God did away with some of His own sayings

[eternally-gratefull]

Good post!

"Their worm" is possessive. The cocoon is weaved while on earth and still in this mortal body. This is for the deceived and the ungodly.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24

Mark 9:43-50
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

"Their worm" is an eternal reminder of what could have been, but it's too late.

funny how you would take a passage which speaks against law (the impossibility of obeying the law) and twist it to mean what you claim.

He is talking to people who think that a sin would cause them to lose salvation. Well he says truly to them, if thats true, it is better to cut off your hand or whatever, then go to hell.

See why you lawyers are so dangerous.

 

[KennethC]

Actually in John 15:2 the word translated taketh away is the word airo which means to lift. just a vine dresser lifts a vine and ties it up so that it bears fruit.

Jesus says that if you abide not in him you are cast forth as a branch and burned John 15:6.

That is a false rendering of the original Greek, and I have heard this faulty debate before.

For that scripture says that only those that produce fruit are pruned so that they can produce more, the ones that don't produce fruit are gathered and cast into the fire to be burned up. It says nothing about pruning the unfruitful ones !!!

 

[KennethC]

Scripture also says that one who is saved is sealed by the Holy SPirit of promise until the day of redemption (judgment day) and this seal is the guarantee of his salvation.

So how can someone be sealed by the HS until he recieved his judgment, and be cast into the lake of fire?

Scripture can not contradict now can it? Interpret scripture with scripture not with our belief system.

Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Bearing fruit is earning reward. That is what it means, God is the one who produces the fruit through you. It is not earning salvation it is earning reward. so again, context.

It says if your not going to be used of God he will cut you off. Not out.

Again what some seem to overlook is in that same passage where Paul is speaking on being sealed with the Holy Spirit, that he gives along with it a strict warning that gets down played to much.

And that is do not grieve the Holy Spirit by being disobedient !!!

 

[shotgunner]

Hebrews 6: 4-6 isn't even talking about Christians. It is speaking of Jews returning to the old covenant sacrifices. I know some will ignorantly claim that's not so but if they will study closely and seek Godly council they will see that it is the truth.

 

[shotgunner]

That is a false rendering of the original Greek, and I have heard this faulty debate before.

For that scripture says that only those that produce fruit are pruned so that they can produce more, the ones that don't produce fruit are gathered and cast into the fire to be burned up. It says nothing about pruning the unfruitful ones !!!

I didn't say pruned, and no it's not incorrect. It just doesn't fit into your works mentality.

 

[just-me]

Actually in John 15:2 the word translated taketh away is the word airo which means to lift. just a vine dresser lifts a vine and ties it up so that it bears fruit.

Jesus says that if you abide not in him you are cast forth as a branch and burned John 15:6.

I don't get that in the complete sentence of Jesus' quotation.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2

I have pear trees, apple trees and plum trees. In order for them to bear fruit, the branches that are sticking straight up I cut off because they usually don't bear any fruit. The branches that bear the best fruit are the ones pulled down, causing the tree to look like an umbrella of sorts. The best trees are the trees that are spread out with branches that are very close to horizontal or lower. A fruit tree that is a good shade tree bears little or no fruit at all. Good trees are pruned back extensively during late winter, and sucklings are pruned all during the fruit bearing season in to the fall of the year.

 

[KennethC]

A person who does not give up his sinful ways has never repented to begin with, nor has he ever been saved, How can they lose something they never had?

Again terms used in the word of God;

fall away, depart from, do not continue in, drawn away, and deceived.....

All of these speak on believers who have gone back to walking in the flesh (sinful lifestyle), for you can not fall away, depart from, no longer continue in, be drawn away from, or be deceived from following the truth if you were never in the truth to begin with.

A person has to be in the faith in order to depart or fall away from it !!!

Even Paul in Acts 20:28-31 says disciples, which means believers in Christ.

 

[just-me]

Hebrews 6: 4-6 isn't even talking about Christians. It is speaking of Jews returning to the old covenant sacrifices. I know some will ignorantly claim that's not so but if they will study closely and seek Godly council they will see that it is the truth.

If it's not speaking of those who have experienced the heavenly gift and the Holy Ghost, what would they be falling from? Could it be referring to a false conversion?

 

[KennethC]

Hebrews 6: 4-6 isn't even talking about Christians. It is speaking of Jews returning to the old covenant sacrifices. I know some will ignorantly claim that's not so but if they will study closely and seek Godly council they will see that it is the truth.

Read Hebrews again especially that of Hebrews 3-4 and Hebrews 10, for they are not speaking on Jews returning to the law.

Those chapters are speaking on entering into the kingdom of heaven (receiving eternal life), this bad teaching of saying it is speaking on OT animal sacrifices is false.

Hebrews 10 clearly starts off with explaining what believers need to do to enter into the kingdom, and then follows with a strict warning of continuing in willful sin after receiving the truth. The sacrifice mentioned there is the Lord's sacrifice, as it clearly shows after mentioning the sacrifice that those who continue to willfully sin are trampling Jesus underfoot.

In other words those who continue to willfully/deliberately sin are spitting in the face of the Lord who sacrificed Himself for us by disobeying His command to repent from those sinful ways.

I didn't say pruned, and no it's not incorrect. It just doesn't fit into your works mentality.

Read post #246 because Just-me explained this in very good understanding.............

 

[posthuman]

He has not done away with Christ,

who is the righteousness of those who trust Him!!

 

[shotgunner]

I don't get that in the complete sentence of Jesus' quotation.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2

I have pear trees, apple trees and plum trees. In order for them to bear fruit, the branches that are sticking straight up I cut off because they usually don't bear any fruit. The branches that bear the best fruit are the ones pulled down, causing the tree to look like an umbrella of sorts. The best trees are the trees that are spread out with branches that are very close to horizontal or lower. A fruit tree that is a good shade tree bears little or no fruit at all. Good trees are pruned back extensively during late winter, and sucklings are pruned all during the fruit bearing season in to the fall of the year.

That may be so with fruit trees but with vines it is common to tie up a branch higher on the arbor. I've studied it out and so can you if you like. While the word Airo can be translated as cut away the more common rendering is to lift up. So jesus lifts up the vines that aren't bearing fruit so that they can and everyone that does bear fruit he purges so that it bears more fruit.

 

[KennethC]

That may be so with fruit trees but with vines it is common to tie up a branch higher on the arbor. I've studied it out and so can you if you like. While the word Airo can be translated as cut away the more common rendering is to lift up. So jesus lifts up the vines that aren't bearing fruit so that they can and everyone that does bear fruit he purges so that it bears more fruit.

The problem is you are then saying we are vines and that is not what the scripture says.

It says Jesus is the vine and we are the branches, and He does not say in that scripture the unfruitful ones are lifted up so that they can produce fruit.

John 15:2 says every brand in Him that does not produce fruit He takes away, and John 15:6 says what happens to those who gets taking away as they are cast into the fire and burned.

 

[just-me]

That may be so with fruit trees but with vines it is common to tie up a branch higher on the arbor. I've studied it out and so can you if you like. While the word Airo can be translated as cut away the more common rendering is to lift up. So jesus lifts up the vines that aren't bearing fruit so that they can and everyone that does bear fruit he purges so that it bears more fruit.

I have grown grapes also. They need something to climb on in difference with trees that are pruned. Grapes are lifted as they climb, but if they are not stabilized they do not have the strength to sustain their own branches upward without some stability.

It really is all spiritual in the sense of human relationship with Christ. It's the same with clean and unclean animals. They all relate to human nature, and/or the spiritual nature according to the scripture. It is also very important to read Hebrews 6:1-3 in relation to the falling away in verse 4-6. If we are not striving to maturity in Christ after being born again, then verse 4-6 will in all likeness happen.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.And this will we do, if God permit. Read my signature.

 

[atwhatcost]

lol.. They agree with just me? or just what Just me seems to be saying here?

There is a huge difference my friend. Me and just me are old buddies. we have hashed this out before. It is not something knew.

You ever have someone you discussed things with over and over, and you know what they are saying, but they continue to deny it.

Yeah I am sure you do. we have all dealt with people like that. This is one of those cases.

So do you feel we should still be observing all the OT rituals of the law?

Do you believe one can not covet just by the words (do not covet) *ie the words do not covet show us how to not covet) Because that is what Just me believes, how do I know? Because I have asked him before. He got mad at me for even asking such a question. Because as he put it, why else would God say do not covet unless it could help us not covet..

And these are just a few points of all the law obeying principles just me has trie to shove down our throats the past year or two.

I asked this for a reason:

Want proof? There are at least five people on this thread that agree with Just-me. Name them!

I'll even give you the reason. I asked because you already have assumed there are just two on this thread agreeing with Just-Me and one of them is Just-me. Therefore what you have done is hounded those two to the point of going on other threads to prove-YOUR-point instead of actually reading what's said and speak of those things. Had you actually known there were five people who agreed, you would have hounded all five people. Instead, you figure out I agree so now you have three to hound.

Here's the kicker. Want to know what you did to the other two? Acted nice and asked questions after reading what they said, but you didn't get it.

That really is nice. I wish you'd do that with everyone. If you don't get something, ask -- instead of assume this has absolutely anything with people thinking we're still governed/sentenced/stuck with by the Law of God/Moses' Law.

I've decided to play nice too. I've ignored you because you have long ago abandoned reason. (At least before I joined this site.)

 

[atwhatcost]

peanuts.....popcorn..........shotguns, ............ firehoses........brass knuckles

We got them all right here folks........what's your pleasure?

Teddy bears?

 

[atwhatcost]

Where in the world do you get this false accusation from ???

You just can not stop with passing false allegations on people when they disagree with you can you ??? Back on ignore you go !!!

Ha! And I thought we'd never agree.

I was wrong!

 

[KennethC]

Ha! And I thought we'd never agree.

I was wrong!

Well he said it was a mistake as he didn't mean to state it against me, but that is why I had him on ignore in the first place as well as one other. Because of false allegations made over and over again that was asked for them to please stop.

E.G. is now doing pretty good now, but the other I do not know if I can ever get him to show the fruits of the Spirit toward me.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

peanuts.....popcorn..........shotguns, ............ firehoses........brass knuckles

We got them all right here folks........what's your pleasure?

Do we have any stones? If we are to follow "all that God has ever spoken completely applies to us as true believers in Christ Jesus to this very day" - we will need them. And I'm confused as to what we are to eat - Genesis - I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so . . . after the flood - Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things . . . and we all know the food laws set up within the law - then in the epistles - Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scripture might have hope. . . . We can learn so many things from the OT . . . We learn of the first and second coming of Christ - we learn patience and comfort from seeing how the children of Israel, the prophets, the Kings, etc. lived their lives . . . but we cannot possibly apply all that is written in the OT to our lives. Is that throwing away the OT? . . in NO way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again what some seem to overlook is in that same passage where Paul is speaking on being sealed with the Holy Spirit, that he gives along with it a strict warning that gets down played to much.

And that is do not grieve the Holy Spirit by being disobedient !!!

He saiys do not grieve the holy spirit, with whom you have been sealed.

Your ignoring the fact that grieving the holy spirit does not cause us to lose the seal (salvation) but it is not a good thing at all.

The problem is we can not discuss what these ramifications are. because you think it is a loss of salvation. (God kicks us out of his family)

Did your dad kick you out of his family every time you grieved him with your behavior?

 

[atwhatcost]

What did you miss?

View attachment 135518


Nothing. It was how you interpreted what you read and reached a false conclusion. Let me use his own words to paint it clearly for you.

#1. "I was just wondering how people can demean God's character be saying God did away with this or that of certain things He said previously in Biblical history."

What, atwhatcost, do you suppose that means? To me, what I see is someone who does not comprehend what it means to rightly divide the word of God. To rightly divide certain truths that are only applicable to a certain people or spoken group. It is a lack of acknowledgement that the cross changed things, Jesus changed things. It is a willful ignorance of being under a new covenant that cannot and does not mix with the old way of self-righteousness. Yet, he wishes to make a point that it is demeaning God's character to imply God did away with things He spoke, yet fails to realize whom the Lord was speaking to (under a covenant of old).

He means that people dismiss the whole of the law to ignore it to do whatever they want and claim "Jesus did away with the Law." What we call today "anarchist."

Are you one of those people who do that?

Honestly? A friend on here was confused on who to trust and who not to trust on here. I gave him three names of people he could trust. You're one. So, I honestly don't think you're that person. I do, however, think you haven't given enough time to adjust and digest what Just-Me is saying. He likes the OT. He likes the prophets. He likes the NT. He's often hard to understand.

But you know where I first got the impression that he was a legalist? Because he has anti-legalist groupies following him all the time constantly saying Just-Me is going back to the law to follow that, instead of Jesus. Want to hear something weird? When I was first on this site I believed them simply because that many people can't be wrong, right? And that many people kept saying "if you just listen long enough, you'll see."

Seemed like a reasonable request, doncha think?

So I did. And, when I didn't get what he meant, I asked. And, he really is from something I've never been a part of (in a way), so I often didn't understand. (And by "something I've never seen been a part of," I mean he's definitely not Wesleyan, nor Calvinist, nor Messianic, nor any of a number of denoms and nondenoms I've checked out in my Christian walk. He matches no discernible pattern I've ever run into in theology.) I can't put my finger on him to label him, except I still kept reading, and checking, and trying to understand.

Answers came slowly. Partly because he doesn't talk Christianese -- in any dialect and I get the lingo of a lot of different parts of the Christian Church. Partly because I'm not the brightest bulb in the box. But when you listen -- really really listen -- he's saying what I believe.

No we're not "under the law." We don't have to go buy a goat every time we sin. I didn't have to hide away whenever I had my period. We don't have to do the Passover anymore. But, dagnabit! That law is GOD'S WILL! That IS telling us what it is to be perfect -- to be like God. (Not to say we'll ever acheive it to be like gods. That's a different thing.) It does mean something! It still means something because it is the perfect show of what God is telling us is perfection! HOLY! God! God shows us who he is when he said not to cheat someone in a deal. (I like that one because that's what created the bakers dozen. Bakers didn't want to cheat their customers because of God's law, so, to make sure they didn't cheat them out of a dozen donuts by one donut, they gave 13. Worse that could happen is they screw up and only give a dozen. That is the heart of God in a simple idea from God's law.)

Can we do it? Well, since Paul didn't make it, and his mind was on God 24/7, I don't think any of us can. Paul said what I want to do what I don't do because my flesh is at war with the spirit. (Paraphrase.) That's the kicker! We're still stuck waging war, even after Jesus won the Law. He fulfilled it, didn't do away with it. He is God's perfection and through his sacrificial lamb (himself) and his scapegoat, (also himself), he fulfilled that which we cannot. He covered us like a mantle or like a good husband for his wife by fulfilling the Law, not pushing it aside.

Tell me that you can't get on board with that? Honestly, took me three months to figure out what Just-Me was saying, but he has confirmed to me that we are in agreement on this, so I'm not getting him wrong.

The real problem? All the voices shouting over him trying to say he's a legalist. If they'd stop going with the anti-legalists groupies and truly listen. Truly try and figure out what Just-Me is saying, well? Pretty much, they're going to agree in the long run. It's not simple (by a long shot lol), but it IS the gospel!

Now, instead of assuming all the anti-legalist groupies are right, all I ask is that you see him like this as you read what he is really saying. Instead of telling him he's wrong as the knee-jerk reaction, ask him! If you don't get it when he answers, tell him what you're still not getting.

Earlier, someone asked him a question and Just-Me answered with a verse -- didn't even show the verse, just told where it was. Back when I didn't get what he meant, I'd google the verse, (again, not the brightest bulb in the box so I have very little ability to memorize scripture, but google is my shortcut.) I'd read it, check out my question again to see if that answered it for me, and if it didn't, I did one of two things:
1. Give up for the day, because my brain was fried from trying to understand. (I'm doing the same thing with Old Hermit right now. lol) And then go back at it the next day.

2. If it wasn't because my brain was fried, I'd take a different route in asking. Many times you can tell me "the sky is blue," but I'm stuck remembering prisms, reflections, blahblahblah, so I can't get "the sky is blue." So, if I say what I'm thinking, and then ask for the person to say the same answer in another way, the person knows where I'm lost and does that for me. Just-Me has been doing that for me often.

What doesn't work is starting off with "you're wrong!" Seriously, dude? Want to tick me off royally, start out with "you're wrong." I may well be wrong, but attack right off the bat and you could be giving me directions to my own personal billion dollars and I'd never know it. You've shut me down, so I shut you down.

I haven't seen you interact with Just-Me until this thread, but the first thing you assumed was he's wrong and you told him that!

And, instead of asking him your questions, you're asking me. I see what he's saying. I see you telling him he's wrong about stuff he never said. (Even to me you went with "divide God's word rightly," as if that answered or said squat. Sure, divide God's word rightly, but before you go off blaming others for not doing that, how about making sure they AREN'T doing that? Have you noticed a distinct change between what you perceived from reality yet? So telling someone divide when you don't even know if they do yet, is the same thing as "you're wrong" before you KNOW if they are.)

How do you know he's wrong if you don't know what he believes? He said exactly what he said. This first question you're asking me is translate what he said. Well, I did. Now I'm handing this back to you to talk to him and really find out what he's saying, instead of having the groupies pointing to what he never said.

Fair enough? Took me three months. How long will it take you? lol

(And, yes. It probably seems like I haven't done that with quite a few people on this thread, but I have. Unless the first thing you say is truly pure garbage and there is no way of taking it any other way, I do wait before I give up on conversing with people. I've ignored three people today because I finally figured out there is no conversing. There is either "agree with me 100% of the time, or you're wrong." Same problem I have with given two choices only when there are a multitude of other choices.)

You? You're reasonable as long as you stop assuming the majority is right about someone.