To comfort those who speak in tongues

[notuptome]

Would you speak to a member of your local congregation in this manner?

(If you do not see anything wrong with the text I have changed to red, I will gladly clarify.)

Not an issue. Good sound biblical discipleship corrects this issue before it becomes a problem.

Proverbs 19:25 ¶ Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

I have made note several times now, that those in the cessationist camp become hostile and verbally abusive.

I'm not the only one noticing this as observed by Peaceful Warrior

This is not a passing observance. I have seen this happening since I joined this forum and it is almost always the same people who LOOK for a way to demean and basically sneer at those who speak in tongues. I don't know their attitude regarding the other gifts, but if you sneer at tongues, I don't understand how you think God is going to bless you with any other gift as one and the same HOLY SPIRIT is responsible for dispensing EACH AND EVERY SINGLE one according to the will of God

Perhaps this may explain the dryness in some churches where the Holy Spirit has become an it rather than THE Helper sent by God to empower His children to both live and witness for Him

Perhaps this may explain the hostility of those who fancy themselves teachers because they love the praises of men and so fullfill their pride and ego with a cheering section ordained by others as spiritless as themselvs

You cannot separate the Spirit of God from the Bible and breath life into anyone. God gives life and that by His Spirit...and He does so in any and every language!

 

[ember]

In the end, this is the final argument of all "signs-and-wonders" advocates.

I always find it ironic that, when confronted with the original languages that God used to preserve His word and the "signs-and-wonders doctrines" are found wanting, they disparage the language as though it is "unimportant." Thus we see the bankruptcy of the teaching.

I think Willie-T put it very well when he wrote this:

Striving for the acquisition of knowledge as a means to achieving an appearance of righteousness is one of the largest sins of pride... and it is precisely what the Pharisees tried to do.

in another thread.

Without the Holy Spirit, you just have a pile of dead man's bones...you are not uplifiting anyone with your sarcasim and bullying

 

[notuptome]

I have made note several times now, that those in the cessationist camp become hostile and verbally abusive.

I'm not the only one noticing this as observed by Peaceful Warrior

This is not a passing observance. I have seen this happening since I joined this forum and it is almost always the same people who LOOK for a way to demean and basically sneer at those who speak in tongues. I don't know their attitude regarding the other gifts, but if you sneer at tongues, I don't understand how you think God is going to bless you with any other gift as one and the same HOLY SPIRIT is responsible for dispensing EACH AND EVERY SINGLE one according to the will of God

Perhaps this may explain the dryness in some churches where the Holy Spirit has become an it rather than THE Helper sent by God to empower His children to both live and witness for Him

Perhaps this may explain the hostility of those who fancy themselves teachers because they love the praises of men and so fullfill their pride and ego with a cheering section ordained by others as spiritless as themselvs

You cannot separate the Spirit of God from the Bible and breath life into anyone. God gives life and that by His Spirit...and He does so in any and every language!

Sneering is such a loathsome term for you to use.

Tell me when a surgeon cuts out a cancer is it unkind or necessary? The pain is it to be avoided and the patient perish or endured that the patient might have a high quality of life?

It may be blunt but when finesse fails then only bluntness remains. Souls are at stake and the enemy is crafty and sly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Not an issue. Good sound biblical discipleship corrects this issue before it becomes a problem.

Proverbs 19:25 ¶ Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, and he will understand knowledge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Except that she doesn't scorn Christ -- she scorns the attitudes of those who instead of stepping down off of their high-horses for a few, choose to remain above us laymen and bark out orders.

Smite the scorner, not the simple.

 

[ember]

Sneering is such a loathsome term for you to use.

Tell me when a surgeon cuts out a cancer is it unkind or necessary? The pain is it to be avoided and the patient perish or endured that the patient might have a high quality of life?

It may be blunt but when finesse fails then only bluntness remains. Souls are at stake and the enemy is crafty and sly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Souls are not at stake in this thread...your opinion may be, but souls are not

I don't imagine too many would care to join you in your armchair and throw darts at others

 

[ember]

What do you mean by this? You do realize what it looks like right?.........."your not saved"

Am I wrong?

She has never said that. Frankly, I do not see that in her post either.

I believe she means the unbelief of cessationists regarding tongues....

 

[Gr8grace]

I have made note several times now, that those in the cessationist camp become hostile and verbally abusive.

I'm not the only one noticing this as observed by Peaceful Warrior

This is not a passing observance. I have seen this happening since I joined this forum and it is almost always the same people who LOOK for a way to demean and basically sneer at those who speak in tongues. I don't know their attitude regarding the other gifts, but if you sneer at tongues, I don't understand how you think God is going to bless you with any other gift as one and the same HOLY SPIRIT is responsible for dispensing EACH AND EVERY SINGLE one according to the will of God

Perhaps this may explain the dryness in some churches where the Holy Spirit has become an it rather than THE Helper sent by God to empower His children to both live and witness for Him

Perhaps this may explain the hostility of those who fancy themselves teachers because they love the praises of men and so fullfill their pride and ego with a cheering section ordained by others as spiritless as themselvs

You cannot separate the Spirit of God from the Bible and breath life into anyone. God gives life and that by His Spirit...and He does so in any and every language!

I Agree In some cases.

But from my perspective, the tongues people get a pass with passive aggressiveness.

~~~ I have yet to see someone who doesn't believe in tongues, imply or state that tongues believers are unsaved.~~~~

If it isn't implied or stated that we are unsaved, we get this.............

1. God probably won't bless you.
2.your Christian walk is "dry"
3.you can't really live or witness for Him.
4.you are hostile.
5.you love the praises of men.
6.you are fulfilling your pride and ego.
7.you want a cheering section.
8. you are spiritless.
9 you have separated the Spirit from the bible.
10. you are basically impotent.

This is just from your post. I know its not exactly what you wrote. But it is how I take it.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Why why why go and complicate things when we were finally understanding a few simple truths together? If you are going to go running off to the Greek to prove a point that is by no means straightforward to you in the text, no wonder you will get in a muddle.

You can't teach what you do not know by the Holy Spirit, so the Greek is not going to give you assistance if all you are doing is trying to make your own understanding plain.

An understanding of the different usages of another seemed relevant to me. If it is not to you . . . then it's no big deal. I meant no harm.

One or two things, you just repeated what I said and capitalised it as though you were arguing with me, like this:
...when I said this already: "And it is the same with us. We have been gifted with something if we are born again, because the word says that God divides these things severally to every man as He will (verse 11). When he says every man, obviously that doesn't mean any old Tom Dick or Harry...but those who are born again of the Spirit of God."

I apologize for not reading thoroughly - but only saw "that doesn't mean any old Tom, Dick or Harry.

And then you said this:

....when I had already said this:

"So if we are born again, we can trust God that He has gifted us with one or more of those things listed and it is up to us to explore with humility what those gifts might be."

You just seem to want to make an argument out of nothing!

I meant nothing as an argument . . . just a clearer understanding. Even at the end of my post, I said: To a degree yes we are on the same page . . .

However I stand by my original disagreement with you, and I stand by the trusted King James translation, that Paul here is referring a) to the nine gifts, b) to the administration of those gifts, and c) to the operation of those gifts...rather than all things being a manifestation of one gift, the Holy Spirit.

Okay . . . your just not taking in the meaning of the contraction "but" which starts off v7 . . . That contraction is used to set in contrast . . . we learn that in any English class in school.

I have said before on this thread, it is not good to speak of the Holy Spirit as a common noun: a gift in the sense of someTHING given. He is a He, and He is the Spirit of God. So He is given as a personal Comforter and Empowerer when we are born again, and when He is given, (and only then) it is He who gives us GIFTS (common noun) as in the scripture I posted, of which there are nine listed, and elsewhere nine fruits, very well documented and not up for disputation.

So sad, I thought we were getting somewhere.

The holy spirit is also a gift - Acts 2:38, 11:17. Elsewhere there is the "fruit" of the Spirit which manifest itself in nine characteristics: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance [Gal. 5:22]. . . . just as the manifestation of the Spirit is shown in nine manifestations [1 Cor. 12:7].

You know . . . I never meant anything I said as an argument just further elaboration on the discussion and in agreement with what you had posted. I am having trouble understanding the anger that seems to be coming from you. Anyway, I apologize if I angered you in some way . . . . .

 

[Gr8grace]

She has never said that. Frankly, I do not see that in her post either.

I believe she means the unbelief of cessationists regarding tongues....

I am not disguising my unbelief of the tongues movement of today.

What unbelief am I disguising?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I am not surprised any more at the lengths people will go to in order to disguise their unbelief!

The point is,
if Greek is not your first language you will need to depend on man's interpretation and/or translation in order to figure out what is being said, and also the cultural nuances of the time etc.... and thus what the scriptures mean....and if you are learning it yourself there is a large margin for error.

I am not trying to learn Greek but I do look up definitions of words for they were translated from Greek for better understanding of the scriptures. . . . just as I look up English words for better understanding of their meanings.

Why not instead depend on the Holy Spirit to guide you into the truth of the Word? If you are born again you have no need to go language shopping anywhere. The English is right in front of you in the scholarly and scrupulously translated versions we have access to today, and if you are born again, the Holy Spirit will teach you what these things all mean that you read in there. I will say again, you cannot teach what does not come by the Holy Spirit. If you teach something the Holy Spirit didn't give you, it is just the religious flesh, and will help no one. <snip>

How do you know that the Holy Spirit didn't guide me in my studying?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Classic example of nonsense. Here you are a person who claims tongues are active going about to disparage another tongue. Greek is a tongue other than your native tongue.

Simply a case of your golden calf moaning because it's toes were stepped on by the truth.

Seems I can hear the Apostle Paul right now saying that this is why he told the church not to allow a woman to teach or have authority over men. Simply carried away with every wind of doctrine. Sorry ladies but there are some who are of the spirit of Jezebel. Guess that's why Proverbs is so strong in its praise for the virtuous woman.

There is no nobility in any belief no matter how ardently held if it contradicts Gods word. The spirit of Babylon is active in the church today. Nimrods spirit is leading multitudes away from God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

... up in here?

And somebody, please, rep Roger for me. System says "spread it around" first.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I am not disguising my unbelief of the tongues movement of today.

What unbelief am I disguising?

This was in regards to not your post, but Conv's. http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rt-those-who-speak-tongues-9.html#post2245719 (She was addressing VW)

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

... up in here?

And somebody, please, rep Roger for me. System says "spread it around" first.

Amen.

I perhaps owe you and Roger an apology -- I went back to the OP and re-read.

I found that you both were initially gentle with your words and only became more blunt as time went on.

My bad. Thanks guys.

 

[Gr8grace]

This was in regards to not your post, but Conv's. http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rt-those-who-speak-tongues-9.html#post2245719 (She was addressing VW)

I know that. but VW and I are on the same page on this one, and most other subjects as well.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I know that. but VW and I are on the same page on this one, and most other subjects as well.

I don't know exactly what she means either -- it seems like a flawed statement to me.

I am not surprised any more at the lengths people will go to in order to disguise their unbelief!

However, I think it has something to do with this:

Person A is trapped on an island in solitude for their entire life and their only possession is a Bible.
Person B is a scholar who went to seminary and continues to learn Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.

Which person will have a better understanding of God's Word?

Then there's this element of the Holy Spirit; it seems she values her (perceived) promptings from the H.S. more so than she values the knowledge learned from decades (centuries?) of study. Basically mysticism versus knowledge. Or intuition versus ordinary understanding.

 

[ember]

I Agree In some cases.

But from my perspective, the tongues people get a pass with passive aggressiveness.

~~~ I have yet to see someone who doesn't believe in tongues, imply or state that tongues believers are unsaved.~~~~

If it isn't implied or stated that we are unsaved, we get this.............

1. God probably won't bless you.
2.your Christian walk is "dry"
3.you can't really live or witness for Him.
4.you are hostile.
5.you love the praises of men.
6.you are fulfilling your pride and ego.
7.you want a cheering section.
8. you are spiritless.
9 you have separated the Spirit from the bible.
10. you are basically impotent.

This is just from your post. I know its not exactly what you wrote. But it is how I take it.

right...and that is the best excuse to offer God when He asks you why you just stood on the sidelines and criticized

Let's have a look at that list


1. God probably won't bless you. why? are you living in sin?

2.your Christian walk is "dry" that could be true actually

3.you can't really live or witness for Him. that is not true either as we already have the Holy Spirit when we become believers

4.you are hostile. the cessationists responding in this thread are sometimes abusive, never mind hostile and not only that, at least one of them, tries to make it seem it is the one they are responding to...they think that by pretending to be nice their bite might be less but we have teeth marks

5.you love the praises of men. well do you? some certainly do...the Bible even says so! but to be fair, so do many exhibitionists in the other camp...I don't agree with them either!

6.you are fulfilling your pride and ego. not everyone...just the ones who brag they know more than anyone else

7.you want a cheering section. well it does help, don't you think?

8. you are spiritless. oh you're making that one up..never seen that one...besides the Bible says otherwise

9 you have separated the Spirit from the bible. uh....no one can do that...please check your wording...I think you have it wrong

10. you are basically impotent. see a doctor...they may be able to help

 

[ember]

I am not disguising my unbelief of the tongues movement of today.

What unbelief am I disguising?

disguising? say what?

at any rate, no use in trying to respond for someone else

 

[ember]

Amen.

I perhaps owe you and Roger an apology -- I went back to the OP and re-read.

I found that you both were initially gentle with your words and only became more blunt as time went on.

My bad. Thanks guys.

I don't find this first post of VW gentle:

No, actually, we know for certain that by the time Paul wrote to Timothy, the signs-and-wonders gifts were dying out, because they were no longer necessary for the confirmation of the Gospel for which they were originally give.

• Paul had already warned the Corinthian church, years before this epistle, not to practice tongues in the exact same way today's "signs-and-wonders" churches practice them!
  
• Healing was disappearing, as Paul left Trophimus ill in Miletus rather than being able to heal him
• Prophecy, which was the word of God, was dying out because the word of God for the church was being written by the apostles

So you see, your declaration is in error, as these gifts were no long necessary by the end of the first century, and they serve no purpose today except the self-glorifcation of those who practice them, which is sin.

he appears to consider himself the last word in something he does not even believe in

and then ends by stating they serve no purpose today except for self-glorification of those who practice them and then the piece de resistance,he concludes we are sinners

as I already stated at the beginning, he appears in every thread on tongues and basically does the same

it's like someone putting a smiley face on the end of a nasty comment...what are you going to believe...the comment or the smiley?

at any rate, since when does the Bible say that if someone digs at you, you should dig back?

sorry, no one here is smelling like a rose, but the mocking and disguised contempt is something I am really up to here with

we have the same sort of dialogue in the threads with the salvation with works crowd...it starts with discussion and ends with mocking by those who are OSAS

lovely

 

[notuptome]

Souls are not at stake in this thread...your opinion may be, but souls are not

I don't imagine too many would care to join you in your armchair and throw darts at others

You either don't know or you don't care.

Tongues are for a sign to unsaved Jews. What do you suppose unsaved Gentiles think? Scripture says they will think everybody is crazy. In todays modern tongues church that is not far from the truth.

Souls are always at stake. Do not scatter the flock.

For the cause of Christ
Roger