How should I understand faith

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J

Jack_

Guest
#1
1st question; What is the logical way of describing why we can have faith in the christian god? by logical I mean an answer fashioned like this "If you live accordingly to what the bible says and do what the bible says, then God will reveal himself to you in a way(perhaps through bending the laws of nature or using other christians(in whatever way) to effect you so that you know it is him and because of that you become more faithful"
The logical fashion of describing the christian faith is important seeing as people don't think christianity is logical and surely if its true, its logical.
2nd question; was the example statement in the parenthesis a correct way of putting?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#2
How about supra-logical?

He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" Then Jesus told him, "How blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, since flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, though my Father in heaven has. (Mat 16:15-17)

i.e. there is a logic above man's reason that is not illogical but which human logic on it's own cannot attain.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#3
1st question; What is the logical way of describing why we can have faith in the christian god? by logical I mean an answer fashioned like this "If you live accordingly to what the bible says and do what the bible says, then God will reveal himself to you in a way(perhaps through bending the laws of nature or using other christians(in whatever way) to effect you so that you know it is him and because of that you become more faithful"
The logical fashion of describing the christian faith is important seeing as people don't think christianity is logical and surely if its true, its logical.
2nd question; was the example statement in the parenthesis a correct way of putting?
God changes people to the good.

Why doesn't that work? It is logical and verifiable.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#4
*
Matthew 8:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 8
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” 26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. 27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
*
Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
*
Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21 She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 9
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.
*
Matthew 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and arena’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
*
Matthew 14
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
*
Matthew 15
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 17
14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why could’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
*
Matthew 21
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
*

This is all you need to know about faith. It is faith that brings all the other things into fruition.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
697
50
28
#5
To post #4, the entire chapter of Hebrews 11 can be added.
 
J

Jack_

Guest
#6
How about supra-logical?

He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" Then Jesus told him, "How blessed you are, Simon son of Jonah, since flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, though my Father in heaven has. (Mat 16:15-17)

i.e. there is a logic above man's reason that is not illogical but which human logic on it's own cannot attain.
Thanks for them verses I think they are highly relevant. But so in simple terms, which I am asking for, is that verse either verifying or just another way of saying what I said in the parenthesis?
I'll try ask in another way
What can we say to someone who is perhaps agnostic but is wondering what we have to validate possessing a faith for the christian God of the bible, as opposed to another God that is right about the nature of man and perhaps has some half weighty archeological or historical evidence.
Someone say who in heart is genuinely open for the christian god but in mind is trying to put it together.(not talking about evidential reason, i'm talking about logical reason)

I understand christianity is not a blind faith, we have collective reason to hold to the faith and that comes from external evidence and What? What makes it valid for someone in a third world country who can't access information, how do they pass the line of blind faith to reasonable faith in the bible God? I feel like the answer is simple to my question I'm just having trouble translating my mind at the moment.
 
J

Jack_

Guest
#7
*
Matthew 8:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 8
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” 26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. 27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
*
Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
*
Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21 She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 9
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.
*
Matthew 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and arena’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
*
Matthew 14
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
*
Matthew 15
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
*
Matthew 17
14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why could’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
*
Matthew 21
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
*

This is all you need to know about faith. It is faith that brings all the other things into fruition.
Thank you for the responses I think this is the conclusion I wanted verified, I just didn't want to go as far as making this my primary argument for christianity to other people without it being true. So would it be correct to say in simple terms, If you put faith into god accordingly to the bible he will become realer to you or perhaps reveal himself to you.
 
P

Powemm

Guest
#8
He himself unveils and reveals
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#9
Thanks for them verses I think they are highly relevant. But so in simple terms, which I am asking for, is that verse either verifying or just another way of saying what I said in the parenthesis?
I'll try ask in another way
What can we say to someone who is perhaps agnostic but is wondering what we have to validate possessing a faith for the christian God of the bible, as opposed to another God that is right about the nature of man and perhaps has some half weighty archeological or historical evidence.
Someone say who in heart is genuinely open for the christian god but in mind is trying to put it together.(not talking about evidential reason, i'm talking about logical reason)

I understand christianity is not a blind faith, we have collective reason to hold to the faith and that comes from external evidence and What? What makes it valid for someone in a third world country who can't access information, how do they pass the line of blind faith to reasonable faith in the bible God? I feel like the answer is simple to my question I'm just having trouble translating my mind at the moment.
We have scores of fulfilled prophesy especially out of the OT concerning Jesus Christ...His birth, life, death and resurrection.
We also have eyewitness accounts of His miracles and bodily resurrection.
 
T

TWAN

Guest
#10
Immortality is elementary. We all have it.

PS: I wouldn´t use double parenthesis.
 
T

TWAN

Guest
#12
Look around. Compare faces.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#14
Satan is great at confusing people.

I think you have similar qualities.
Ack! I liked what you said, but I don't necessarily agree. This guy isn't confusing. He simply makes no sense.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#15
Thank you for the responses I think this is the conclusion I wanted verified, I just didn't want to go as far as making this my primary argument for christianity to other people without it being true. So would it be correct to say in simple terms, If you put faith into god accordingly to the bible he will become realer to you or perhaps reveal himself to you.
Not really. That takes it back to blind faith. Why in the world would you put your faith in something you don't think is real to begin with? Try this argument with Puff the Magic Dragon. " If you put faith into Puff accordingly to the song he will become realer to you or perhaps reveal himself to you."

Would you buy that?

I know you're trying for logic, but it's not your strong suit. That's okay. It doesn't have to be. Faith is God's strong suit. (He gives it out in spades. lol) "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Jesus." Rom. 10:17

You don't logic out God. I mean, sure, he's completely logical, and sure, we come to understand his logic when we start understanding him, but he's not the logic of this world. His words work simply because he is behind his words.

Isn't that enough? Go outside God and you miss God.

How's that for logic? :D
 
Sep 6, 2014
7,034
5,435
113
#16
Hebrews 11:1-3
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

2 Corinthians 4:13-18
13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
#17
1st question; What is the logical way of describing why we can have faith in the christian god?
Faith is not some mystical attribute which somehow we have to seek for. Faith is response to what is evidenced and what has been revealed. Saving faith is response to the revelation of Jesus Christ by one who has recognised Him as Saviiour and Lord from the heart. Sensible faith can only be based on evidence, although that evidence may be the consequence of a Christian experience. We believe because truth has broken in upon us. That is why faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

by logical I mean an answer fashioned like this "If you live accordingly to what the bible says and do what the bible says, then God will reveal himself to you in a way(perhaps through bending the laws of nature or using other christians(in whatever way) to effect you so that you know it is him and because of that you become more faithful"
Paul was neither doing what the Bible says nor living according to the Bible when God broke in on him. We do not earn God's revelation. It comes to us at His choosing, although if we read thoughtfully the word of God that is a means by which He can do so.God is not in the habit of 'breaking the laws of nature' on our behalf, although He may sometimes do so. In most cases we come to know Him through His word read or preached because God takes His word and makes it clear in our hearts. Thus we believe.

The logical fashion of describing the christian faith is important seeing as people don't think christianity is logical and surely if its true, its logical.
The Christian faith is wholly logical. But our problem is that we often do not have enough facts on which to base our conclusion. Thus God reveals Himself through revelation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#18
Not really. That takes it back to blind faith. Why in the world would you put your faith in something you don't think is real to begin with? Try this argument with Puff the Magic Dragon. " If you put faith into Puff accordingly to the song he will become realer to you or perhaps reveal himself to you."

Would you buy that?

I know you're trying for logic, but it's not your strong suit. That's okay. It doesn't have to be. Faith is God's strong suit. (He gives it out in spades. lol) "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Jesus." Rom. 10:17

You don't logic out God. I mean, sure, he's completely logical, and sure, we come to understand his logic when we start understanding him, but he's not the logic of this world. His words work simply because he is behind his words.

Isn't that enough? Go outside God and you miss God.

How's that for logic? :D
That logic is raining on my parade :(

20120608-ezra-and-puff1.jpg
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#19
back in the day,,,,,once upon a time,,,,long, long ago,,

we once puffed the magic dragon in a land looooooog forgoooooten...

thank You, Jesus
:cool::rolleyes:
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#20
To hear with my heart, to see with my soul
To be guided by a hand I cannot hold
To trust in a way I cannot see
That's what faith must be.

Michael card