To the Godless American Church...
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Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Established how?
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
The Law of Moses is made redundant under the New Covenant. The Law of Moses was always but a shadow of the Law of Love.
The ministry of righteousness via the Law is indeed abolished under the New Covenant. The ministry of righteousness via faith (that works by love) is in full effect under the New Covenant.
The standard is not premised on the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses could only ever deal with the EXTERNAL. The standard is premised upon LOVE and the new birth is via the Spirit unto wholehearted love of God and wholehearted love of our neighbour. By focusing on the Law of Moses as the standard one is simply focusing on the shadow instead of the source.
The standard has always been the law written upon the heart which is simply another way of saying LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR.
Eph 2:15 speaks of the law contained in ordinances (ie. rites and rituals, taste not, touch not, keep this holy day). Under the Old Covenant God set up the sacrificial system and the ordinances as the means by which Israel could approach God, all that is done away with under the New Covenant which is purely of the heart.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
What was abolished? What came to an end?
Simple. A ministration of righteousness through the law.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
We are delivered from the law unto a ministration of righteousness through the Spirit.
Who is claiming that the Torah has been abolished? The Torah is a historical record from Adam to Moses, one cannot abolish a historical record.
What is abolished is simply the ministration of righteousness through the Law of Moses. To attempt to put people under the yolk of the Law of Moses is silly. We are under the yoik of Christ whereby we walk according to the Spirit. If one thinks that one has to add the Law of Moses to that then one does not understand righteousness through faith, faith which does not void the law but fulfills it (because the law is but a shadow of love and it is love which fulfills).
We don't follow shadows but abide in the source which is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. There are many who use scripture to propagate the concept that the law is abolished right here on CC. By teaching that, it diminishes our need for daily salvation, because sin ceases to be identified by the whole truth.
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13
We are not saved by the "works of the law."
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23
For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2
The 2nd priesthood of Levi has been taken over by the 1st priesthood after the order of Melchisedec.
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 6:20
Paul said of himself "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" Acts 24:14
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13
We are not saved by the "works of the law."
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23
For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corinthians 6:2
The 2nd priesthood of Levi has been taken over by the 1st priesthood after the order of Melchisedec.
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 6:20
Paul said of himself "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" Acts 24:14
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V
Writing from the Philippines, I wonder how much you actually know about the vast majority of American churches. No offense, but claiming that "for the most part" our chuches have forgotten how to walk in Christ is easy for someone so many thousands of miles to say. But do you really know? Unless you are a recently-visiting American living in the Philippines, I doubt it.
Many churches have become influenced by the sociopolitical liberalism that infects our government. But that is by no means all of them, and there are many upright, Bible-believing and -preaching churches in the U.S. that continue to uphold the Gospel of Christ.
Simply because from the outside looking in the church appears to be failing, doesn't make it so. It isn't really the church that is failing. It is the American people who are failing themselves.
Not sure what you mean by this, but true salvation cannot be lost.
Again, a broadly wielded brush that fails to consider reality in most of today's U.S. churches.
This is an absolutely false interpretation of the verse. No one walks perfectly all the time. Everyone stumbles. You put the onus of salvation on the believer with this view, and it is not on the believer, but on Christ's finished work on the cross, and in His resurrection from the dead.
Actually, that's exactly what part of the Gospel is. The other part is that by His resurrection we are, as believers in His death for our salvation -- paying the price we cannot pay -- He establishes us in His Kingdom of eternal life in Him. Heaven, however, is not our goal. Giving our lives over to Christ to live through us is our goal. Each and every day we become more Christlike. Some of us get it quicker than others, but none of us ever get it totally right in this life.
So you are American? Then why do you have a Philippinian flag as your national identity?
This reads quite well, might even make someone stand up and shout "Amen!" But it isn't accurate.
We don't need to "do" to "be" in Christ. All we need to "do" is make ourselves open and available to His leading. You and several others on this board seem to think you have to prove yourself to Christ through obedient action. But action isn't obedience. Love is obedience, and love conquers all. If someone claims Christ's blood and resurrection, but sets about "doing" for Christ, he/she does not truly understand the Gospel, and these are the ones who "may not be saved at all."
Nothing we "do" is worth anything to a God who can simply speak to create. We have no power, and God does not give us power. It is too dangerous a thing for us to handle. He expends power on our behalf when we simply believe, and open our hearts to His will.
It's so simple we make it impossible: There is no "doing." There is only being in Christ.
Many churches have become influenced by the sociopolitical liberalism that infects our government. But that is by no means all of them, and there are many upright, Bible-believing and -preaching churches in the U.S. that continue to uphold the Gospel of Christ.
Simply because from the outside looking in the church appears to be failing, doesn't make it so. It isn't really the church that is failing. It is the American people who are failing themselves.
Not sure what you mean by this, but true salvation cannot be lost.
Again, a broadly wielded brush that fails to consider reality in most of today's U.S. churches.
This is an absolutely false interpretation of the verse. No one walks perfectly all the time. Everyone stumbles. You put the onus of salvation on the believer with this view, and it is not on the believer, but on Christ's finished work on the cross, and in His resurrection from the dead.
Actually, that's exactly what part of the Gospel is. The other part is that by His resurrection we are, as believers in His death for our salvation -- paying the price we cannot pay -- He establishes us in His Kingdom of eternal life in Him. Heaven, however, is not our goal. Giving our lives over to Christ to live through us is our goal. Each and every day we become more Christlike. Some of us get it quicker than others, but none of us ever get it totally right in this life.
So you are American? Then why do you have a Philippinian flag as your national identity?
This reads quite well, might even make someone stand up and shout "Amen!" But it isn't accurate.
We don't need to "do" to "be" in Christ. All we need to "do" is make ourselves open and available to His leading. You and several others on this board seem to think you have to prove yourself to Christ through obedient action. But action isn't obedience. Love is obedience, and love conquers all. If someone claims Christ's blood and resurrection, but sets about "doing" for Christ, he/she does not truly understand the Gospel, and these are the ones who "may not be saved at all."
Nothing we "do" is worth anything to a God who can simply speak to create. We have no power, and God does not give us power. It is too dangerous a thing for us to handle. He expends power on our behalf when we simply believe, and open our hearts to His will.
It's so simple we make it impossible: There is no "doing." There is only being in Christ.
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K
The Bible tells us "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Heb. Those who are new in the faith especially need encouragement of the fellowship of other Christians.Not every church preaches easy grace,or not a strong message.I have attended hundreds of churches and many preach the truth. That is how a Christian grows,from good preaching.
If we study to see if what we are told is true (Acts 17:10-11 “But as soon as night fell, the brothers sent Paul and Silas off to Berea. As soon as they arrived, they went to the synagogue. Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the scriptures every day to see if the things Paul was saying were true.”) and matches everything else in scripture we will know if a person is telling the truth (2 Peter 1:20 “First of all, understand this: no prophecy [a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden] of Scripture is to be interpreted by an individual on his own”).
L
I think the problem with many churches is that they do not know how to receive from God and are too busy trying to take care of themselves instead of allowing God to do that job. In the following excerpt form an article in Partnership Mag. it explains this sort of mindset.
Our problem with faith—like Jesus’ disciples—is that we take too little from the Lord. What did Jesus usually say to His disciples when He chided them? He usually said, “Oh you of little faith.” Little faith? What was Jesus telling them in essence? “I am so full of supply, why do you take so little from Me?”
Even Jesus’ chiding of His disciples is so full of love and encouragement! Notice He didn’t say, “Oh you of little fasting,” or “Oh you of little prayer.” He said, “Oh you of little faith.” He was telling them, “Draw morefrom Me, take more from My supply.”
Our faith is small when we take only a little from God. When we take little from Him for our needs, we must be taking from somewhere else. This means that our faith is in someone or something else and God is just a “standby” or “last resort”. That should not be the case. God should always come first. Man will fail and disappoint you, but God will never!
Typically, most of us are not good receivers. When you give someone a gift, you often hear them say, “Oh no, you shouldn’t have. I don’t deserve this.” We all need to ask God to make us better receivers, to enlarge our capacities to receive not based on how deserving we think we are, but based solely on His grace to supply and give.
Because we are such poor receivers, when we do take, we take a little or just enough. We tell ourselves that that’s the polite and refined thing to do. Now, we are not talking about hoarding and being greedy, especially at the buffet table! it's about how God’s nature or style is to give you as much as you want.
Look at the feeding of the 5,000
John 6:11–12
And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted. So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”
The men, women and children ate “as much as they wanted” until “they were filled” Everyone ate to his heart’s content!
Maybe you have been told this: “It all depends on God’s will. Sometimes He supplies more, sometimes He supplies less. God works in mysterious ways.” Yet, when you read the Bible for yourself, you’ll find that God’s style is to give us as much as we want. The supply only stops when we say, “Enough, Lord! Stop!”
So here’s the bottom-line: In God’s kingdom, the supply never runs out. It only stops, as far as you are concerned, when you tell God to stop supplying. You decide. As your loving heavenly Father, God gives lavishly and freely to you. And He can do this judiciously because of His Son’s finished work at the cross. God does not give with a miserly hand. He is not cheap or stingy. God loves you and His love gives. His love over-supplies.
Your part is just to exercise faith by taking from God. People often say, “Depend on God. Depend on God.” Sometimes, this sounds a bit abstract. How do you depend on God? You choose to see His loving heart and generous supply when others see only the demand. And you reach out in faith and take from God.
When you realize that it’s all about God’s love and undeserved favor toward you, you’ll be thanking God all the time. Instead of complaining and being stressed out when you are demand-centered, you’ll be at rest and have more than enough to give to others. May we choose to live in the realm of God’s constant supply and lavish love!
God doesn't need me to do something., I need HIM to do anything. The focus is on Him and not me. And when the focus is on Him., we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.
Our problem with faith—like Jesus’ disciples—is that we take too little from the Lord. What did Jesus usually say to His disciples when He chided them? He usually said, “Oh you of little faith.” Little faith? What was Jesus telling them in essence? “I am so full of supply, why do you take so little from Me?”
Even Jesus’ chiding of His disciples is so full of love and encouragement! Notice He didn’t say, “Oh you of little fasting,” or “Oh you of little prayer.” He said, “Oh you of little faith.” He was telling them, “Draw morefrom Me, take more from My supply.”
Our faith is small when we take only a little from God. When we take little from Him for our needs, we must be taking from somewhere else. This means that our faith is in someone or something else and God is just a “standby” or “last resort”. That should not be the case. God should always come first. Man will fail and disappoint you, but God will never!
Typically, most of us are not good receivers. When you give someone a gift, you often hear them say, “Oh no, you shouldn’t have. I don’t deserve this.” We all need to ask God to make us better receivers, to enlarge our capacities to receive not based on how deserving we think we are, but based solely on His grace to supply and give.
Because we are such poor receivers, when we do take, we take a little or just enough. We tell ourselves that that’s the polite and refined thing to do. Now, we are not talking about hoarding and being greedy, especially at the buffet table! it's about how God’s nature or style is to give you as much as you want.
Look at the feeding of the 5,000
John 6:11–12
And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted. So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.”
The men, women and children ate “as much as they wanted” until “they were filled” Everyone ate to his heart’s content!
Maybe you have been told this: “It all depends on God’s will. Sometimes He supplies more, sometimes He supplies less. God works in mysterious ways.” Yet, when you read the Bible for yourself, you’ll find that God’s style is to give us as much as we want. The supply only stops when we say, “Enough, Lord! Stop!”
So here’s the bottom-line: In God’s kingdom, the supply never runs out. It only stops, as far as you are concerned, when you tell God to stop supplying. You decide. As your loving heavenly Father, God gives lavishly and freely to you. And He can do this judiciously because of His Son’s finished work at the cross. God does not give with a miserly hand. He is not cheap or stingy. God loves you and His love gives. His love over-supplies.
Your part is just to exercise faith by taking from God. People often say, “Depend on God. Depend on God.” Sometimes, this sounds a bit abstract. How do you depend on God? You choose to see His loving heart and generous supply when others see only the demand. And you reach out in faith and take from God.
When you realize that it’s all about God’s love and undeserved favor toward you, you’ll be thanking God all the time. Instead of complaining and being stressed out when you are demand-centered, you’ll be at rest and have more than enough to give to others. May we choose to live in the realm of God’s constant supply and lavish love!
God doesn't need me to do something., I need HIM to do anything. The focus is on Him and not me. And when the focus is on Him., we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.
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S
... is going to hell and the American Church, at this time, is powerless to stop it; American Christians are content with going through the motions, jumping through religious hoops, and doing what THEY THINK will please God. All of which is being performed through self effort, void of the presence and power of God. They do not take the time necessary to walk in and maintain an awareness of the presence of God so that they might immediately hear and respond to the will (heart) of God throughout each day, every day. Consistant abiding in Christ is an absolute necessity in order to operate in the power of God so that souls will be saved, bodies will be healed, and captives will be set free.
This reads quite well, might even make someone stand up and shout "Amen!" But it isn't accurate.
We don't need to "do" to "be" in Christ. All we need to "do" is make ourselves open and available to His leading. You and several others on this board seem to think you have to prove yourself to Christ through obedient action. But action isn't obedience. Love is obedience, and love conquers all. If someone claims Christ's blood and resurrection, but sets about "doing" for Christ, he/she does not truly understand the Gospel, and these are the ones who "may not be saved at all."
Nothing we "do" is worth anything to a God who can simply speak to create. We have no power, and God does not give us power. It is too dangerous a thing for us to handle. He expends power on our behalf when we simply believe, and open our hearts to His will.
It's so simple we make it impossible: There is not "doing." There is only being in Christ.
Herein is the crux of the matter. We can't judge "being", only God can. We can only see fruit, but fruit grows as a natural occurrence and as a result of connection to the vine. Many have the sequence backwards. They try to bear fruit in order to be worthy of the connection to the vine. They bear fruit of the flesh and reap dissatisfaction.
The law was never meant to show man how to live. It was only meant to show men their imperfection, in order to impress upon them their need for a savior. However many seem to believe that we are now free from all law. The law we are to follow is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. "I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." The Holy Spirit is to be our guide and our teacher, to lead us into all righteousness. The Holy Spirit can lead where the old law never could. He can help you find the right husband or wife, the right job. He can lead you in every aspect of life. The lack of communication with the Holy Spirit and reliance on self is a huge problem for Christians at large.
Just to clarify what I said, I wouldn't actually discourage someone from going to a church as there is the hope that they could still learn truth anyway. I thought I might have sounded like I would tell people to stay away from churches altogether.
Several years ago I got bored with my Christian walk - it was mundane, no excitement, nothing in scripture seemed to reveal anything new, but I had been told that every time we read scripture we should see something from a new perspective or learn something new and such. So I got serious with God and asked Him to show me or tell me what to do to pull out of my miserable state. I knew even then that salvation was not a one-time trip to the altar and you're set. We haven't been "saved" to sit back and expect God to do whatever we want Him to. If that was the case there would be no instructions in the Bible telling Christians to speak and act in order to have the mind of Christ (For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:16 NAS)
He directed me to study original real Christianity, the way Christ taught it. It has required a lot of research to find out what was real and what is just tradition that we have been taught is right but the effort is well worth it. I no longer have a boring ho-hum Christian walk and my relationship with The Most High God is so very fulfilling and downright exciting now. Of course, I guess that would stand to reason since all good relationships are two-way streets.
Also, I learned something a few years ago after I got onboard with what God had told me to study, about gathering together/assembling ourselves but I can’t remember where I found it. Anyway, it explained that before “churches” as such, people worked all week and di their jobs, etc. and on the day of rest, gathered together and conversed with one another sharing what God had done for them throughout the previous week. That was encouragement and edification and they all helped each other that way. I think that would be amazing!
K
Just a couple points...You said "You see, salvation is not about what we think or what we do." I dont think the Bible teaches that. Acts...."and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."… Also in Mark "They went out and preached that men should repent." Believe and repent is what the Bible says.
You said "The genuine gospel of Jesus Christ is not that He died for your sins so that you would not have to, as some believe & teach today. Rather, it is that He gave His life so that He may reside in you and you in Him. "
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] I dont those two things are mutually exclusive.1 John 3:5...[/FONT]You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. The fact that Christ died for our sins is a very important teaching and should not be diminished.It is very much a part of the genuine gospel.Christ died so we didnt have to,He died so we dont have to kill animals and shed blood.Id say that is an important teaching.
OP what you are preaching is true but I used to preach like you. No one wants it unfortunatly because people are not light Spirit filled they dont get it mostly so they reject you with your strong attitude and ultimatly the truth. all because they way you siad it. I seen it so many time. I find it take longer but pays dividends if you ask the question rather than tell them how it is. When I come in here I tell how it is much like you. I get rejected so does the truth So Now I am slowly learning whats the diference with in here and in the world where I live. They know me where I live and know I live what I opreach so it more exceptable where I live than in here, because they know me. So try and slow down. You can praech the truth and be right but you are still wrong because of how ya do it 
Thanks for the truth I know it and except it and dont get upset when I see it. But You told us only half of the truth?
Thanks for the truth I know it and except it and dont get upset when I see it. But You told us only half of the truth?
K
Thanks for the clarification.I certainly agree,there is a song called "Jesus Commands us to Go" by a man named Keith Green.He passed away years ago but convicted me as a teenager. I listen to those songs for hours.Finally I began singing and ministry that lasted 20yrs. I left about 6yrs ago to get married and slow down a bit. Then a family member,of all things,told me that when his wife had breast cancer they listened to our CD everyday to help them through that difficult time.God was doing things I knew nothing about! Still makes me cry.I'd agree a lot of ministry happens outside the church doors.I attended a church once that said over the doors "you are now entering your mission field" We're not all called to be missionaries but we're all called to "go".
G
I would love to see one of these "greasy grace" Churches.
I have been all over and have NEVER seen a church like this.
My experience is either , Arminian theology,reformed theology or RCC. And they all push deeds and fruit.
Where are these "eat drink and be merry" churches? Can you post a link to one?
I have been all over and have NEVER seen a church like this.
My experience is either , Arminian theology,reformed theology or RCC. And they all push deeds and fruit.
Where are these "eat drink and be merry" churches? Can you post a link to one?