Departure From Oblivion!

[KennethC]

the following a a quote from this thread
The Great Deception and falling away!


That is amazing that you would say that after talking to you for 2 days about that very same thing. Every word is where it's at. AMEN!

I was not saying two separate things in these threads, as notice in the one from The Great Deception and falling away!

I said they have to be taken into their proper exegesis, which means properly spoke on for the purpose they served.
It does not mean we have to continue to obey those physical ordinances.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Moving forward.....

I haven't forgotten you Jamie... just seems like a good time to let the dust settle around here before getting back to making some posts about REAL APPLICATIONS of SPIRITUAL TRUTHS. That's what I am looking forward to anyway... Prayers to all the people... soft hearts... mutual servitude... amen.

 

[KennethC]

There is nothing in the law that says to slap the slapper back in retaliation. LOL


[video=youtube;GVFO4i8wkUs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVFO4i8wkUs[/video]

What ???

It says if they cause you to loose a tooth they are to loose one of theirs, same with the eye, life, hand, foot, so on....

It does not say let them go without giving the same compensation back that you took from them, but that is what the Lord was saying do not ask for that compensation but give them more then they take from you.

 

[just-me]

What ???

It says if they cause you to loose a tooth they are to loose one of theirs, same with the eye, life, hand, foot, so on....

It does not say let them go without giving the same compensation back that you took from them, but that is what the Lord was saying do not ask for that compensation but give them more then they take from you.

You do not know the law at all (looks like it anyway) I posted the true situation in this post # 350

 

[KennethC]

You do not know the law at all (looks like it anyway) I posted the true situation in this post # 350

I know the law just fine my brother and the eye for an eye was about compensation toward the one you have wronged, and the compensation has to be the same that you took from them.

The Lord instead said if they come in and aks from you, instead of the asking compensation give them more.
As in verse 40 shows if somebody wants to sue you give them more then they ask.

For it is about humbling yourself as materialistic things can be replaced.

 

[just-us-2]

Speaking of God's laws, an eye for an eye, fairness, etc...I was watching news a little while ago and today another cop was shot and killed near Chicago and I began to think it is time for my younger brother to retire from being a sheriff’s deputy. Then my mind took a stroll as I imagined how different things would be now if the church had stood strong, abiding by God’s statutes for punishment throughout the centuries. There would have been no Ferguson Missouri, no Baltimore, no death of an innocent little 9-year old girl hit by a bullet fired outside as she sat on a bed doing homework. It is getting worse by the day and yet I have had conversations where people say I am cold-hearted for being in favor of the death penalty. That is their privilege to tell me I am cold-hearted, but it is also mine to point out the short-sightedness of our justice system, completely overlooking the major purpose of the seemingly harsh laws God gave so long ago – the deterrent of knowing what the punishment would be and knowing it would be carried out. And I muse…maybe my son would never have never broken the law and been sent to prison if God’s instructions were followed today…and just maybe my other son would still be alive…if the church body, and better yet, the community, was governed God’s way.

Read these two small passages and really think about what they say.
Exodus 21:20-27
20 "If a person beats his male or female slave with a stick so severely that he dies, he is to be punished;
21 except that if the slave lives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his property.
22 "If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman's husband and confirmed by judges.
23 But if any harm follows, then you are to give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound and bruise for bruise.
26 "If a person hits his male or female slave's eye and destroys it, he must let him go free in compensation for his eye.
27 If he knocks out his male or female slave's tooth, he must let him go free in compensation for his tooth.

Deuteronomy 19:11-21
11 "However, if someone hates his fellow member of the community, lies in wait for him, attacks him, strikes him a death blow, and then flees into one of these cities;
12 then the leaders of his own town are to send and bring him back from there and hand him over to the next-of-kin avenger, to be put to death.
13 You are not to pity him. Rather, you must put an end to the shedding of innocent blood in Isra'el. Then things will go well with you.
14"You are not to move your neighbor's boundary marker from the place where people put it long ago, in the inheritance soon to be yours in the land ADONAI your God is giving you to possess.
15 "One witness alone will not be sufficient to convict a person of any offense or sin of any kind; the matter will be established only if there are two or three witnesses testifying against him.
16 "If a malicious witness comes forward and gives false testimony against someone,
17 then both the men involved in the controversy are to stand before ADONAI, before the cohanim and the judges in office at the time.
18The judges are to investigate carefully. If they find that the witness is lying and has given false testimony against his brother,
19 you are to do to him what he intended to do to his brother. In this way, you will put an end to such wickedness among you.
20 Those who remain will hear about it, be afraid and no longer commit such wickedness among you.
21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

 

[just-me]

I know the law just fine my brother and the eye for an eye was about compensation toward the one you have wronged, and the compensation has to be the same that you took from them.

The Lord instead said if they come in and aks from you, instead of the asking compensation give them more.
As in verse 40 shows if somebody wants to sue you give them more then they ask.

For it is about humbling yourself as materialistic things can be replaced.

You're close, but the principle has little to do with materialistic equity. That's thinking outside of the spiritual box, but of course we don't want to go into the carnal mind thing again. It's the scripture that just-us-2 posted. Try seeing the spiritual insight to the principle, and then apply it to loving your neighbor as yourself knowing there are still instructions hanging on the 2 greatest commandments telling us how to exact love, because the finite details of love are written in the law.

Leviticus 19:11-18
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.


For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?(1 Peter 4:17)

 

[just-me]

. And I muse…maybe my son would never have never broken the law and been sent to prison if God’s instructions were followed today…and just maybe my other son would still be alive…if the church body, and better yet, the community, was governed God’s way.

I'm sorry. Please ease her pain Father.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I'm sorry. Please ease her pain Father.

Me too. Those are not mere musings... rather painful and bitter truth's... I have my own... not meaning to compete... I do understand.

 

[just-us-2]

Sometimes the conversations/arguments/debates in the forums appear to be engaged in for no more than entertainment and I do get frustrated with the petty-mindedness.

Almighty God created a lovely planet and put humans on it for the purpose of having a relationship - an intimate friendship with the humans. But He wanted the humans to be able to choose to have a friendship with Him because they wanted to, not because they were robotic. He knew they would sin and had a plan in place to make it possible for me, living thousands of years after Adam and Eve first sinned and had to leave Eden, to restore that intended relationship with my Creator.

God taught Adam the way to live and many years later told His servant Moses to write down the statutes and ordinances for generations to come. What I find so amazing about Adonai's instructions for everything from growing fruit to removing waste to taking care of livestock and everything in between, is that He designed everything so that all day, every day the people would be reminded of His presence because they were doing everything the way Yahweh prescribed. There is so much more strength to resist the Adversary when we walk that closely with the Great I AM! So much more peace when the whole community lives the same way.

And I am ashamed when I think of how much of my day goes by that I don't consciously think of and thank my Heavenly Father for all He mercifully continues to do for our well-being.

 

[Shoshanah]

Me too. Those are not mere musings... rather painful and bitter truth's... I have my own... not meaning to compete... I do understand.

I am so sorry for these sorrows you and just-us-2 have endured. I know it must be very difficult and must hurt terribly all the time, so I don't mean to sound trite when I say this -- I believe it is one of those not-so-easy-to-see blessings that will enable you both to help others in a way many others could not. We have all heard how God gives each of us certain gifts, abilities, experiences and so on, that we can use to help others and we are all given different gifts because of the different tasks God will give us in our lifetime to use to edify our fellow man.

 

[just-me]

I am so sorry for these sorrows you and just-us-2 have endured. I know it must be very difficult and must hurt terribly all the time, so I don't mean to sound trite when I say this -- I believe it is one of those not-so-easy-to-see blessings that will enable you both to help others in a way many others could not. We have all heard how God gives each of us certain gifts, abilities, experiences and so on, that we can use to help others and we are all given different gifts because of the different tasks God will give us in our lifetime to use to edify our fellow man.

It is a sin against society to teach that God's law needs to be dead in order to be saved. Where has the real grace gone? If my neighbor isn't a Christian, I still need to love them as myself. I yearn for the truth in the world, and especially my country and neighborhood. So we pray 'Thy Kingdom come', meaning let God's will and purpose and God's nature show through in every state of affairs, because that's what it is for God to be king. It's not asking for God to be ordering everyone and everything around but for God in his glory to be visible everywhere.

[video=youtube;y0EA3Bx4YkI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0EA3Bx4YkI[/video]

 

[jamie26301]

Actually, it seems that in places where the death penalty was abolished, crime went DOWN. I don't mean to imply causation, but to be such a great deterrent, murder is still a thing that happens regardless.

States With No Death Penalty Share Lower Homicide Rates | Death Penalty Information Center

Death Penalty does not deter crimes
In fact, most people on death row committed their crimes in the heat of passion, while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or while suffering from mental illness. They represent a group that is highly unlikely to make rational decisions based on a fear of future consequences for their actions. The idea that the death penalty has the power to stop murder is naive and clearly proven false by the facts. Studies that have shown the death penalty reduces crime have been discredited by rigorous research.

ABSENCE OF EXECUTIONS - A special report. - States With No Death Penalty Share Lower Homicide Rates - NYTimes.com

The idea that the death penalty deters murder is conventional wisdom, but hard numbers doesn't seem the reflect that. Other variables to look at, of course, but that doesn't change that on the surface, it doesn't deter violence.

And if that's the case, why have it? Esp since many, many innocent people were proven AFTER the execution to be innocent. Is that loving, knowing those odds for human lives to ride on it? Many people can change be be reformed and introduced back into society, anyway.

You have a populace that sees jury duty as a grueling chore, among other corruptions in the justice system like money, and think this is going to give murderers (or an innocent person subject to a jury that doesn't think critically, and a bad lawyer) what they deserve?

There are so many other factors to why crime is what it is in this country... It's not simply because people know they might be given a death sentence. It didn't wipe out murder in Moses' time and it won't today. I used to be pro-capital punishment, but the more I learn about the weaknesses of our justice system, the more I am against it.

A great number of people are in jail for non-violent crimes... It's a business, didn't you know?

Here's a good pro/con collection:
Does the Death Penalty Deter Crime? - Death Penalty - ProCon.org

 

[jamie26301]

I mean to add:

I am sorry for you loss just-us-2. It's hard to say how things would be different... I just know that we have the here and now and the call to grow and learn in Christ

Blessings

 

[Shoshanah]

Actually, it seems that in places where the death penalty was abolished, crime went DOWN. I don't mean to imply causation, but to be such a great deterrent, murder is still a thing that happens regardless.

States With No Death Penalty Share Lower Homicide Rates | Death Penalty Information Center




ABSENCE OF EXECUTIONS - A special report. - States With No Death Penalty Share Lower Homicide Rates - NYTimes.com

The idea that the death penalty deters murder is conventional wisdom, but hard numbers doesn't seem the reflect that. Other variables to look at, of course, but that doesn't change that on the surface, it doesn't deter violence.

And if that's the case, why have it? Esp since many, many innocent people were proven AFTER the execution to be innocent. Is that loving, knowing those odds for human lives to ride on it? Many people can change be be reformed and introduced back into society, anyway.

You have a populace that sees jury duty as a grueling chore, among other corruptions in the justice system like money, and think this is going to give murderers (or an innocent person subject to a jury that doesn't think critically, and a bad lawyer) what they deserve?

There are so many other factors to why crime is what it is in this country... It's not simply because people know they might be given a death sentence. It didn't wipe out murder in Moses' time and it won't today. I used to be pro-capital punishment, but the more I learn about the weaknesses of our justice system, the more I am against it.

A great number of people are in jail for non-violent crimes... It's a business, didn't you know?

Here's a good pro/con collection:
Does the Death Penalty Deter Crime? - Death Penalty - ProCon.org

Your points are expressed well and kindly - I appreciate that. I can wonder if things would be different but I KNOW God's way is absolutely the best. After all these centuries departed from His perfect system we can only muse how it would be if there had been no departure from His ways.

 

[jamie26301]

Your points are expressed well and kindly - I appreciate that. I can wonder if things would be different but I KNOW God's way is absolutely the best. After all these centuries departed from His perfect system we can only muse how it would be if there had been no departure from His ways.

Thank you sister. I know sometimes I can be a little snarky in my posts, but I wish you and everyone on this site Godspeed for the journeys ahead.

 

[just-me]

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/121215-why-there-so-many-different-sects.html
This thread (mentioned above) actually made me sad, but it was an honest question. Not because of the thread itself, but because different denominations (thousands) are basically all because of division caused by people being oblivious to the truth of God's word in many different areas of scripture. I have determined that this division is caused by purposeful rejection on the part of a sect, or an individual having no desire to connect one truth with another truth.

Then of course there is division caused by falsehood being noticed, and a group or individual divorces those falsehoods because they are proven incorrect according to scripture. Nevertheless, there are still undetected errors that follow them, previously learned from what they departed from so errors according to the truth continue.

It appears that there are pet doctrines that human nature subconsciously adheres to because they seem right and cause a certain comfort despite sincerely believing a doctrine that could be compared with a spinning wheel stuck in the mud, expending all kinds of energy without going any further because the goal has already been met according to the doctrine they believe in.
Being oblivious to the truth in certain degrees causes division. Division causes multitudes of diverse doctrines, and all doctrines must have a formula and format that says “we believe all that is necessary, and nothing else is important enough to investigate because it doesn't apply to our current status.”

That mindset causes obliviousness to one degree or the other due to satisfaction with the precedence of contentment issued from behind the pulpit. (Acts 17:11-12) Being satisfied according to human standards causes division if we look into scripture that defines the fleshly mind. Some is subconscious, and some is on purpose defending our doctrines rather than contending for our God given faith, thus prohibiting growth in the grace of God Almighty through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Who can actually say that their church teaches and preaches all the truth we will ever need without earnestly studying the Word of God for ourselves?
[video=youtube;RCyYuLQ7_Ws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCyYuLQ7_Ws[/video]

 

[gb9]

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/121215-why-there-so-many-different-sects.html
This thread (mentioned above) actually made me sad, but it was an honest question. Not because of the thread itself, but because different denominations (thousands) are basically all because of division caused by people being oblivious to the truth of God's word in many different areas of scripture. I have determined that this division is caused by purposeful rejection on the part of a sect, or an individual having no desire to connect one truth with another truth.

Then of course there is division caused by falsehood being noticed, and a group or individual divorces those falsehoods because they are proven incorrect according to scripture. Nevertheless, there are still undetected errors that follow them, previously learned from what they departed from so errors according to the truth continue.

It appears that there are pet doctrines that human nature subconsciously adheres to because they seem right and cause a certain comfort despite sincerely believing a doctrine that could be compared with a spinning wheel stuck in the mud, expending all kinds of energy without going any further because the goal has already been met according to the doctrine they believe in.
Being oblivious to the truth in certain degrees causes division. Division causes multitudes of diverse doctrines, and all doctrines must have a formula and format that says “we believe all that is necessary, and nothing else is important enough to investigate because it doesn't apply to our current status.”

That mindset causes obliviousness to one degree or the other due to satisfaction with the precedence of contentment issued from behind the pulpit. (Acts 17:11-12) Being satisfied according to human standards causes division if we look into scripture that defines the fleshly mind. Some is subconscious, and some is on purpose defending our doctrines rather than contending for our God given faith, thus prohibiting growth in the grace of God Almighty through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Who can actually say that their church teaches and preaches all the truth we will ever need without earnestly studying the Word of God for ourselves?
[video=youtube;RCyYuLQ7_Ws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCyYuLQ7_Ws[/video]

in the 2nd to last paragraph you said grow in grace. this is a false statement of a works-based mindset. we do not grow grace. grace is GIVEN. we grow faith. good works follow. you know, Ephesians 2 explains all this. maybe you mis-spoke, but us growing grace is a non-truth.

 

[just-me]

That mindset causes obliviousness to one degree or the other due to satisfaction with the precedence of contentment issued from behind the pulpit. (Acts 17:11-12) Being satisfied according to human standards causes division if we look into scripture that defines the fleshly mind. Some is subconscious, and some is on purpose defending our doctrines rather than contending for our God given faith, thus prohibiting growth in the grace of God Almighty through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

in the 2nd to last paragraph you said grow in grace. this is a false statement of a works-based mindset. we do not grow grace. grace is GIVEN. we grow faith. good works follow. you know, Ephesians 2 explains all this. maybe you mis-spoke, but us growing grace is a non-truth.

Thank you for your input. His grace continues toward us as we grow within His will revealed by His word. "But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:18)

And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you. (Genesis 40:8)

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Purposefully hiding the truth either because of embarrassment, or pride will never lead to forgiveness. But chasing after, and acknowledging the truth about oneself will will lead to forgiveness, yet in some cases might lead to chastisement and “no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. ( Hebrews 12:11)

Purposefully or accidentally propagating deceptive practices restrict the truth, either by attempting to make a comfortable situation for oneself and/or others so “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.” (Hebrews 4:1)

 

[gkroo]

Hebrews 7:11-27 defines the Levitical priesthood as inferior.

First, let's go back to Levi, since he is the one who started the Levitical priesthood. This was the blessings that Jacob gave to his sons in the beginning and they have filtered down to now.

Gen 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.
Gen 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
Gen 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.


The Levites are scattered. The United States could be considered a Levite nation.