Muddy Waters? (No, not the Blues Guy)

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Dec 12, 2013
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#21
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
1. No, I believe they are still possessing people and are probably more concerned with the movers and shakers of society so as to mold man and lead humanity astray.

2. As noted above...I primarily believe they are influencing and possessing those who have the ability to lead many astray and or possibly very evil bloody men like mass murderers, serial killers, some in mental institutions etc...

3. Possibly....

4. I didn't realize the GIFTS were necessarily tied fully to the ability to cast out a demon or evil spirit...it would seem that anyone faithful and right before God could possibly by prayer, the word and faith be able to do this.....

However....makes me think of the one incident...Paul I know and Jesus I know, but who are you?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,205
1,109
113
New Zealand
#22
(Act 19:13) Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.


(Act 19:14) And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.


(Act 19:15) And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?


(Act 19:16) And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Doesn't look like these guys had any authority to be trying to cast out demons.. counterfeiting what Paul was trying to do.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#23
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
1...no
2...mainly in false teachers and conspiracy theorists and surprisingly in some 'deliverance ministers'
3...it is probably more commonly the other way around
4...i am sure that discernment is still an operating gift and exorcism was never a specific gift in the first place
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#24
1...no
2...mainly in false teachers and conspiracy theorists and surprisingly in some 'deliverance ministers'
3...it is probably more commonly the other way around
4...i am sure that discernment is still an operating gift and exorcism was never a specific gift in the first place
Can you elaborate a bit on #3?

Q3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
A3...it is probably more commonly the other way around

Are you saying 'it is likely many of those we medicate for demon possession, may be actually schizophrenic etc.' ?
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#25
I was only using schizophrenia as an example of many psychological disorders.
1800s? I just see a number of cases that I would suspect as demon possession get immediately diagnosed as some sort of psychological/medical problem that it leaves me thinking that the demons must have gone on vacation...unless they disguise their possession as a physical malfunction since that is as far as the medical field can go.
I am of the opinion that while we do still see very "base" forms of behavior... I am more inclined to lean toward MANY more subtle forms of demonic activity... consider "normal" by onlookers... what better way to hide and permeate and pollute others than to masquerade as the new "normal". Rev. says in the latter days there will be "pharmacopeia" abounding... and well... lookie lookie :(
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#26
>>>>The psychologist said in these cases he is sometimes convinced evil forces are at work.<<<<

SOMETIMES???? um, every human being who is not born again is serving the devil. Now I think that is not the same as POSSESSION but still, the word says... whom we are serving if not in Christ. Now I s'pose I just flung open the door to discuss "strongholds"... err... carry on
 
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R

robinriley

Guest
#27
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).

(Robin)
I'm curious ... what prompted your questions?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#29
Perhaps if the prayer method (euphemism alert) was used first we would (in some cases )have less medicated people living the rest of their lives dependent on prescriptions?
When I woke up from my gall bladder operation my back hurt far worse than the expected pain of surgical cuts and a small missing organ. The surgeon was baffled. By the next day the pain traveled to the front (from the waist to where the bottom of a bra hits the lower ribs.) Four months of agonizing pain while I convinced doctors I wasn't just recovering from the operation. (Looking back, they should have caught on quicker, since the actual pain from the operation was a mere twinge a week later.) They tested me, thinking it was a digestive issue. Have you ever drank an barium milkshake before an upper GI. Mint flavored awful isn't any better than unflavored awful. Having the same stuff shoved up your wazoo for a lower GI is a little worse. I react badly to the dye contrast used in a CT scan. Add to that, the nurse and then the doctor had trouble putting the contrast in that vein in my arm. I was stabbed 17 times. (I counted.) My arm was bruised from halfway up the upper arm to close to the wrist. You know that tube with the camera they use for a colonoscopy? Well, I got that one. And then 6 other times I got the same thing shoved down my throat. After several months of this, I got tired of wating so long for the test and then waiting even longer for the doctor to tell me the test was negative, that I begged him to do it all in one day. They did. They put me in the hospital the night before, and shoved a wire a camera at the end through my nose, down my throat, through the stomach out into the beginning of the intestine and up the common duct to where my ex-gall bladder used to be. And then they taped it to my nose and told me to live like that for a day. Got to say, if I wiggled my nose I sneezed. Try not wiggling your nose, even when you sleep. I think back with all I endured to get better and realized most knew all along what went wrong with my gall bladder (they twisted my back pulling me off the table and pinched a nerve. No one could figure out the problem until 15 years later. The statue of limitation for malpractice is 3 years, but they could have done something to unpinch it early. Same doctor who told me she had no idea of the cause at the very beginning forgot who I was the next time I went to her 15 years later, yet when I described my pain, she instantly figured out what the 19 out of the 20 tests I took wouldn't tell me.)

Got to say. I have absolutely no idea what tests they run to see if someone has a mental disability, but if praying over them before testing them was done, I bet a good 10% of them would never need to find out either. And they wouldn't be stuck on medication that causes other behavioral and physical problems too. I did try prayer first. Not only easier, but quicker, if it worked. Better yet, I can have my life back if it works.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#30
Yeah.. I mean, the best way would surely be to going to the scripture for guidance with the client straight away. No meds.. no need for any humanistic type teaching.

But I guess what I am saying is people go to the 'this person has a demon!' conclusion too quickly. When they may actually be a saved person.. and therefore not actually possibly having a demon in them at all.. or their mental struggles/illness could just be the result of a hard life and not spiritual oppression from evil.
Hubby's first wife was saved before her demons were removed. It's like anything else. You don't know you can be healed, unless you first find out God heals stuff doctors cannot.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#31
1. No, I believe they are still possessing people and are probably more concerned with the movers and shakers of society so as to mold man and lead humanity astray.

2. As noted above...I primarily believe they are influencing and possessing those who have the ability to lead many astray and or possibly very evil bloody men like mass murderers, serial killers, some in mental institutions etc...

3. Possibly....

4. I didn't realize the GIFTS were necessarily tied fully to the ability to cast out a demon or evil spirit...it would seem that anyone faithful and right before God could possibly by prayer, the word and faith be able to do this.....

However....makes me think of the one incident...Paul I know and Jesus I know, but who are you?
What makes you believe they go after the movers and shakers? Why wasn't that so back when Jesus was on earth? I don't know of many people who have had demons removed, but the ones I do know of were just regular people.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
#32
What makes you believe they go after the movers and shakers? Why wasn't that so back when Jesus was on earth? I don't know of many people who have had demons removed, but the ones I do know of were just regular people.
I did not say that they do not possess normal, every day (Joes)....My point is simple....influence the ones who have the most influence....Hell has raised UP all the CHIEF ones of the earth...Satan attempted to influence the most power mover and shaker the planet has ever seen....Jesus...It is obvious by Herod's action that he was led of the devil as he murdered all children under two...Look at the people like HITLER, Mussolini, Stalin, Saddam, Muhammad etc. though out all the ages who were obviously led by Satan and influenced by evil and their fallen nature doing the works of their father the devil....and leading the masses astray and into ruin and oblivion....worshipped as gods....I am just saying that Satan is the sum of all wisdom and it makes complete sense that they (evil spirits and demons) would be more inclined to lead and possess someone who could lead many away....To boot....even the pigs are not immune ;)
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#33
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
1) No they are still possessing people to this day and all over the world, common and influential alike.

2) Same as mentioned in 1 all around the world in common to influential people alike

3) Possibly as society would rather label things as a mental or some other kind of disorder then face admitting demon possession. Because society treats us as nuts/crazy if we believe in such things.

4) The gifts have not ceased, common misuse of 1 Corinthians 13, as it says only if the are done in part without love will they cease because they would be none effective or edifying. And exorcism is part of the healing gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#34
I did not say that they do not possess normal, every day (Joes)....My point is simple....influence the ones who have the most influence....Hell has raised UP all the CHIEF ones of the earth...Satan attempted to influence the most power mover and shaker the planet has ever seen....Jesus...It is obvious by Herod's action that he was led of the devil as he murdered all children under two...Look at the people like HITLER, Mussolini, Stalin, Saddam, Muhammad etc. though out all the ages who were obviously led by Satan and influenced by evil and their fallen nature doing the works of their father the devil....and leading the masses astray and into ruin and oblivion....worshipped as gods....I am just saying that Satan is the sum of all wisdom and it makes complete sense that they (evil spirits and demons) would be more inclined to lead and possess someone who could lead many away....To boot....even the pigs are not immune ;)
Given what God says about the inclinations of Man's heart, (Gen. 6:5), I can't really go with your "it is obvious." Sorry. Demons aren't the only evil in this world.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
#35
Given what God says about the inclinations of Man's heart, (Gen. 6:5), I can't really go with your "it is obvious." Sorry. Demons aren't the only evil in this world.
Go back and quote where I said that demons are the only evil in the world and no where did I imply that man is not inherently evil.....and history speak volumes to my point regardless of your inability to see it or acknowledge it... ;)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#36
Go back and quote where I said that demons are the only evil in the world and no where did I imply that man is not inherently evil.....and history speak volumes to my point regardless of your inability to see it or acknowledge it... ;)
About here:
It is obvious by Herod's action that he was led of the devil as he murdered all children under two...Look at the people like HITLER, Mussolini, Stalin, Saddam, Muhammad etc. though out all the ages who were obviously led by Satan and influenced by evil and their fallen nature doing the works of their father the devil....and leading the masses astray and into ruin and oblivion....worshipped as gods....I am just saying that Satan is the sum of all wisdom and it makes complete sense that they (evil spirits and demons) would be more inclined to lead and possess someone who could lead many away....To boot....even the pigs are not immune ;)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#38
Long wait, all the while you blame the devil for what Herod did, Hitler did, etc. Long wait!
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#39
Can you elaborate a bit on #3?

Q3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
A3...it is probably more commonly the other way around

Are you saying 'it is likely many of those we medicate for demon possession, may be actually schizophrenic etc.' ?
i mean that it is likely that many of the people labelled by 'deliverance ministry' circles as being demon possessed and in need of exorcism are actually just mentally ill and in need of counseling or medication...
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,205
1,109
113
New Zealand
#40
When I woke up from my gall bladder operation my back hurt far worse than the expected pain of surgical cuts and a small missing organ. The surgeon was baffled. By the next day the pain traveled to the front (from the waist to where the bottom of a bra hits the lower ribs.) Four months of agonizing pain while I convinced doctors I wasn't just recovering from the operation. (Looking back, they should have caught on quicker, since the actual pain from the operation was a mere twinge a week later.) They tested me, thinking it was a digestive issue. Have you ever drank an barium milkshake before an upper GI. Mint flavored awful isn't any better than unflavored awful. Having the same stuff shoved up your wazoo for a lower GI is a little worse. I react badly to the dye contrast used in a CT scan. Add to that, the nurse and then the doctor had trouble putting the contrast in that vein in my arm. I was stabbed 17 times. (I counted.) My arm was bruised from halfway up the upper arm to close to the wrist. You know that tube with the camera they use for a colonoscopy? Well, I got that one. And then 6 other times I got the same thing shoved down my throat. After several months of this, I got tired of wating so long for the test and then waiting even longer for the doctor to tell me the test was negative, that I begged him to do it all in one day. They did. They put me in the hospital the night before, and shoved a wire a camera at the end through my nose, down my throat, through the stomach out into the beginning of the intestine and up the common duct to where my ex-gall bladder used to be. And then they taped it to my nose and told me to live like that for a day. Got to say, if I wiggled my nose I sneezed. Try not wiggling your nose, even when you sleep. I think back with all I endured to get better and realized most knew all along what went wrong with my gall bladder (they twisted my back pulling me off the table and pinched a nerve. No one could figure out the problem until 15 years later. The statue of limitation for malpractice is 3 years, but they could have done something to unpinch it early. Same doctor who told me she had no idea of the cause at the very beginning forgot who I was the next time I went to her 15 years later, yet when I described my pain, she instantly figured out what the 19 out of the 20 tests I took wouldn't tell me.)

Got to say. I have absolutely no idea what tests they run to see if someone has a mental disability, but if praying over them before testing them was done, I bet a good 10% of them would never need to find out either. And they wouldn't be stuck on medication that causes other behavioral and physical problems too. I did try prayer first. Not only easier, but quicker, if it worked. Better yet, I can have my life back if it works.
Yes I work as a Support Co-ordinator for people who have mental disabilities. There is a group that get given medications for a condition .. and then become dependent on the meds.. and the meds have serious side affects.

These people often end up having shorter lives, more behavioural/mental illness type issues and health problems due to the side affects of the meds.

A few of our guys have got 'bowing of the back' from having potent medications for too long. This is like backward back arching.. involuntary. One lady had this.. and had the shakes from the meds.

The really sad thing is -- if they had gone a different route aside from meds... preferably prayer and good peer support or parent support.. then some of these people may have appeared on the outside to be hardly disabled at all.

The lady with the bowing of the back.. and shaking.. I think died recently.. but when younger could run around, did not shake and was capable of quite a lot of things.

Man... we as staff sometimes get so het up about this kind of thing. People getting institutionalised in the past.. given a lot of meds.. etc.... because of a label given them.

Sure maybe they do need some assistance.. maybe even a little meds.. but it goes over the top.