Ananias and Sapphira

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L

ladylynn

Guest
#41
I'm not interested in arguing either. Just sharing thoughts here and for me, knowing God is not killing His children is pretty important info for us to have and use when bad things happen. The Bible says to resist the devil and he will flee. If we are thinking God is sending us sickness and death., we will certainly not resist it. In fact., as good Christians we will 'endure' it as if God sent it. When in fact, it is the devil who kills, steals and destroys., not our Father.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#42
Im not sure your dealing with my point in the context of the passage... The passage clearly separates believers and nonbelievers based on this judgment upon these two people who came into the assemble and lied before all. I think its evident based on the clear reading in context that they was not believers.
Mitspa,

I am honestly not seeing anything in the context to indicate they were not saved.

Here is the context:
Acts 5:1-10
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
KJV

Please show us what indicates that they are unsaved.
 
E

ember

Guest
#43
Again, this is not consistent with the believer under the new covenant of grace and "learning" as he prays for God to search and know his/her heart., their thoughts. See if there be some wicked way in me., ... Try me oh Savior know my heart I pray.... (song pops in my head)
Being made aware of our sins so we can do something about it...so we can correct our thinking and our foot steps...and repent..
Not going to have the chance to be doing any repenting or correction if God is going to be ZAPPING His children.
Not much 'learning' going to be happening if God kills us. :rolleyes:

IMO, you are interpreting grace to include lying and greed. Grace does not cover unrepentant sin. A+S lied to the Holy Spirit.

However, it is of note that Mitspa does not think they were saved and so killing them was fine. You are sayaing God would not kill those who are His so by implication I guess you agree with Mitspa?

I think we forget that God is above all else Holy...He does not wink at sin or make excuses for it.

Human reasoning may not like or understand these things, but I think we should remember that God had the Israelites kill off entire families...children included...and if we are honest, isn't that shocking?

God has not changed...He is still the same now as then as He simply IS..He is not created. I think we would do well to pay attention to ALL the Bible has to say about God. He loves, but it isn't love the way we think it is.

His love is pure and without deception and the only way we can approach His consuming holiness is through Christ
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#44
I'm not interested in arguing either. Just sharing thoughts here and for me, knowing God is not killing His children is pretty important info for us to have and use when bad things happen. The Bible says to resist the devil and he will flee. If we are thinking God is sending us sickness and death., we will certainly not resist it. In fact., as good Christians we will 'endure' it as if God sent it. When in fact, it is the devil who kills, steals and destroys., not our Father.
And the point is that Gods makes certain promises to His children in Christ... if folks believe that these folks where believers, you have to reject some of the greatest promises made to believers in scripture.... sure mercies of David etc...
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#45
IMO, you are interpreting grace to include lying and greed. Grace does not cover unrepentant sin. A+S lied to the Holy Spirit.

However, it is of note that Mitspa does not think they were saved and so killing them was fine. You are sayaing God would not kill those who are His so by implication I guess you agree with Mitspa?

I think we forget that God is above all else Holy...He does not wink at sin or make excuses for it.

Human reasoning may not like or understand these things, but I think we should remember that God had the Israelites kill off entire families...children included...and if we are honest, isn't that shocking?

God has not changed...He is still the same now as then as He simply IS..He is not created. I think we would do well to pay attention to ALL the Bible has to say about God. He loves, but it isn't love the way we think it is.

His love is pure and without deception and the only way we can approach His consuming holiness is through Christ
How did you get lying and greed is approved in grace, out of her post? I bet your a legalist?
Why will you not deal with the clear context of the passage?
 
E

ember

Guest
#46
lynn...I know you like Andrew Wommack and lately I have been listening to him and receiving his daily devotionals

here is todays...goes along with what I wrote (I'm not trying to win anything here...just take this at face value...no digs)

he speaks of not allowing satan to have access to us ... and that is just what Peter said to A+S...they allowed the devil access, they lied and were dealt with accordingly

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."



Matthew 24:13
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Here, Jesus teaches that the believer must persevere to receive complete salvation. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned or maintained by our own works. It has to be received by faith. However, there is effort on our part to maintain that faith. This is where holiness comes in.

Holiness will not produce relationship with God, nor will a lack of holiness make God turn away from us. He deals with us according to our faith in Jesus, not our performance. Holiness will keep Satan from stealing our faith, while a lack of holiness is an open invitation for the devil to do his worst. A person who wants to endure to the end cannot live a lifestyle that permits Satan free access to him.

Although God is not imputing our sins unto us, we cannot afford the luxury of sin because it allows Satan to have access to us. When a Christian does sin, and allows the devil an opportunity to produce death in his life, the way to stop this is to confess the sin. God is faithful and just to take the forgiveness that is already present in our born-again spirit and release it in our flesh, thereby removing Satan and his strongholds.

Holiness is a fruit and not a root of salvation. That is to say that holiness is a by-product of relationship with God; it does not produce relationship with God. It is the nature of a Christian to walk in the light, not in the dark. When we are rightly informed of who we are and what we have in Christ, then holiness will naturally flow out of us because it is our nature.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#47
Mitspa,

I am honestly not seeing anything in the context to indicate they were not saved.

Here is the context:
Acts 5:1-10
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
KJV

Please show us what indicates that they are unsaved.
I have already posted several times my point in context of the scriptures....why are you trying to argue against my point, if you don't even bother to read or deal with it?

Ananias and Sapphira was clearly NOT believers....read the passage in context.

Ac 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Here is the point...that false believers no longer came into the assembly...but more BELIEVERS where added to the assembly
 
A

Abing

Guest
#48
lynn...I know you like Andrew Wommack and lately I have been listening to him and receiving his daily devotionals
Hey I'm going through his audio teachings right now, which actually led me to asking this here. Lol. I like him too. Okay, that was an intermission. Back to topic...
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#49
God is sovereign and we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

It matters little what happens to the body of flesh. The eternal soul is preserved in Christ. In the day of redemption the body will be changed into the incorruptible.

Scripture says that the death of His saints is precious in His sight. The wicked are not so.

Do not fall into the trap that God only brings good things into your life. Job is a prime example of glorifying God in tribulation and suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#50
Ananias and Sapphira was clearly NOT believers....read the passage in context.

Ac 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Here is the point...that false believers no longer came into the assembly...but more BELIEVERS where added to the assembly

What we have is a clear division between believers and nonbelievers based on this judgment against these two...the nonbelievers where made to fear and did not join...the "believers" increased more and more.
This seems pretty clear to me?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#51
God is sovereign and we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

It matters little what happens to the body of flesh. The eternal soul is preserved in Christ. In the day of redemption the body will be changed into the incorruptible.

Scripture says that the death of His saints is precious in His sight. The wicked are not so.

Do not fall into the trap that God only brings good things into your life. Job is a prime example of glorifying God in tribulation and suffering.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Nay...in all these we are more than conquers because of Him who loves us....God does not slaughter His Children...He corrects, He chastens and is long suffering with His Children. The idea that God slaughters His children is a lie from the devil.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#52
IMO, you are interpreting grace to include lying and greed. Grace does not cover unrepentant sin. A+S lied to the Holy Spirit.

However, it is of note that Mitspa does not think they were saved and so killing them was fine. You are sayaing God would not kill those who are His so by implication I guess you agree with Mitspa?

I think we forget that God is above all else Holy...He does not wink at sin or make excuses for it.

Human reasoning may not like or understand these things, but I think we should remember that God had the Israelites kill off entire families...children included...and if we are honest, isn't that shocking?

God has not changed...He is still the same now as then as He simply IS..He is not created. I think we would do well to pay attention to ALL the Bible has to say about God. He loves, but it isn't love the way we think it is.

His love is pure and without deception and the only way we can approach His consuming holiness is through Christ

Yes, God is THRICE HOLY and then some. His standards have not ever changed. But His Holy Standard was met totally IN the body of His Son Jesus. Sin is not winked at by any stretch of the imagination when we consider what sacrifice Jesus made for us. His righteousness was imputed to us., our sin was imputed to Him. Therefore the payment Jesus made for us and giving us His righteousness no longer puts us under God's judgment. Ever.

So many new covenant believers are living under the old covenant of law when they should be seeing how God now deals with us and can deal with us JUDICIOUSLY by not counting our sins against us any longer. The payment was made and more is not called for. Yes, this is in fact grace and it does cover sin because as stated before, how to learn to walk like Christ is something we learn as we observe. We love Him because He first loved us. We are to be imitators of Christ. But if you are killed because you didn't get it right the first time., where to learn??????????

That is where grace comes in and the gift of no condemnation. Yet another reason why I do not believe A&S were believers. God doesn't ZAP His children. He does however, protect His sheep from the wolves. Jesus is our Shepherd and we are His sheep. He leads His sheep He doesn't DRIVE them. It is a beautiful picture of grace and it all ties together.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#53
Nay...in all these we are more than conquers because of Him who loves us....God does not slaughter His Children...He corrects, He chastens and is long suffering with His Children. The idea that God slaughters His children is a lie from the devil.
*sigh*

Seen and spoken from the flesh not the Spirit.

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Try to reconcile your statement with Job.

God remains sovereign.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#54
lynn...I know you like Andrew Wommack and lately I have been listening to him and receiving his daily devotionals

here is todays...goes along with what I wrote (I'm not trying to win anything here...just take this at face value...no digs)

he speaks of not allowing satan to have access to us ... and that is just what Peter said to A+S...they allowed the devil access, they lied and were dealt with accordingly

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."



Matthew 24:13
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Here, Jesus teaches that the believer must persevere to receive complete salvation. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned or maintained by our own works. It has to be received by faith. However, there is effort on our part to maintain that faith. This is where holiness comes in.

Holiness will not produce relationship with God, nor will a lack of holiness make God turn away from us. He deals with us according to our faith in Jesus, not our performance. Holiness will keep Satan from stealing our faith, while a lack of holiness is an open invitation for the devil to do his worst. A person who wants to endure to the end cannot live a lifestyle that permits Satan free access to him.

Although God is not imputing our sins unto us, we cannot afford the luxury of sin because it allows Satan to have access to us. When a Christian does sin, and allows the devil an opportunity to produce death in his life, the way to stop this is to confess the sin. God is faithful and just to take the forgiveness that is already present in our born-again spirit and release it in our flesh, thereby removing Satan and his strongholds.

Holiness is a fruit and not a root of salvation. That is to say that holiness is a by-product of relationship with God; it does not produce relationship with God. It is the nature of a Christian to walk in the light, not in the dark. When we are rightly informed of who we are and what we have in Christ, then holiness will naturally flow out of us because it is our nature.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Who is trying to justify sin in a believers life? Do you think that knowing God mercy and love for His children and that He don't deal with us based on His wrath will produce sin in believers? That's contrary to the whole of the New Testament.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#55
*sigh*

Seen and spoken from the flesh not the Spirit.

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Try to reconcile your statement with Job.

God remains sovereign.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
Well get out of the flesh and into the Spirit...

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


If you think Gods wrath is upon His children...you are in the flesh.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#56
I have already posted several times my point in context of the scriptures....why are you trying to argue against my point, if you don't even bother to read or deal with it?

Ananias and Sapphira was clearly NOT believers....read the passage in context.

Ac 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Here is the point...that false believers no longer came into the assembly...but more BELIEVERS where added to the assembly
Thank you. I see now where you are coming from. As I read the passage, I thought there was a subject break after verse 10 with verse 11 acting as a transition.

If you see verses 12 and 13 as connected, that explains the difference in our conclusions.

I still think that there is a break in thought there; but your view is certainly not unreasonable.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#57
Thank you. I see now where you are coming from. As I read the passage, I thought there was a subject break after verse 10 with verse 11 acting as a transition.

If you see verses 12 and 13 as connected, that explains the difference in our conclusions.

I still think that there is a break in thought there; but your view is certainly not unreasonable.
Well at least your looking at my point :) lol Thank you :)

Ac 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)


I see these passages are clearly connected in intention...if you take out the judgment made against A and S then verse 13 and 14 don't make any sense...in context they make perfect sense.
 
E

ember

Guest
#58
Yes, God is THRICE HOLY and then some. His standards have not ever changed. But His Holy Standard was met totally IN the body of His Son Jesus. Sin is not winked at by any stretch of the imagination when we consider what sacrifice Jesus made for us. His righteousness was imputed to us., our sin was imputed to Him. Therefore the payment Jesus made for us and giving us His righteousness no longer puts us under God's judgment. Ever.

So many new covenant believers are living under the old covenant of law when they should be seeing how God now deals with us and can deal with us JUDICIOUSLY by not counting our sins against us any longer. The payment was made and more is not called for. Yes, this is in fact grace and it does cover sin because as stated before, how to learn to walk like Christ is something we learn as we observe. We love Him because He first loved us. We are to be imitators of Christ. But if you are killed because you didn't get it right the first time., where to learn??????????

That is where grace comes in and the gift of no condemnation. Yet another reason why I do not believe A&S were believers. God doesn't ZAP His children. He does however, protect His sheep from the wolves. Jesus is our Shepherd and we are His sheep. He leads His sheep He doesn't DRIVE them. It is a beautiful picture of grace and it all ties together.

We are not going to agree here, but I think people might know I am not a legalist as I have stated that in many threads

I do realize you are not stating that I am one.

thanks
 
E

ember

Guest
#59
Who is trying to justify sin in a believers life? Do you think that knowing God mercy and love for His children and that He don't deal with us based on His wrath will produce sin in believers? That's contrary to the whole of the New Testament.
well, I guess you are having a debate here with Andrew, so I'll just step out :eek:

one thing though...you are adding some things not said by anyone here...no one has stated that God deals with us based on His wrath
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#60
well, I guess you are having a debate here with Andrew, so I'll just step out :eek:

one thing though...you are adding some things not said by anyone here...no one has stated that God deals with us based on His wrath
Well I have no clue what your talking about with Andrew? But clearly some are suggesting Gods wrath is in effect against believers....and again I ask you why you will not deal with the scriptures and points I have made in context of the scriptures?