If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.

[jonl]

So sins like murder, hate, rape, sleeping with a bunch of women, and other sexual immoralities is just automatically forgiven in Christ if one lapses into doing such evils? Is that what you are saying? What happens if one dies in these types of sins? Are they still saved? How would such a belief make them different from the world and how it behaves? Does not Ephesians 4:17-27 essentially say that we used to be sinners and we are now to live unto holiness?

<skip>

He also has some great words on Once Saved Always Saved, too.

Bible verses about Once Saved Always Saved
(From Forerunner Commentary)

The concept generally described as "once saved, always saved," is the notion that, once one accepts Jesus Christ as Savior, salvation is assured. This idea is true only if it is understood as having two major conditions attached.The first is that those who accept Christ's blood for the remission of sins remain faithful in their commitment to Him. This faithfulness is loyalty to conditions, terms, persons, or agreements. The faith that saves is a living faith, meaning it is active, dynamic. Living faith works and produces within the person having it. This gives rise to the second condition for this idea to be true: Those who accept Christ as Savior must be growing, changing, and overcoming.The doctrinal concept without these conditions makes salvation into nothing more than the acceptance or mental agreement with the proposition that Jesus is Savior. It totally fails to address the reason or purpose for salvation. God has a purpose in what He is doing, a great overriding purpose, a cause, for His calling, leading us to repentance, and granting us conversion by means of His gift of the Holy Spirit.

~ John W. Ritenbaugh ​

from the article:

…two major conditions attached.The first is that those who accept Christ's blood for the remission of sins remain faithful in their commitment to Him.

“remain faithful in their commitment to Him” is something that many OSASers think is separate from salvation. But in a way that defeats the purpose of salvation.

I disagree with the other extreme of “sinless perfection” but being faithful after conversion is an important part of salvation.



​

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I think I agree -- will you, please, elaborate on this part?

“remain faithful in their commitment to Him” is something that many OSASers think is separate from salvation. But in a way that defeats the purpose of salvation.

I disagree with the other extreme of “sinless perfection” but being faithful after conversion is an important part of salvation.​

 

[Jason0047]

pardon me, but it's the Shepherd that's good - not the sheep.

we know a sheep is dumb by what it does.

hence the Shepherd.

No. The sheep follow the Shepherd. They are not evil animals or animals that are ravenous and predatory like a wolf. I mean, seriously. Why on Earth do you think doing sin or evil would be acceptable to God? Why do you think His grace covers willful evil done in the moment that is not repented of? It doesn't make any sense. For God to do that, He would have to drag Himself down to man's level of sinful depravity. But God is Holy and just and He cannot condone sin. It's just not even on the table of discussion of rational logical thought or debate. One does evil, and they are the villain of the story and not the good guy. No grace is gonna cover willfully rebellious people in the present moment. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. Jesus said he will spew out of his mouth those who are lukewarm and he desires us to be either hot or cold. Meaning, you are either all in or you are all out. You are either for His goodness or you are not.

 

[Jason0047]

from the article:


“remain faithful in their commitment to Him” is something that many OSASers think is separate from salvation. But in a way that defeats the purpose of salvation.

I disagree with the other extreme of “sinless perfection” but being faithful after conversion is an important part of salvation.

​

Sinless perfection is merely saying what Paul said and what Jesus said using different words.

#1. 1 Peter 4:1 says that they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

#2. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

#3. Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you. If you keep sinning, does not sin have dominon or control over you? At the end of Romans 6: What two types of servants or slaves can you be? Well, it says you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. It's one or the other. You can't be both.

#4. Jesus says to the woman caught in the act of adultery and to the man who was crippled to... "sin no more." He even tells the crippled man that he healed to sin no more unless a worse thing would come upon him. Does it sound like Jesus was saying that he could sin again? What would happen to the crippled man if he did sin again and disobeyed Jesus? Well, I imagine Jesus' words would come true and a worse thing would come upon him. In other words, I told you to stop hitting my arm, does that really mean I want you to keep hitting my arm? If a girl said no to a man (to stop his sexual advances), does that really mean the opposite of what she says? Think.

#5. David said he had hid God's Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD. Why would he say this if he would just uncontrollably sin anyways? Would that not defeat the purpose?

#6. Jesus says to the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane to pray so as not to be led into temptation. Now, how can you sin if God leads you out of temptation?

#7. Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Why is the Heavenly Father perfect? Well, it is because He is Holy and does not sin, right? For one cannot change the meaning of the word "perfect" because it is associated with the Heavenly Father who is holy and sinless.

 

[Gr8grace]

Humans or creatures come up with salvation plans that make the creature better.


Only a Creator could conceive a plan that a creature can still sin and be saved. The creature couldn't conceive such a plan like this.


Look at all world religions.......................the creature strives to be better.


Christianity~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~the Creator makes you perfect in your imperfection.

 

[shotgunner]

No. The sheep follow the Shepherd. They are not evil animals or animals that are ravenous and predatory like a wolf. I mean, seriously. Why on Earth do you think doing sin or evil would be acceptable to God? Why do you think His grace covers willful evil done in the moment that is not repented of? It doesn't make any sense. For God to do that, He would have to drag Himself down to man's level of sinful depravity. But God is Holy and just and He cannot condone sin. It's just not even on the table of discussion of rational logical thought or debate. One does evil, and they are the villain of the story and not the good guy. No grace is gonna cover willfully rebellious people in the present moment. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. Jesus said he will spew out of his mouth those who are lukewarm and he desires us to be either hot or cold. Meaning, you are either all in or you are all out. You are either for His goodness or you are not.

Did you read my post #653?

Saved individuals aren't willfully rebellious. They no longer have the same relationship to sin as they once did. This however is very far from saying that they are without sin. There isn't a single person without sin and any sin is a crime worthy of Hell. That's why we must have God's grace and we must have faith in his grace.




Let me put it to you this way. Before you were saved did a righteous act make you righteous. For instance when you helped a friend in need or showed love to someone, did that deed without Jesus make you righteous before God? the answer is no, only the blood of Jesus can make us righteous. Why then, if a righteous deed can't make you righteous, do you think a sin can make you unrighteous? Only your faith can make you righteous and only your disbelief can make you unrighteous.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Did you read my post #653?
Saved individuals aren't willfully rebellious. They no longer have the same relationship to sin as they once did. This however is very far from saying that they are without sin. There isn't a single person without sin and any sin is a crime worthy of Hell. That's why we must have God's grace and we must have faith in his grace.

Let me put it to you this way. Before you were saved did a righteous act make you righteous. For instance when you helped a friend in need or showed love to someone, did that deed without Jesus make you righteous before God? the answer is no, only the blood of Jesus can make us righteous. Why then, if a righteous deed can't make you righteous, do you think a sin can make you unrighteous? Only your faith can make you righteous and only your disbelief can make you unrighteous.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/118917-what-gospel-9.html#post2206851

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/118917-what-gospel-9.html#post2207143

It's a trend.

 

[Jason0047]

Can you die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?

I sure hope so.

You mean, your not sure? I am sure and have confidence 100% by the Word of God that one cannot die in unrepenant sin and still be saved. Paul says very clearly several times in the New Testament that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul says be not deceived on this matter and then Paul lists sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness. (Galatians 5:19-21) (Colossians 3:5-7) (Ephesians 5:2-8). Take for example suicide. What is suicide? Suicide is self murder. Yet, 1 John 3:15 says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So if anyone self murders themselves and they do not have eternal life in them, then they are not saved. For one obviously needs eternal life in order to be saved. Also, if anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. (1 Corinthians 3:17). So I really do not see how one can say they can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved.

Can you be out of fellowship (no doubt because of sin) and be saved?

I think so.

Well, saying you "think so" does not sound like you are all too sure. Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

Is all future sin paid for whereby I do not need to confess or forsake sin?

I suppose so,

You said, "I suppose so."? Meaning you really don't know again. First, what verse specifically says all future sin is forgiven? I am not talking about those verses that say all our sin is forgiven. That can just as easily be argued of talking about all our past sins. In fact, if we are told to confess our sins in order to be forgiven of sin in 1 John 1:9, then how is such a thing possible if you are already forgiven of all future sin? Sounds kind of self defeating if you ask me. Either 1 John 1:9 is true or what the OSAS Proponent says is true.

although if you are convicted (by way of Holy Spirit) to confess or forsake then you shall/should/would/must/might/will/may/could/would/...

So which is it? Could? Would? Might? Doesn't sound like you are sure what is the outcome. Does it really matter if they confess sin or not in regards to their salvation? Yes or no? Well, if you say ... "no" then you have to explain 1 John 1:9. Also, you have to explain Proverbs 28:13 that says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy, too.

If so, then how does that line up with Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:3-4?

1.a. (If so,) Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:3-4
--Well, I don't have those verses memorized, I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Well, I already briefly discussed 1 John 1:9 and Proverbs 28:13. Now, lets move on to 1 John 2:3-4. It says in 1 John 2:3 that we can essentially have an assurance in knowing Him (the LORD) if we find that we are keeping His commandments. In 1 John 2:4 it says he that says he knows Him (the LORD) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Okay, sounds to me like this is pretty bullet proof passage here. How can one say their future sin is covered and they can abide in unrepentant sin because of some false thinking that their future sin is forgiven if 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar if we say we know him and we do not keep His commandments?

Can I refuse to let Christ do the "good work" in me (in what He wants me to do for Him) and be saved?

2.a. (Can I) Nothing is impossible, Why would anyone do that?, Surely yes; if the Believer had "faith, like a child," or was at some point convicted and repented.

I am not sure you understood what I meant. Can a believer willingly plan to deceive God and just believe on Jesus and live a double life in sin and just plan to repent before he dies? Thereby having a mental belief requirement of the OSAS faith. Can someone really be saved by doing something like that? Can someone do both good and evil and expect to be saved with no repentance? Did not Jesus say he that saves his life shall lose it and he that shall lose his life for my sake shall save it? (Luke 9:24). Does that sound like you can live for yourself and still be saved according to Jesus's words here?

Matthew 6:15 - Another I don't have memorized --I am also reminded of the importance in remembering/memorizing scripture.

I find the best way to memorize Scripture is using the same verses over and over here in my discussions here. *Winks* In fact, when I reply to a person's post, in some cases I may spend hours reading many Christian articles and researching the Scriptures (Depending on the post of course). In a few cases, I have spent a week in reply to a person's post if I discovered something new and exciting or an interesting challenge in the Scriptures. But for me it is natural to flip back and forth between replying to a person's post and then reading what that person quoted in the Scriptures online. I would encourage you to try the same.

My favorite websites that I would recommend to read the Bible are:

Biblos.com Bible Study Tools
Biblegateway.com

Best App to copy and past verses into a post:

Holy Bible (You Version)

My favorite search tools for finding keywords in the Bible is BlueLetterBible.org
(If one needs to, they can do a search on the original languages by clicking the Strong's Button at top on their website).
(Then click on the number next to the word).

My favorite cross reference website is:
Bible Cross References

In Matthew 6:15, Jesus says I must forgive, or I will not be forgiven by the Father.
Do all believers automatically forgive, if so, then who was Jesus talking to?

Should definitely forgive others, 'cause if you don't forgive others (hold something against them, judged them, labeled them other than children of Christ) then surely you can expect to hear about it from Abba.
Do all believers- I dunno...was this a reference to Matt6:15?

Do you believe Jesus' words do not apply anymore, if so, then why does Paul say in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing?

Do you believe- Again, gonna have to look that up (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

I say this because some believe that Matthew 6:15 does not apply to the believer because they think Paul taught another gospel that was different than the gospel of Jesus Christ. These folks are called Mid Acts Dispensationalists (or MAD Proponents). There were quite a few of them at the previous Christian forum I was on called Theology Online (TOL). However, there are many verses that refute such a false doctrine (Which was no doubt created to protect OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved). Anyways, the point I am getting at is that they ignore the words of Jesus (Because it is much easier to twist the words of Paul around). But Jesus says, if you do not forgive, then you will not be forgiven by the Father. Jesus is clearly speaking to believers here because it would do no good for an unbeliever to forgive everyone. For it would be a futile excercise because they would need to accept Christ in order to be forgiven. Forgiving people is not going to help them be saved. So Jesus is speaking to the believer. This means that when Jesus says to believers that if they do not forgive otherwise they will not be forgiven, he means exactly that. Salvation or forgiveness is Conditional on whether or not you forgive others. So this refutes the idea that you are Once Saved Always Saved or that you can sin and still be saved.

-Is that what you mean, by "acid test"?

Yes.

Anyways, I do hope what I said here has helped.
May God's love shine upon you and please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

 

[Jason0047]

Did you read my post #653?

Saved individuals aren't willfully rebellious. They no longer have the same relationship to sin as they once did. This however is very far from saying that they are without sin. There isn't a single person without sin and any sin is a crime worthy of Hell. That's why we must have God's grace and we must have faith in his grace.




Let me put it to you this way. Before you were saved did a righteous act make you righteous. For instance when you helped a friend in need or showed love to someone, did that deed without Jesus make you righteous before God? the answer is no, only the blood of Jesus can make us righteous. Why then, if a righteous deed can't make you righteous, do you think a sin can make you unrighteous? Only your faith can make you righteous and only your disbelief can make you unrighteous.

Really? All saved believers will always obey? Well, for the Elect this may be true, and for those who have "root in God's Word" this may be true, but not every born again saved believer is going to make it. How so? Just look at Matthew 6:15. Jesus says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father. Who was Jesus speaking to in that verse? Unbelievers or believers? Well, we know that it would do no good for an unbeliever to forgive everyone in regards to them being saved. An unbeliever would have to first accept Jesus in order to be saved. So this is talking to the believer. Now, if you are of the camp of Mid Acts Dispensationalism that says there is two or more gospels, that seeks to deny the words of Jesus as being binding for the believer today, then how do you explain 1 Timothy 6:3-4? For in that passage, Paul essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

 

[Jason0047]

Humans or creatures come up with salvation plans that make the creature better.


Only a Creator could conceive a plan that a creature can still sin and be saved. The creature couldn't conceive such a plan like this.


Look at all world religions.......................the creature strives to be better.


Christianity~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~the Creator makes you perfect in your imperfection.

The difference between the world religions and Christianity is not that you live in depravity of sin with the thinking you are still saved while others strive to live righteously by some external law. The difference is having Jesus Christ in heart and life whereby He saves you (When you repent of your sins and you accept Him as your Savior) and whereby He then does the "good work" in you (or thru you). For if one is saved, then surely they have God living within them; And if one has God living within them, then surely the fruits of the LORD will be evident in their life. This is not the same thing as the false relgionist who is trying to save himself externally.

 

[jonl]

I think I agree -- will you, please, elaborate on this part?

There seems to be opposing, extreme trends of “sinless perfection” vs. OSAS.

IMO, the “sinless perfection” extremist view is almost as flawed as the OSAS extremist view. Those who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are not looking for “justification for sin” as the extreme perfectionists say.

However, obedience to Jesus’ words is essential to salvation, contrary to what most OSASers think.

It’s interesting how the extreme perfectionists (no sin whatsoever) are using extreme OSAS ideas (“justification for sin”) to bash regular christians, and extreme OSASers are using extreme perfectionist ideas (“ah ha, you sinned, so you’re not a christian”) to bash regular christians.

IMO, true salvation is somewhere between the two extremes.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I believe you love God and are trying to follow Jesus. I don't agree with most of what you say but I think you are arguing an impossibility. Born again people aren't looking to sin and get away with it. It's an impossibility. Yes, they will still sin but the Holy Spirit is constantly working to grow them into the image of Christ. Their spirit is changed to want and agree with the things of God. They will still have problems with their thinking and their flesh but they will overcome. Look at these scriptures from Romans chapter 5 and 6. This is a literal Greek translation.

5:21
The A. V., says "sin reigned unto death." "Reigned" is basileuoi, " to reign as king. " Here sin is personified, and refers to a nature, the totally depraved nature of the unsaved person. That reigns as an absolute monarch in his being. "Unto death" is en toi thanotoi, " in the sphere of death." Alford says that death is that in and by which the reign of sin is exercised and shown. Grace is supplied in superabundance in order that it might reign as king through righteousness, resulting in eternal life, and this eternal life in its application to the believing sinner is made possible through the Lord Jesus' work on the Cross

Translation. In order that just as the aforementioned sin reigned as king in the sphere of death, thus also the aforementioned grace might reign as king through righteousness, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1
The question reads as follows, "Shall we continue in the sinful nature?" The word "continue" is meno, " to remain, abide," It is used in the New Testament of a person abiding in some one's home as a guest, or of a person abiding in a home. It has in it the ideas of fellowship, of cordial relations, of dependence, of social intercourse. The question now can be further interpreted to mean, "Shall we continue habitually to sustain the same relationship to the sinful nature that we sustained before we were saved, a relationship which was most cordial, a relationship in which we were fully yielded to and dependent upon that sinful nature, and all this as a habit of life?" The idea of habitual action comes from the use of the present subjunctive which speaks of habitual action. The fundamental question therefore is not with regard to acts of sin but wit respect to the believer's relationship to the sinful nature. This is after all basic, acts of sin in his life being the result of the degree of his yieldedness to the sinful nature.

Translation. What then shall we say? Shall we habitually sustain an attitude of dependence upon, yieldedness to, and cordiality with the sinful nature in order that grace may abound?

(6:2) Paul now proceeds to deal with this question. His first reaction is an emotional one, "God forbid." His second answer is a rational one. He shows that for a Christian to habitually sustain the same relationship to indwelling sin, namely, that of a dependence upon it, a yieldedness to it, and a cordiality with it, is a mechanical impossibility, This he does in verses 2-14.

"God-forbid" in the Greek text is me genoito, an optative of wishing. One could translate literally, "may such a thing never occur," or interpret, "away with the thought." He declares the mechanical impossibility of such a thing in the words, "How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

The word "how" is pos, "how is it possible?" Paul is not asking a question for information, but is rather presenting a rhetorical question designed to declare the impossibility of the thing. He says that it is a mechanical impossibility for a Christian to habitually sustain the same relationship to the evil nature that he sustained before God saved him. "We" is hoitines, a relative and an indefinite pronoun put together to form a word which emphasizes quality or nature. It is, "How is it possible for such as we are, born-again children of God, to do such a thing. It is against our nature to habitually yield to the evil nature. We are not persons of such a nature as to do so."

I think people should study and know the Bible in plain English inside and out before they ever consider tackling Greek. For the English does not say something different than what the Greek says. For the problem I see is that someone can look at what Strong and his buddies created (i.e. the Strong's Concordance) and then they can choose their own definition they prefer to make their own theology or belief. In other words, it is a choose your own interpretation adventure Bible. Let's make the Bible say what we want it to say. For nobody today has ever grown up speaking or writing Biblical Greek like Paul and the others had. Did not Jesus favor the poor and the simple? Did not Jesus say beward of the Scribes (i.e. those who tranSCRIBED the Law)? Granted, there is nothing wrong with studying the Greek and looking up a word on occasion; But the problem I see is that many folks today just flat out ignoring what the Bible says in English in favor of of a word they CHOSE in the Greek, though. For did you repent hearing the Greek? My guess is that was probably not the case.

In other words, we are not on the same playing field when you CHOOSE a defintion of your own CHOICE for a Greek word. There is no common ground to communicate upon then. The only way is if we communicate in a language that you cannot twist so easily or mess around with so as to make a passage say what you want it to say.

 

[Jason0047]

There seems to be opposing, extreme trends of “sinless perfection” vs. OSAS.

IMO, the “sinless perfection” extremist view is almost as flawed as the OSAS extremist view. Those who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior are not looking for “justification for sin” as the extreme perfectionists say.

However, obedience to Jesus’ words is essential to salvation, contrary to what most OSASers think.

It’s interesting how the extreme perfectionists (no sin whatsoever) are using extreme OSAS ideas (“justification for sin”) to bash regular christians, and extreme OSASers are using extreme perfectionist ideas (“ah ha, you sinned, so you’re not a christian”) to bash regular christians.

IMO, true salvation is somewhere between the two extremes.

Please address the verses and points I brought up with Scripture if you disagree.

 

[Jason0047]

In the mean time, check out this video here:

[VIDEO=youtube;-AQtoN_HdIo]https://youtu.be/-AQtoN_HdIo[/VIDEO]

 

[Adelissa]

It would be really hard for me to trust someone who offered me a gift and then kept taking it back. I feel like NOT believing OSAS cheapens Jesus' sacrifice. It is more powerful and life giving than my ability to always do good. Also, the verse the Lord chastens those he loves... I have never seen a Christian out of fellowship or what some would call backslidden, happy, and the ones I have seen (myself included) always come back to the fold repentant. We do good not to earn salvation but because God meets us where we are and starts us on an amazing journey of sanctification/holiness. We may go two steps forward one step back at times but the desire is always in us to honor our savior and Lord. Just my 2 cents based on my 19 years of experiencing the love by one who will never let me go. No one not even I can take me out of the palm of His hand.

 

[Jason0047]

It would be really hard for me to trust someone who offered me a gift and then kept taking it back. I feel like NOT believing OSAS cheapens Jesus' sacrifice. It is more powerful and life giving than my ability to always do good. Also, the verse the Lord chastens those he loves... I have never seen a Christian out of fellowship or what some would call backslidden, happy, and the ones I have seen (myself included) always come back to the fold repentant. We do good not to earn salvation but because God meets us where we are and starts us on an amazing journey of sanctification/holiness. We may go two steps forward one step back at times but the desire is always in us to honor our savior and Lord. Just my 2 cents based on my 19 years of experiencing the love by one who will never let me go. No one not even I can take me out of the palm of His hand.

Gifts come with responsibities. A car can be received as a free gift, but if you text while drivng, or if you drove while intoxicated, or if you ran red lights, or if you hit pedestrians, chances are you are not going to have that free gift for long.

I mean, you can look at a soul mate that God gives to you in the same way. He is a gift from God to you. But if you do not do certain things to show that you are committed to him, then you are not going to end up with your soul mate (that you could have had).

It's no different with God. It's not about you earning your salvation. Perish the thought. It's about maintaining a relationship with God. It's about a walk in Him; And if God truly lives in a person, then the fruit of God (Not the fruit of the believer) is going to be evident in their life.

But God does not force a believer to continue to be with Him, though. Each day it is a choice. A believer still has their free will to either to continue to abide in Christ and His words or to not to abide in Christ and His Word.

But can a believer truly fall away and not be forgiven? Again, as I said before, who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? If you say it is the unbeliever than how can you explain how it does any good to tell an unbeliever about unforgiveness if they are not even forgiven yet? For does not an unbeliever need to accept Jesus to be saved? So Jesus was talking to the believer. Which means that if such is true, then he was saying it was possible for the believer to not be forgiven by the Father if they do not forgive others. It's a condition. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Do not forgive and you will not be forgiven. Can a believer be saved and yet not be forgiven? I don't think so. In other words, we know that it is possible for a believer to fall away just by looking at Matthew 6:15 and understanding who Jesus was speaking to.

I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.

 

[Ella85]

I agree...I call everyone dude and no one I know gets offended about it....maybe their level of maturity makes the difference....

Yeh, someone you can have a laugh with and someone who is down to earth and doesn't take everything so seriously ...yeh I get it

 

[Ella85]

I guarantee you that your chances of not getting that job are increased if you called them a "dude." I guarantee that your significant other's father would not be as impressed with you if you kept calling him "dude" the first time you met.

Jason if you are going to give an example please give a good comparison, as your way of thinking is absurd.
You are not an employer, you are just another person here on CC.
Dude is a relaxed way of saying MATE or FRIEND or BUDDY.
Your perception on words seems to be different to 99% of people here on CC which is why you find it so difficult to understand what other people are saying because you seem to think people are attacking you.
If you are strong in Christ then I suggest you start realising that people are not out to get you.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

That doesn't make any sense.

It does to a true believer, which obviously you are not. You wallow around in human understanding and pretend it is God-given revelation. There is no hope for you in your current state.

Would it not be the person who believes in "a sin and still be saved doctrine" who is the unbeliever because they say you can lapse into all sorts of evils and still be saved?

This is your mantra, the lie you cling to as justification for your false beliefs. You totally fail to understand -- because you are not a Christian, and therefore cannot understand! -- that a believer will not "lapse into all sorts of evils" with planned forethought that absolutely denies Christ's love which He inspires in us.

Did you love your parents? Did you know they loved you? And knowing that did you absolutely deny that love and determine to do whatever you wanted, knowing how hurtful and disappointing that would be to the ones who brought you into the world and loved you unconditionally? If you did, you did not love them, and proved you did not really belong to them.

So does the one who claims the blood of Christ but denies it through his/her unbridled sin. The one who believes in Christ's death on the cross and His resurrection three days later has paid the price for sin that he/she could never pay, justifying them before God in a way nothing they do could ever manage, and establishing them in the eternal life of fellowship with God -- that one will never, ever act in such a rebellious way that denies Christ's love and sacrifice.

That is not to say they will not sin. We all do, Jason -- even you! -- though I'm sure you deny it. I've seen you deny it, and I know you lie. But just as when we broke curfew or took Dad's car without permission or came home drunk, and knew we had wronged our parents and would face consequences -- they never disowned us, and neither will God. Chastise us, correct us, inspire us to change, absolutely. But disown? Never!

The only one who believes that is God's justice does not know Him. You do not know Him Jason, or you could never believe the false teaching you spew on this board. If you don't begin to realize you are lost, you do not know Christ, that you have believed a false gospel, you will die in your sin and hear those dreaded words "I never knew you" and spend eternity in hell. That is your destiny at this moment.

I pray for your salvation. But you must stop spewing and start listening, or it will not happen. Your pride clouds you ability to see the truth, and makes you believe in Satan's lies that prevent you from being free.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

This is your mantra, the lie you cling to as justification for your false beliefs. You totally fail to understand -- because you are not a Christian, and therefore cannot understand! -- that a believer will not "lapse into all sorts of evils" with planned forethought that absolutely denies Christ's love which He inspires in us.

Would it not be the person who believes in "a sin and still be saved doctrine" who is the unbeliever because they say you can lapse into all sorts of evils and still be saved?

Starting a question with: "Would it not be..." further complicates an already complex question.

Does one need to be extraordinary in deciphering code, in order to receive the gift of Salvation? (No.)