this is the point that is missed by " people " on here time and time again. God can and will judge each and everyone because he knows the hearts on men, as Solomon said. but, we do not have such knowledge and cannot judge internal thoughts and motives. because that is where sin lives . out of the heart comes wickedness, as Jesus said.
If you believe in OSAS, please answer a few questions for me.
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The fact that we are even able to discuss these things is in itself a gift from Him, every breath we take is because he sustains us, he paid an infinite price for our salvation, so the question is why do we not behave as the children of the most high? answer: because we must overcome our own tendencies toward sin and rebellion, and we cannot do this on our own, only in Him are ALL things possible, without Him we can do nothing, for me it is better to speak life, because when others spoke life to me, it encouraged me all the more to respond when the Father drew me to Him (John 6:44)and when I experienced even the small measure of His Love, (because that's all I can handle) for it is infinite, all these arguments over OSAS or whatever fade into nothingness, this unbelievable gift we have, (if we be in Him) is life, and peace, so please, we all should return to our first love daily and be ever mindful of our place in the kingdom and why we even have it.
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This is backwards. Most Christians are trying to overcome their sins and rebellion. And Have no Grace and knowledge, because they are consumed with cleaning up their life.
Morality and overcoming sin, does NOT grow the believer in Grace and knowledge.
Growing in Grace and knowledge will result in morality and overcoming sin.
This is why we see heated debates. Some are moral and need recognition for it, Some are moral because they understand grace.
There is not ONE poster here that is "eat drink and be merry" because I have Grace.
We have 2 moralities on these forums. One needs it for salvation. One has it because of salvation.
Morality and overcoming sin, does NOT grow the believer in Grace and knowledge.
Growing in Grace and knowledge will result in morality and overcoming sin.
This is why we see heated debates. Some are moral and need recognition for it, Some are moral because they understand grace.
There is not ONE poster here that is "eat drink and be merry" because I have Grace.
We have 2 moralities on these forums. One needs it for salvation. One has it because of salvation.
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Those two sentences that I made bold are a revelation that would change the Body Of Christ if they could ever receive it. How to properly minister that revelation is something I've been attempting for a couple of years.
This is exactly what Romans chapter 8 is saying. Look particularly at verse 6,:For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Our sin consciousness interprets this verse to say that to be sin minded is death, or to be filled with sin is death. What it's really saying is that to be focused on the flesh is death, or I could say to be focused on trying to perfect the flesh is death. Now read the whole chapter with Gr8grace's quote and my comments in mind and see a new revelation about Romans 8. Paul is telling us how to overcome the flesh by putting all our focus and attention on the Spirit rather than on our flesh.
This is exactly what Romans chapter 8 is saying. Look particularly at verse 6,:For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Our sin consciousness interprets this verse to say that to be sin minded is death, or to be filled with sin is death. What it's really saying is that to be focused on the flesh is death, or I could say to be focused on trying to perfect the flesh is death. Now read the whole chapter with Gr8grace's quote and my comments in mind and see a new revelation about Romans 8. Paul is telling us how to overcome the flesh by putting all our focus and attention on the Spirit rather than on our flesh.
I myself believe in salvation, that once you are saved, why yes you are saved.
Salvation is genuine, not just a chance at getting to Heaven.
Once born again, you have been born again -- you cannot undo a birth.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall (no ifs ands or buts) save His children from their sins.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.
Salvation is genuine, not just a chance at getting to Heaven.
Once born again, you have been born again -- you cannot undo a birth.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall (no ifs ands or buts) save His children from their sins.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.
Wrong approach. If you want to know about salvation, read through your Bible (as I have) and mark every passage on the subject with a highlighter. Then go through it & see what is says.
The problem with those who deny "eternal security," is that they don't believe in salvation at all, but in a chance at it. Such persons do not even mean "salvation" when they say salvation.
Mostly, I think, they have focused on who gets to go to Heaven, instead of how do you get a
transformation, a new birth, a change from sinner to child of God.
So forget your questions. If you have a case to make, you do your work, you quote your scripture, make your interpretation, prove your claims. They we can look at your theories and ask you to
prove them where you fail.
It is a basic red herring to ask, "Well what about this, Well what about that?" Focus on verses that address the topic of salvation.
The problem with those who deny "eternal security," is that they don't believe in salvation at all, but in a chance at it. Such persons do not even mean "salvation" when they say salvation.
Mostly, I think, they have focused on who gets to go to Heaven, instead of how do you get a
transformation, a new birth, a change from sinner to child of God.
So forget your questions. If you have a case to make, you do your work, you quote your scripture, make your interpretation, prove your claims. They we can look at your theories and ask you to
prove them where you fail.
It is a basic red herring to ask, "Well what about this, Well what about that?" Focus on verses that address the topic of salvation.
And I agree...Whatsoever<---this word means what ever it is....Whatsoever God does it is ETERNAL...nothing ADDED<--works for salvation to keep, get or maintain...NOTHING taken AWAY<----The all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus and his blood applied and righteousness applied dia faith....and he does this that men may fear before him....If God saves a person dia faith it is ETERNAL!
Ecclesiastes 3:14....verse is highlighted above
Ecclesiastes 3:14....verse is highlighted above
P
Without arguing your whole "point", I will say that is the most ridiculous and asinine statement I have heard since obama's last news conference.
How many places in the bible would you like for me to point out where killing someone negates their birth?
Everyone that is born will die. But according to you we all have eternal life without Christ, simply because we were born, and hey, you can't undo that, now can you?. So tell me, what in the world do we even need Him for?
Incredible.
How many places in the bible would you like for me to point out where killing someone negates their birth?
Everyone that is born will die. But according to you we all have eternal life without Christ, simply because we were born, and hey, you can't undo that, now can you?. So tell me, what in the world do we even need Him for?
Incredible.
What was the problem with the Pharisees? Well, in once instance Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like judgment, faith, and mercy. So we know they were sinful. Over the past 4 years in talking with OSAS Proponents both online and in person, I have discovered two major things appearing over and over.
#1. On some level sin is condoned.
Even in the most lighest form of OSAS that appears to be holy allows for it in the fact that they you cannot stop sinning (Which means it is making an excuse to sin sometimes in the future). But nowhere does the Bible ever teach this. Others have told me both online and in person that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and be saved while doing so. Many OSAS Proponents are double minded. When I talk to them they say they do not condone sin. Then at another time, they say they commit many sins and are saved by God's grace (Despite repenting of those sins) (They believe they are just automatically forgiven).
#2. Personal attacks.
Another thing I notice as a pattern by most (Not all) OSAS proponents is that they make it their mission to bring a personal inquistion against you. They seek to make it personal and try to find chinks in your armor. Instead of talking about the topic Biblical it becomes a burning at the stake (in a verbal sense). Folks prefer to be on an Anti-OSAS witch hunt then be respectul, loving, and professional in representing Christ. It is almost unheard of when I can discuss OSAS and not have them call me names, put me down, and make fun of me, etc.
But your still probably wondering who? Who are the Pharisees here?
Anyone who condones a sin and still be saved doctrine.
Do I need to name them? No. People have already admitted that they can sin and still be saved here. People have already admitted that you can die in unrepenant sin and still be saved. People have already admitted that you can be out of fellowship and still be saved.
I do not set out to attack people personally.
The OSAS Proponent might do something like that.
But that is not what I would call a loving thing to do.
#1. On some level sin is condoned.
Even in the most lighest form of OSAS that appears to be holy allows for it in the fact that they you cannot stop sinning (Which means it is making an excuse to sin sometimes in the future). But nowhere does the Bible ever teach this. Others have told me both online and in person that they could mow down a crowd of people with a machine gun and be saved while doing so. Many OSAS Proponents are double minded. When I talk to them they say they do not condone sin. Then at another time, they say they commit many sins and are saved by God's grace (Despite repenting of those sins) (They believe they are just automatically forgiven).
#2. Personal attacks.
Another thing I notice as a pattern by most (Not all) OSAS proponents is that they make it their mission to bring a personal inquistion against you. They seek to make it personal and try to find chinks in your armor. Instead of talking about the topic Biblical it becomes a burning at the stake (in a verbal sense). Folks prefer to be on an Anti-OSAS witch hunt then be respectul, loving, and professional in representing Christ. It is almost unheard of when I can discuss OSAS and not have them call me names, put me down, and make fun of me, etc.
But your still probably wondering who? Who are the Pharisees here?
Anyone who condones a sin and still be saved doctrine.
Do I need to name them? No. People have already admitted that they can sin and still be saved here. People have already admitted that you can die in unrepenant sin and still be saved. People have already admitted that you can be out of fellowship and still be saved.
I do not set out to attack people personally.
The OSAS Proponent might do something like that.
But that is not what I would call a loving thing to do.
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Also, another point to consider in regards to the Pharisees: Not only did Jesus expose their sin, but what other wrong thing did the Pharisees do? They wrongfully accused Jesus. They set out to personally attack Him and they did not reason over the Scriptures in a kind and respectful way. This is indeed similar to what many OSAS proponents do today. They attack the believer personally instead of attacking the doctrine or false belief. The Pharisees got really angry at Jesus for his words. Yet, I am not angered by people's words here but I am grieved by them. Yet others here appear to get very angry and act childish. It's something folks should think about it. Does one's life line more up with a Pharisee or does it line more up with acting like Christ?
If one has Christ living in them, shouldn't the fruit of the LORD be evident in your life? (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).
If one has Christ living in them, shouldn't the fruit of the LORD be evident in your life? (See 2 Corinthians 13:5).
i think what he's getting at is 'once you're a son or daughter, can you cease to become a son or daughter?'
your objection then is 'yes, you can die' -- and we can point to the prodigal son parable, where the father says his son was dead, and is alive once again when he returned.
but here, the son didn't cease to be a son of the father when he was figuratively 'dead' -- and then i'm also reminded of what Jesus said about resurrection -
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.
(Luke 20:38)
and how He said Lazarus was 'only sleeping' but because the disciples didn't understand Him, He finally told them 'he is dead' - speaking in human terms(Luke 20:38)
if God has brought us out of death into life, and we believe He will even raise our bodies up again, don't we believe that if we stumble in sin that He is able to bear us up and bring us back into life and light?
that seems to me to be what i need Him for, and what He's been faithful to me to do.
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(1 Corinthians 1:8-9)
God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
(1 Corinthians 1:8-9)
i believe this ↑
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this looked so much bigger on my phone...I thought I would have to break it down...but not so bad, so here goes:
JASON!! I know who the Pharisees were. that was not the question...allo? Seems the main gripe Jesus had with the Pharisees was their hypocrisy...he also called them fools, vipers (poisonous snake), open mouthed graves, white washed tombs, blind guides and He never hesitated to address them as such.
FYI: I do not refer to myself as OSAS...in fact, the church I attended for the formative years of my life and in which I was saved, never used that expression either. I am well aware of what scripture says concerning sin and I have a distaste for people who refer to themselves as Christians and live like the world...they give sincere believers a bad name IMO...besides, I just don't like wishy washy
If someone tells you they could mow down a crowd with a machine gun while claiming to be a follower of the Son of God, well, do you actually believe you are speaking with believers? Come on now....that's just silly!! I put spiders outside because I respect the life God created...Jesus died for human beings so obviously mowing them down is comparable to ISIS not biblical Christianity
See, the problem people are having with your posts. is your insistence that you have stopped sinning...at least that seems to be what you are saying? The Bible does not record any instance of a human being who has achieved godhood which is what a person would have to achieve in order to be sinless and be able to point out sin in everyone else
The other problem, is that God does not go around condeming humanity...He has already done that! The 10 commandments were never given for humanity to keep in order to become perfect...we can only be perfect in Christ Who is the fullfillment of all that God requires in order for us to come into His presence.
I don't know of any particular group that is more double minded than another. If a person is so focused in on one thing...such as arguing against OSAS, they are missing the bigger picture. Frankly, I don't even like the expression OSAS, because it sounds trite and does not give justice to the actual life of a believer and one who follows Christ.
However, we are not lost and saved over and over again...that is not how it works.
You are wrong, simply and black and white wrong, when you state that sin is condoned by a believer...how would the Holy Spirit even allow for such a thing? It is not YOUR job to be the Holy Spirit. What people resent here, is your attitude; we have tried so many many times to get across to you the fact that we don't sin on purpose over and over and if someone does, they may be in a struggle to be set free that you know nothing of!
You seem to refuse to accept that fact, and that is what irks people here no end.
Jason if you really believe that you no longer sin, or that you cannot believe with all your heart, mind and soul that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, and yet still sin, then you have a very limited life experience and you have been sheltered. I don't have sympathy for sin...however, I certainly do have empathy for those who sin, as I too live in this body made of flesh and have not yet seen Jesus face to face.
So it seems, if I understand what you are saying here, that you are calling those who believe Christians can still sin, Pharisees. Yes or no?
As far as personal attacks go, you have accused me of attacking you more than once when in reality all I did was offer scripture that throws your theory of sinless living out the window.
Then, I am sorry to say but I am a pretty black and white person and make the mistake of thinking others are that way also, you whine about it.
Well, you know, that street goes both ways. Ever consider that?
JASON!! I know who the Pharisees were. that was not the question...allo? Seems the main gripe Jesus had with the Pharisees was their hypocrisy...he also called them fools, vipers (poisonous snake), open mouthed graves, white washed tombs, blind guides and He never hesitated to address them as such.
FYI: I do not refer to myself as OSAS...in fact, the church I attended for the formative years of my life and in which I was saved, never used that expression either. I am well aware of what scripture says concerning sin and I have a distaste for people who refer to themselves as Christians and live like the world...they give sincere believers a bad name IMO...besides, I just don't like wishy washy
If someone tells you they could mow down a crowd with a machine gun while claiming to be a follower of the Son of God, well, do you actually believe you are speaking with believers? Come on now....that's just silly!! I put spiders outside because I respect the life God created...Jesus died for human beings so obviously mowing them down is comparable to ISIS not biblical Christianity
See, the problem people are having with your posts. is your insistence that you have stopped sinning...at least that seems to be what you are saying? The Bible does not record any instance of a human being who has achieved godhood which is what a person would have to achieve in order to be sinless and be able to point out sin in everyone else
The other problem, is that God does not go around condeming humanity...He has already done that! The 10 commandments were never given for humanity to keep in order to become perfect...we can only be perfect in Christ Who is the fullfillment of all that God requires in order for us to come into His presence.
I don't know of any particular group that is more double minded than another. If a person is so focused in on one thing...such as arguing against OSAS, they are missing the bigger picture. Frankly, I don't even like the expression OSAS, because it sounds trite and does not give justice to the actual life of a believer and one who follows Christ.
However, we are not lost and saved over and over again...that is not how it works.
You are wrong, simply and black and white wrong, when you state that sin is condoned by a believer...how would the Holy Spirit even allow for such a thing? It is not YOUR job to be the Holy Spirit. What people resent here, is your attitude; we have tried so many many times to get across to you the fact that we don't sin on purpose over and over and if someone does, they may be in a struggle to be set free that you know nothing of!
You seem to refuse to accept that fact, and that is what irks people here no end.
Jason if you really believe that you no longer sin, or that you cannot believe with all your heart, mind and soul that Jesus died for the sins of mankind, and yet still sin, then you have a very limited life experience and you have been sheltered. I don't have sympathy for sin...however, I certainly do have empathy for those who sin, as I too live in this body made of flesh and have not yet seen Jesus face to face.
So it seems, if I understand what you are saying here, that you are calling those who believe Christians can still sin, Pharisees. Yes or no?
As far as personal attacks go, you have accused me of attacking you more than once when in reality all I did was offer scripture that throws your theory of sinless living out the window.
Then, I am sorry to say but I am a pretty black and white person and make the mistake of thinking others are that way also, you whine about it.
Well, you know, that street goes both ways. Ever consider that?