Ananias and Sapphira

[notuptome]

Well they lied to the Holy Spirit. If they were unsaved they would do nothing else but lie. As saved people they were obligated to be truthful with the Holy Spirit.

Paul speaks of this in 1 Corinthians 5 where he says to pray for the man engaged in fornication to be given to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that he might be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

Was it not God who said that we can sin a sin leading to death? Sometimes death is mercy..

next.

Yes In John..and death is upon anyone who walks in the flesh...but that has little to do with the point I made here.

 

[Mitspa]

Well they lied to the Holy Spirit. If they were unsaved they would do nothing else but lie. As saved people they were obligated to be truthful with the Holy Spirit.

Paul speaks of this in 1 Corinthians 5 where he says to pray for the man engaged in fornication to be given to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that he might be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:1 ¶ It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Here we have believers doing all manner of evil...but Gods grants them mercy and warns them to repent unless they defile the Temple of God.... I see a huge difference here with the unbelievers who came in to deceive the assembly

 

[Willie-T]

Dude read the context and debate my point in that context...others seem to grasp that it makes sense? I think its evident they was not believers...and biblically they could not be believers ...

Don't be silly just to defend a view. You give a "context", and then you say, "now, debate everything from THIS stance." You don't see the problem with that kind of pre-assumed thought? This is exactly how we have screwed-up Christianity with so many "certain" and "blindly accepted" denominational views.

 

[MarcR]

Well you have to believe that God killed His own people when He swore that He would have mercy...so believe what you want, but I think the context is clear that they was not believers.

There is a great deal of evidence that God will call believers home early, and often painfully, when their lives discredit or dishonor Him.

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

I agree with you quite often; but I don't see this. This seems to strip the parable of the tares of all meaning.

We still have believers who seek to call attention to themselves. Most such do do by doing and boasting rather than by lying about what they have done.

In the early Church, lying to call attention to ones' self was sufficiently dangerous to the life of the Church that it had to be dealt with severely to discourage the practice.

Im not sure your dealing with my point in the context of the passage... The passage clearly separates believers and nonbelievers based on this judgment upon these two people who came into the assemble and lied before all. I think its evident based on the clear reading in context that they was not believers.

 

[Mitspa]

There is a great deal of evidence that God will call believers home early, and often painfully, when their lives discredit or dishonor Him.

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

Even in this we see the mercy of God upon believers and even this man was restored to the body...he was not struck down in judgment as we see in Acts 5

 

[Mitspa]

Don't be silly just to defend a view. You give a "context", and then you say, "now, debate everything from THIS stance." You don't see the problem with that kind of pre-assumed thought? This is exactly how we have screwed-up Christianity with so many "certain" and "blindly accepted" denominational views.

Yes I gave a clear biblical context ...you said you disagree but want to ignore the clear biblical context of my point....Yes I want you to deal with the point I made ....

 

[ladylynn]

After Jesus paid for our sins, died and was resurrected He brought in a new and better covenant. God was and is no longer dealing with His children according to the old covenant of law but He is dealing with His people under the covenant of Grace. Why kill part of the bride? Makes no sense to me if we want to be consistent in our understanding of Jesus. He said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

The church needed protecting from outsiders infiltrating it especially early on. These two were infiltrators. The message we fundamentalist Baptists get out of this was "hey., look out, don't go to church, you'll get zapped in the pews!!!!!" God will 'get ya' if you mess up., Nope, that is not the way God deals with us. But unfortunately many believers think so and also believe God brings sickness and death to His bride to "teach her a lesson"

Nope, we already know who comes to kill, steal and destroy and it is NOT God. Saying God kills His people under grace is not consistent with what Jesus told us about His Father.

 

[Mitspa]

God was and is no longer dealing with His children according to the old covenant of law but He is dealing with His people under the covenant of Grace. Why kill part of the bride? Makes no sense to me if we want to be consistent in our understanding of Jesus. He said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

The church needed protecting from outsiders infiltrating it especially early on. These two were infiltrators. The message we fundamentalist Baptists get out of this was "hey., look out, don't go to church, you'll get zapped in the pews!!!!!" God will 'get ya' if you mess up., Nope, that is not the way God deals with us. But unfortunately many believers think so and also believe God brings sickness and death to His bride to "teach her a lesson"

Nope, we already know who comes to kill, steal and destroy and it is NOT God. Saying God kills His people under grace is not consistent with what Jesus told us about His Father.

Exactly what I believe we should understand from this incident.

 

[ember]

I don't see any evidence that they were not saved. If they were not saved, why would they be dealt with so harshly? That would seem more like a deterent for others to become Christians rather than a corrective measure to bring home the seriousness of their realtionship with God

found this interesting quote on another site

What was so wrong with their plan? They did not really lie to anybody, did they? They just gave the money and said nothing about what percentage of the total sale price it represented. They could not help what other people thought, could they? Evidently they could. Peter, with miraculous divine discernment, attributed their scheme to Satan and called it lying to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3). He explained that they were under no obligation to sell their property. And even after they sold it, they were under no obligation to give all the money to the church. But they were obligated to be honest (Acts 5:4). The major sin of Ananias and Sapphira was dishonesty, deceit, hypocrisy, pretense, presenting a false image of themselves, implying a greater spirituality than they actually possessed, letting people think more highly of them than what they knew was warranted. They were more interested in appearances than inreality. Peter said, “You have not lied to men, but to God” (Acts 5:4).

Many try to maintain an appearance of spirituality and that includes overlooking sin in the pretense of love. It's not love and lying to the Holy Spirit is still as deadly as it was back then.

Liars do not go to heaven along with others who persist in sin while trying to get everyone else to believe they are holy and loving.

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psalm 139:23

The psalmist is asking God to make him aware of sins that he is not aware of in order to correct his ways. God already knows what is inside of us and is not fooled. Deception begins with the individual but God is never fooled or mocked

 

[Mitspa]

I don't see any evidence that they were not saved. If they were not saved, why would they be dealt with so harshly? That would seem more like a deterent for others to become Christians rather than a corrective measure to bring home the seriousness of their realtionship with God

found this interesting quote on another site




Many try to maintain an appearance of spirituality and that includes overlooking sin in the pretense of love. It's not love and lying to the Holy Spirit is still as deadly as it was back then.

Liars do not go to heaven along with others who persist in sin while trying to get everyone else to believe they are holy and loving.

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psalm 139:23

The psalmist is asking God to make him aware of sins that he is not aware of in order to correct his ways. God already knows what is inside of us and is not fooled. Deception begins with the individual but God is never fooled or mocked

Not sure of your point? ...the reason the bible gives for this judgment is to restrict the pretenders from joining the real believers ...and in essence defiling Gods Work..... That God would protect He sheep from the wolves makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Mitspa]

Ananias and Sapphira was clearly NOT believers....read the passage in context.

Ac 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Here is the point...that false believers no longer came into the assembly...but more BELIEVERS where added to the assembly.

 

[Abing]

After Jesus paid for our sins, died and was resurrected He brought in a new and better covenant. God was and is no longer dealing with His children according to the old covenant of law but He is dealing with His people under the covenant of Grace. Why kill part of the bride? Makes no sense to me if we want to be consistent in our understanding of Jesus. He said if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

The church needed protecting from outsiders infiltrating it especially early on. These two were infiltrators. The message we fundamentalist Baptists get out of this was "hey., look out, don't go to church, you'll get zapped in the pews!!!!!" God will 'get ya' if you mess up., Nope, that is not the way God deals with us. But unfortunately many believers think so and also believe God brings sickness and death to His bride to "teach her a lesson"

Nope, we already know who comes to kill, steal and destroy and it is NOT God. Saying God kills His people under grace is not consistent with what Jesus told us about His Father.

This makes sense to me, yes. Jesus came so that we can have life. He even healed the high priest's servant's ear when Peter sliced it off.

I think what bothers me is just the thought that, if they were unbelievers, and went straight to hell after that, it's worse than if they were believers whose flesh was only delivered to destruction so they could go to heaven soon, thus, preventing more damage to the church.

I think it's good to consider, as well, that Jesus came to give us life - not just life on earth? I don't know. I guess, you're right e-g, we can only guess. lol.

 

[ladylynn]

I don't see any evidence that they were not saved. If they were not saved, why would they be dealt with so harshly? That would seem more like a deterent for others to become Christians rather than a corrective measure to bring home the seriousness of their realtionship with God

found this interesting quote on another site




Many try to maintain an appearance of spirituality and that includes overlooking sin in the pretense of love. It's not love and lying to the Holy Spirit is still as deadly as it was back then.

Liars do not go to heaven along with others who persist in sin while trying to get everyone else to believe they are holy and loving.

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psalm 139:23

The psalmist is asking God to make him aware of sins that he is not aware of in order to correct his ways. God already knows what is inside of us and is not fooled. Deception begins with the individual but God is never fooled or mocked

Again, this is not consistent with the believer under the new covenant of grace and "learning" as he prays for God to search and know his/her heart., their thoughts. See if there be some wicked way in me., ... Try me oh Savior know my heart I pray.... (song pops in my head)
Being made aware of our sins so we can do something about it...so we can correct our thinking and our foot steps...and repent..
Not going to have the chance to be doing any repenting or correction if God is going to be ZAPPING His children.
Not much 'learning' going to be happening if God kills us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes In John..and death is upon anyone who walks in the flesh...but that has little to do with the point I made here.

Why not? They were walking in the flesh by lying right?

You need to relax a little "dude"

 

[Mitspa]

This makes sense to me, yes. Jesus came so that we can have life. He even healed the high priest's servant's ear when Peter sliced it off.

I think what bothers me is just the thought that, if they were unbelievers, and went straight to hell after that, it's worse than if they were believers whose flesh was only delivered to destruction so they could go to heaven soon, thus, preventing more damage to the church.

I think it's good to consider, as well, that Jesus came to give us life - not just life on earth? I don't know. I guess, you're right e-g, we can only guess. lol.

I don't think the scriptures says these folks went to hell...If God who knows the beginning from the end seen these people would have their end in hell anyway...there is no issue. If God decided to make a example out of these people and show them mercy at His final judgment ...who can judge God? The fact is that the God of the bible killed many people who had no hope in Christ...who can judge Him? He knows who deserves what and will judge all according to His Own wisdom.

 

[ember]

Not sure of your point? ...the reason the bible gives for this judgment is to restrict the pretenders from joining the real believers ...and in essence defiling Gods Work..... That God would protect He sheep from the wolves makes perfect sense to me.

unfortunately, that is not how it is

tares grow with the wheat and they are everywhere

there is nothing in scripture to indicate that A & S were not believers but there is everything to indicate they made a profession of faith that included impressing others

it's really a mute point though, I think, to interpret and insert things that are not actually in the text , to conclude they were pagans

really not going to argue back and forth...just submitted my thoughts...that's all

 

[Mitspa]

unfortunately, that is not how it is

tares grow with the wheat and they are everywhere

there is nothing in scripture to indicate that A & S were not believers but there is everything to indicate they made a profession of faith that included impressing others

it's really a mute point though, I think, to interpret and insert things that are not actually in the text , to conclude they were pagans

really not going to argue back and forth...just submitted my thoughts...that's all

No I have made a clear biblical point in context, that they was NOT believers ...you have not dealt with that point but tried to reason based upon what you "think" ...

Clearly at this judgment the scriptures divide believers and nonbelievers from the assembly ...to deny or reject that fact is not honest in my view.

 

[Mitspa]

Why not? They were walking in the flesh by lying right?

You need to relax a little "dude"

Well...the point I made is still the point I made...many seem to understand it and some don't? I think its evident