (in what He wants me to do for Him) and be saved?
In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says I must forgive, or I will not be forgiven by the Father.
Do all believers automatically forgive, if so, then who was Jesus talking to?
Do you believe Jesus' words do not apply anymore, if so, then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing?

I sure hope so.
I think so.
I suppose so, although if you are convicted (by way of Holy Spirit) to confess or forsake then you shall/should/would/must/might/will/may/could/would/...
1.a. (If so,) Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:3-4
--Well, I don't have those verses memorized, I'll have to get back to you on that one.
2.a. (Can I) Nothing is impossible, Why would anyone do that?, Surely yes; if the Believer had "faith, like a child," or was at some point convicted and repented.
Matthew 6:15 - Another I don't have memorized --I am also reminded of the importance in remembering/memorizing scripture. Should definitely forgive others, 'cause if you don't forgive others (hold something against them, judged them, labeled them other than children of Christ) then surely you can expect to hear about it from Abba.
Do all believers- I dunno...was this a reference to Matt6:15?
Do you believe- Again, gonna have to look that up (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

-Is that what you mean, by "acid test"?